Quality

[Smitty37]

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"

One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant.

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and with his definition of "quality" he is right. You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits.

My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price.

Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality. The slimline would still cost a lot less.

 

[robersonjr]

Very true

 

[jaeger]

This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with high quality components.

 

[Smitty37]

This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with high quality components.

I've read that a half-dozen times and I'm still not sure what you are saying....or how it relates to quality.

 

[fitty]

This may be true but in all fairness, I'll bet I can sell 100+ slimlines to 1 Emperor and make much more gross profit and have a pen that they drool over and they will have a pen with high quality components.

I would disagree with your statement. Are you accounting for the time it takes to make 100+ slimlines vs 1 Emperor? I would think the time would be comparable for making 1 of each.

Ultimately, it comes down to the value you place on the item your selling and finding a customer to agree. I'm sure $1000 slimline is possible, but a $1000 Emperor is more realistic.

 

[carpblaster]

I agree any expensive pen will get more people looking,but some of us cant afford expensive ones, slimlines can be made to look good like smitty said,To me its what a customer wants or where your selling them, no matter what it should always be done the best you can offer a customer, if i have a flaw in one i tell them or show them ,but mostly give away,I would like to see a 1000 dollar slimline and who bought it

 

[NewLondon88]

Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...

 

[nativewooder]

I have seen some of the "stuff" that people sell over the internet and at certain shows, and I won't begrudge anyone either one of the dollars they get!:wink: And granted you can sell 100 slimlines for every full-size high-end pen, but what is your market? Do you even entertain the idea of selling high quality high end fountain or roller ball pens?! In reality, I stay away from the high end because the economy in Florida has been destroyed by politics for the near term. But I tend to donate slimlines because of the ease of construction and the appreciation shown by those who get them.:biggrin:

 

[Jim Burr]

Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.

 

[terryf]

Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...

A dead horse comes to mind!!

 

[Smitty37]

Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.

What do you mean when you say "fall apart"...if you mean the tip/nib section came unscrewed from the upper barrel - that is not an uncommon problem with that style and from several threads here discussing that problem no kit manufacturer seems to be immune to it happening to one of their kits occasionally.

 

[Smitty37]

Wow.. I had to check the date on the post...

A dead horse comes to mind!!

Then don't read it.....

 

[GaryMGg]

I too have seen this discussion here before.
With the continual gains in membership, I think it's a valid discussion which bears repeating.
I frequently see the same kits turned into pens by many different craftsman.
There is a difference in the quality of the pens produced using identical inputs.

A discussion of profit is not necessarily related to Smitty's Original Post.
The OP is a reference to meeting a specification.
I would add the spec must be appropriate. :wink:

My $.02 and nearly worth what you paid for it. :biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

I too have seen this discussion here before.
With the continual gains in membership, I think it's a valid discussion which bears repeating.
I frequently see the same kits turned into pens by many different craftsman.
There is a difference in the quality of the pens produced using identical inputs.

A discussion of profit is not necessarily related to Smitty's Original Post.
The OP is a reference to meeting a specification.
I would add the spec must be appropriate. :wink:

My $.02 and nearly worth what you paid for it. :biggrin:

True - a perfect scredriver won't to the job of a pipe wrench....:tongue:

 

[glycerine]

You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!

 

[Smitty37]

You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!

Of course you can and lots of people do. That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[ghostrider]

Was just having a PM chat with another member about the same thing! Our skills matter too! I told him that I feel a little bad for my customers a year ago. My skills, technique, and education have increased dramatically...in no small part to you folks here! Instead of how many can I turn today...it's how good can I make this one look. I was using a Sierra type kit from an online vendor. I just had a 3rd one fall apart. Even though I use these for give aways...those generate a lot of sales! I tossed them and depend on a sole vendor for the "real deal" kits now. It sucks to put all that effort and heart into a pen to have it fall apart later.

I'm starting to get closer to that point. I have noticed some differences in the quality of component sets (however slight they may be), but really haven't been in this long enough to be able to rely on customer feedback for the quality of my pens (the first pens I sold were probably a little less than two years ago).

Quality is important, however I've yet to buy a component set that cost over $30. Most of what I've been buying are less than $10. I was spending much less than that for a while, and have pretty much "stocked up" on the less costly kits however, I'm gradually starting to get away from that, and am looking more toward purchasing less quantity, and more quality per/amount spent.

I'm still new to this, so that may even change eventually and I go back to the less expensive kits depending on my personal experience. As I'm not made of money, the cost of the kit has bearing on which kits I buy. Because of this, I'm really not able to give much more of an answer than that.

I do have some observations. I initially gravitated toward the lower priced kits because of cost. However, there are other factors. THE example for me is Smitty's Elegant Le Roi's. AFAIK, there really isn't anything with the same features out there. The Areo is close, but it's smaller. Before he came out with those sets, I was wanting something in the single tube (Wall Street/Sierra/Diplomat/etc...) style that came with a flattened finial, and a finial twist operation. So, I was grateful when he offered them. Still, if they had been $10 per set, I probably would not have been able to justify buying one, much less five+ at one time.

What I want? "The best quality kits, for the price of the cheapest ones."
Barring that, I wish I could be more helpful.

 

[ctubbs]

I have been working on a passell of slims this year and several last year for the troops. My first slims were purchased from a catalog vendor to remain unnamed for now. they worked mostly and I was proud of them. Last year I received form two(2) vendors here many kits, all of much better quality than the ones from the first vendor. Both the local vendors will know of whom I speak. they both strongly support the program and offer quality products and service. Alright, thanks to Smitty and Exotics. This year I got behind in making my pens. they will not make the shipment date for this year, sorry about that to both the great guys that help out so much.

Back to the question at hand, there is a tremendous variation in the quality (standardization) of components found in supposedly the same kits and price is not always a perfect indicator. Find a vendor or two or three you can depend upon to provide parts that can be depended on to remain within the specs you need for your standards. I have found my selected few and will continue to support them with my few dollars.
Charles

 

[glycerine]

You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!

Of course you can and lots of people do. That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Excuse me? It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic of this thread. The topic of the thread is "Quality" and more specifically the statement ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit". And I'll say it again, you don't need a kit at all to make a high quality pen. Therefore that statement is false. Therefore I have given my opinion on the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.
Here's a suggestion, if you don't want a response, then don't make a post.

 

[Smitty37]

You can make a high quality pen with no kit at all!

Of course you can and lots of people do. That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Excuse me? It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic of this thread. The topic of the thread is "Quality" and more specifically the statement ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit". And I'll say it again, you don't need a kit at all to make a high quality pen. Therefore that statement is false. Therefore I have given my opinion on the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD.
Here's a suggestion, if you don't want a response, then don't make a post.

And here is my suggestion, don't be so presumptive as to tell the original poster what the topic of the thread is....the topic of this post is what constitutes "quality"....not what is needed or not needed to make a quality pen.

 

[glycerine]

Smitty, stop being an @$$. You know I'm right.

 

[Smitty37]

Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"

One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant.

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and with his definition of "quality" he is right. You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits.

My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price.

Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality. The slimline would still cost a lot less.

Smitty, stop being an @$$. You know I'm right.

 

[Andrew_K99]

I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias. Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow. Both meet the exact standards.

Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality. My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.

Also, for the record you've assumed incorrect, I did not say you need a high priced kit to make a high quality pen. I said, and still believe, you need a high quality kit to make a high quality pen

AK

 

[Smitty37]

I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias. Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow. Both meet the exact standards.

Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality. My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.

Also, for the record you've assumed incorrect, I did not say you need a high priced kit to make a high quality pen. I said, and still believe, you need a high quality kit to make a high quality pen

AK

Assuming they both conform to specification they are.

The cost of the materials is not a factor in whether or not they are quality items. Conformance to their specification is the determining factor. If the diamond is specified to be pear cut and it is square cut it is out of spec and hence poor quality. It could still be worth a great deal of money.

Thats what I said you said....and I said I had no issue with that. But in the context in which you said it, it seemed to me that you were comparing a low priced kit to a high priced kit, so I took it to be related to price.

Reading it again, I still take it that way, if you meant something other then that such as a high quality low priced kit then I misunderstood.

But my point was that while we both might use the same statement about needing a high quality kit to make a high quality pen, as your first paragraph above makes clear, we wouldn't mean the same thing.

 

[glycerine]

Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"

One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant.

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and with his definition of "quality" he is right. You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits.

My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price.

Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality. The slimline would still cost a lot less.

Smitty, stop being an @$$. You know I'm right.

Yes, I read the ENTIRE post, not just what you highlighted in red...

 

[Displaced Canadian]

To answer the question can you make a high quality pen from a low quality kit I would say no because no matter what your definition of quality is it's the details that matter. I have a friend who is a pen snob, I handed him one of my pens a while ago he wrote with it and told me that it didn't write well and felt cheap. He also said I should look into getting better stuff to make them out of. Needless to say that bit of feedback has caused me to rethink how I make pens.
Smitty, I gather that your definition of quality is what we called where I'm from "within spec." And what what we called quality you would call fine craftsmanship.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

By the way, the pen snob and I are still friends. :biggrin:

 

[carpblaster]

Smitty, I took one of your creckline,and i can make it anysize i need for my son and the navy clip,due to the clip being so small and has to have a screw in round top for his rank insignia, also took your euro designer and made 2 and love them, You always got my business if you carry it,no matter the price thanks for your help before
Rodney

 

[LL Woodworks]

The quality of a "kit" regardless if it is a 24kt gold slimline or Rhodium plated Statesman may be a quality product (as defined by Smitty) while it is in the bag, but that quality can be lost in turning and assembly process (fit & finish). Also, as per Smitty's definition of quality, do you consider a 24kt gold slimline - or any 24kt gold kit - a "quality" product when the finish wears off a year or so after being sold? It met the specs when manufactured... does that make it a quality product???

 

[leehljp]

I have noticed that "quality" takes on different meanings for different people. In my small hometown, the old money folks and blue bloods can spot fake and cheap plating no mater how precise it is. Cheap thin plating that is real is still called "fake" plating to these folks. It doesn't matter how well the fit and finish of a pen is, some people can spot plating and quality of plating by color and know where to look for the stamp that reveals its quality.

My highschool physics/chemistry professor, in his '80s (and one who has some MIT connections) can spot the differences and has a book on all the tiny stamps that reveal the manufacture of origin and plating methods. If a pen, piece of jewelry or item does not have these stamps, then they can be properly presumed to be "not of quality".

I took one of my pens in to him about 4 years ago and he really liked it, then said, "Hank, you won't sell many of these to the old folks here because there is not enough real gold on it. They will spot the thin plating and no matter how great of an artist you are with the pen, your artistry is greater than the quality of the components" - in reference to the gold/silver quantity, not the mfg quality and specs.

I grew up where people talked about real silver dining wear vs plated silver. In this area, the quality is in the precious metal content. Sure you "can" have poor quality construction, but when something has real gold/silver quantity content, the price is going to be such that the maker will "usually" have high quality construction and artistic standards to match!

For this very reason, I am progressing towards kitless and looking at good quality/quantity plated silver fittings. I am not quite ready for this as I am still getting my shop in order but this is the direction that I want to go. (Good quality platings don't rub off even under moderately heavy wear!)

 

[Smitty37]

The quality of a "kit" regardless if it is a 24kt gold slimline or Rhodium plated Statesman may be a quality product (as defined by Smitty) while it is in the bag, but that quality can be lost in turning and assembly process (fit & finish).

Also, as per Smitty's definition of quality, do you consider a 24kt gold slimline - or any 24kt gold kit - a "quality" product when the finish wears off a year or so after being sold? It met the specs when manufactured... does that make it a quality product???

If a wear factor is specified - which it can be (PSI guarantees some of their 24Kt gold kits for life), then premature wear would disqualify the kit as conforming to spec.

Not really - keep in mind that once you turn and finish you have a different product that has its own specification (implied or written),

 

[Smitty37]

I have two rings, one is made of 22kt gold and 1ct. in diamonds and the other is made of 10kt gold and 1ct. in cubic zirconias. Both are identical in fit and finish and as close in appearance as the materials allow. Both meet the exact standards.

Based on what you claim, you think these are of the same quality. My opinion is they are not, far, far from it in fact.

Also, for the record you've assumed incorrect, I did not say you need a high priced kit to make a high quality pen. I said, and still believe, you need a high quality kit to make a high quality pen

AK

Based on what I claim I think that both can be in full conformance with their specifications and that in the case you describe means both would be of excellent quality.

Now is an excellent quality diamond ring the same as an excellent quality Zerconia? Obviously not, but that does not mean that both can not be of excellent quality.

You're saying (I think) that because a diamond is a better (more expensive) stone that the diamond ring is better quality. Not so - even if the diamond ring is badly made with obvious flaws it will still be more expensive but it won't be better quality.

 

[Smitty37]

Try reading the initial post again - I don't think you read it the first time through.

Today I saw a post that said ''to make a high quality pen you need a high quality kit"

One of my pen peeves is: While I have no issue with that statement - I'd say the same thing myself - but, I would not mean the same thing the person making the statement meant.

In the context of what he was illustrating he meant "high priced" and with his definition of "quality" he is right. You won't make expensive pens from inexpensive kits.

My definition of high quality is a high degree of conformance to specification regardless of price.

Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality. The slimline would still cost a lot less.

Smitty, stop being an @$$. You know I'm right.

Yes, I read the ENTIRE post, not just what you highlighted in red...

And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.

 

[Smitty37]

To answer the question can you make a high quality pen from a low quality kit I would say no because no matter what your definition of quality is it's the details that matter. I have a friend who is a pen snob, I handed him one of my pens a while ago he wrote with it and told me that it didn't write well and felt cheap. He also said I should look into getting better stuff to make them out of. Needless to say that bit of feedback has caused me to rethink how I make pens.
Smitty, I gather that your definition of quality is what we called where I'm from "within spec." And what what we called quality you would call fine craftsmanship.[/quote] My definition of quality would cover both....fine craftsmanship can still not meet spec.

As an example lets say you specify a pen, the materials etc. and also say it may not exceed 7/16th inch in diameter. You receive an very well made pen, excellent blank, great fit and an out of this world finish but it is 1/2 inch in diameter. It does not conform to spec and therefore is not acceptable quality. It can still be a great pen.

 

[bitshird]

If this were simply a discussion of Quality, (not necessarily about pens) It would be a very quick and easily answered question, Quality and Specifications are in no way connected. I can make 2 parts out of Stainless Steel, Both may look the same work the same and be in spec. suppose the parts had a +/- .005 tolerance on two parts that work in conjunction.
Longevity /quality of the piece is dependent how many hundreds of thousands of times another part also having the same machining tolerances will slide back and forth before wearing out. I make one the first part has the slot -.002 deep and the slide part is -.001, the width of the slot on the body is .+.0025 and the slide part is +.002, part 2 is all right at .+004 straight across the body and -.004 both dimensions on the slide, Both parts are well within tolerances which mean the are as specified by the persons paying for the job.
One set will outlast the other many many more times, That is the one I would call Quality.
In way too many years as a machinist, I've worked in the QC lab a couple of years. and there have been contracts where EACH and EVERY part had to be fully inspected, after we got them back from X-ray there were hole locations, gasket and O ring surfaces, thickness every possible dimension that were checked with a Coordinate Measuring Machine, But the old Brown & Sharpe I last worked on wasn't that precise it could only handle up to 5 decimal places. But did have full computer interface. Besides the gantry floating on columns supported by air it had a Ruby sensing tip that was impervious to wear. But there is no way this post can be considered any thing other than one more waste of bandwidth much like the last three pages of typographical sparing between Jerry and Smitty.
If I need a Gold toned Pen, I try and buy Gold TI at least then I know the Plating won't wear off before the first refill runs out!!!!
Quality is a thing that can best be determined by time, but of course as Einstein postulated; Time is not a lineal thing, there is no past there actually is no present, for when you consider it, it has already become a thing of the past which the universe all ready has disposed in quantum theory of course; the only thing we can look forward to is a future.
So will the damn pen still look good in the future!!! If so, then it was a Quality product when constructed.
And that alone should put an end to this silly squabble over semantics!!!!

 

[Smitty37]

If this were simply a discussion of Quality, (not necessarily about pens) It would be a very quick and easily answered question, Quality and Specifications are in no way connected. I can make 2 parts out of Stainless Steel, Both may look the same work the same and be in spec. suppose the parts had a +/- .005 tolerance on two parts that work in conjunction.
Longevity /quality of the piece is dependent how many hundreds of thousands of times another part also having the same machining tolerances will slide back and forth before wearing out. I make one the first part has the slot -.002 deep and the slide part is -.001, the width of the slot on the body is .+.0025 and the slide part is +.002, part 2 is all right at .+004 straight across the body and -.004 both dimensions on the slide, Both parts are well within tolerances which mean the are as specified by the persons paying for the job.
One set will outlast the other many many more times, That is the one I would call Quality.
In way too many years as a machinist, I've worked in the QC lab a couple of years. and there have been contracts where EACH and EVERY part had to be fully inspected, after we got them back from X-ray there were hole locations, gasket and O ring surfaces, thickness every possible dimension that were checked with a Coordinate Measuring Machine, But the old Brown & Sharpe I last worked on wasn't that precise it could only handle up to 5 decimal places. But did have full computer interface. Besides the gantry floating on columns supported by air it had a Ruby sensing tip that was impervious to wear. But there is no way this post can be considered any thing other than one more waste of bandwidth much like the last three pages of typographical sparing between Jerry and Smitty.
If I need a Gold toned Pen, I try and buy Gold TI at least then I know the Plating won't wear off before the first refill runs out!!!!
Quality is a thing that can best be determined by time, but of course as Einstein postulated; Time is not a lineal thing, there is no past there actually is no present, for when you consider it, it has already become a thing of the past which the universe all ready has disposed in quantum theory of course; the only thing we can look forward to is a future.
So will the damn pen still look good in the future!!! If so, then it was a Quality product when constructed.
And that alone should put an end to this silly squabble over semantics!!!!

Ken, as a guy who spent most of my 32 years with IBM working in the quality control arena.....I will assure you that Quality and Specifications are connected. Quality is conformance to specification.

If you want to make a pen with a long lasting plating you spec the plating to be applied to the kit parts and find a way to test that it meets spec. The test might be destructive in which case you will not test every part but you will sample test and use statistical methods to acertain whether or not the items meet spec. It works, and it is the reason the Japanese were kicking our butts in quality for so long - we invented but they perfected it and used it well.

 

[glycerine]

And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.

Stop arguing long enough to THINK about what I posted... I was actually agreeing with you. You and others are going on and on about the quality of a pen and the quality of pen kits. My point is, forget the "kit". As I said, a quality pen can be made without a kit, meaning that the quality of a pen doesn't necessarily lie in the components that are used. Now get on with your life...

 

[Smitty37]

And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.

Stop arguing long enough to THINK about what I posted... I was actually agreeing with you. You and others are going on and on about the quality of a pen and the quality of pen kits. My point is, forget the "kit". As I said, a quality pen can be made without a kit, meaning that the quality of a pen doesn't necessarily lie in the components that are used. Now get on with your life...

As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen.

Hence, you were not agreeing with me because I wasn't not talking about making a 'quality' pen.

The personal comments are not necessary.

 

[greenmtnguy]

Quality should mean conformity to high standards. Meeting a low standard is producing low quality. Somehow it seems so simple to me.

 

[glycerine]

And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.

Stop arguing long enough to THINK about what I posted... I was actually agreeing with you. You and others are going on and on about the quality of a pen and the quality of pen kits. My point is, forget the "kit". As I said, a quality pen can be made without a kit, meaning that the quality of a pen doesn't necessarily lie in the components that are used. Now get on with your life...

As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen.

Hence, you were not agreeing with me because I wasn't not talking about making a 'quality' pen.

The personal comments are not necessary.

Seriously? Pens is an EXAMPLE. The same example YOU used:
"Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality." So, yes, you were talking about making a quality pen and this is where we agree, quality has nothing to do with the kit.
And honestly, I'd say there is no focus to this discussion. I'm quite tired of you arguing with my every word, so I'll make this my last response.