Quality

[Smitty37]

And I wrote the entire post. The first sentence is simply stating why I was posting, it is obviously not the topic of the post.

Stop arguing long enough to THINK about what I posted... I was actually agreeing with you. You and others are going on and on about the quality of a pen and the quality of pen kits. My point is, forget the "kit". As I said, a quality pen can be made without a kit, meaning that the quality of a pen doesn't necessarily lie in the components that are used. Now get on with your life...

As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen.

Hence, you were not agreeing with me because I wasn't not talking about making a 'quality' pen.

The personal comments are not necessary.

Seriously? Pens is an EXAMPLE. The same example YOU used:
"Hence, under my definition a slimline can be excellent quality and an Emperor can be poor quality." So, yes, you were talking about making a quality pen and this is where we agree, quality has nothing to do with the kit.
And honestly, I'd say there is no focus to this discussion. I'm quite tired of you arguing with my every word, so I'll make this my last response.

I was not arguing with your every word....just the ones where you were and still are wrong. I certainly hope that is your last response.

 

[Andrew_K99]

...As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen...

Smitty, you have stated that quality IS conformance to specifications. You haven't started a discussion, your defending your opinion.

We are going in circles as we don't agree what the definition of quality is. You believe it is measurable (as in quality assurance in a manufacturing process) and others believe it is quite subjective (as in my ring example). If you can't accept that our definition is valid then there is no discussion to be had and this will continue to go in circles.

AK

 

[Smitty37]

...As I said, the focus of the discussion is "What IS (or should be) the meaning of Quality" not what is needed to make a quality pen...

Smitty, you have stated that quality IS conformance to specifications. You haven't started a discussion, your defending your opinion.

We are going in circles as we don't agree what the definition of quality is. You believe it is measurable (as in quality assurance in a manufacturing process) and others believe it is quite subjective (as in my ring example). If you can't accept that our definition is valid then there is no discussion to be had and this will continue to go in circles.

AK

That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.

btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.

 

[azamiryou]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

 

[leehljp]

That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.

btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.

quality |ˈkwälətē|
noun ( pl. qualities )
1 the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something: an improvement in product quality | people today enjoy a better quality of life.
• general excellence of standard or level: a masterpiece for connoisseurs of quality | [ as modifier ] : a wide choice of quality beers.
• archaic high social standing: commanding the admiration of people of quality.
• [ treated as pl. ] archaic people of high social standing: he's dazed at being called on to speak before quality.
2 a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something: he shows strong leadership qualities . . .

IF you will notice, ALL of those give credence to a relative position. There is no "absolute" in this sense, but it seems like that (an absolute) is what is being requested in the OP. Somethings are absolute and some are not. A relative quality word like "quality" can not be turned into an absolute without distorting the meaning of the word itself. And it is the nature of language is to change word meanings over decades or centuries.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

 

[Andrew_K99]

You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.

The definition of quality is "The standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind" [reference]

By definition you can compare kit A and kit B and one can be considered better quality even if the both meet specification.

As Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice expecting different results, with that I will no longer take part in this discussion.

AK

 

[GaryMGg]

I see a quality failure within. Too many typos and misspellings in these posts. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
:wink:

 

[Smitty37]

That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.

btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.

quality |ˈkwälətē|
noun ( pl. qualities )
1the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something: an improvement in product quality | people today enjoy a better quality of life.
• general excellence of standard or level: a masterpiece for connoisseurs of quality | [ as modifier ] : a wide choice of quality beers.
• archaic high social standing: commanding the admiration of people of quality.
• [ treated as pl. ] archaic people of high social standing: he's dazed at being called on to speak before quality.
2 a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something: he shows strong leadership qualities . . .

IF you will notice, ALL of those give credence to a relative position. There is no "absolute" in this sense, but it seems like that (an absolute) is what is being requested in the OP. Somethings are absolute and some are not. A relative quality word like "quality" can not be turned into an absolute without distorting the meaning of the word itself. And it is the nature of language is to change word meanings over decades or centuries.

The first definition is pretty close to what I'm saying. If you as a buyer want to buy high quality components, seller's ought to know what you mean by high quality. If I tell you that "xyz pen kit is of excellent quality" you should know what I mean. Here we are not talking in general terms most of the time. We are talking about pretty specific products mostly pens or pen components so when we say "quality" we should all try to be on the same page.

 

[Timebandit]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

 

[Smitty37]

You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.

The definition of quality is "The standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind" [reference]

By definition you can compare kit A and kit B and one can be considered better quality even if the both meet specification.

As Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice expecting different results, with that I will no longer take part in this discussion.

AK

I am fixed on a manufacturing definition because my customers are buying a manufactured product and if I say it is of good quality they should know what I mean. If, as quite a few do, they ask me about the quality of various kits, I should know what they are asking so I can give them an honest answer.

Then you don't get the last word --- even though as usual you tried:biggrin:

 

[Timebandit]

That is exactly my point - we don't agree on what quality is: therefore if you say you want a quality product there is no way for me to know what you mean.

btw nearly all manufacturers agree with my definition - and you and I are fortunate that they do.

quality |ˈkwälətē|
noun ( pl. qualities )
1the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something: an improvement in product quality | people today enjoy a better quality of life.
• general excellence of standard or level: a masterpiece for connoisseurs of quality | [ as modifier ] : a wide choice of quality beers.
• archaic high social standing: commanding the admiration of people of quality.
• [ treated as pl. ] archaic people of high social standing: he's dazed at being called on to speak before quality.
2 a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something: he shows strong leadership qualities . . .

IF you will notice, ALL of those give credence to a relative position. There is no "absolute" in this sense, but it seems like that (an absolute) is what is being requested in the OP. Somethings are absolute and some are not. A relative quality word like "quality" can not be turned into an absolute without distorting the meaning of the word itself. And it is the nature of language is to change word meanings over decades or centuries.

The first definition is pretty close to what I'm saying. If you as a buyer want to buy high quality components, seller's ought to know what you mean by high quality. If I tell you that "xyz pen kit is of excellent quality" you should know what I mean. Here we are not talking in general terms most of the time. We are talking about pretty specific products mostly pens or pen components so when we say "quality" we should all try to be on the same page.

The problem is that you want everyone to be on your page, and if they arent they are wrong. Your definition is the only right one. Why cant there be something other than your definition of it? Which there is as shown in the posts above. Yours isnt the absolute right one that all penturners should be describing. You dont even sell pens, so let it go with what the people buying pens are hearing is quality from the person they buy from, they say what they want. Quite trying to be God!

 

[Timebandit]

You're fixed on a manufacturing definition because of your background in QA/QC.

The definition of quality is "The standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind" [reference]

By definition you can compare kit A and kit B and one can be considered better quality even if the both meet specification.

As Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice expecting different results, with that I will no longer take part in this discussion.

AK

I am fixed on a manufacturing definition because my customers are buying a manufactured product and if I say it is of good quality they should know what I mean. If, as quite a few do, they ask me about the quality of various kits, I should know what they are asking so I can give them an honest answer.

Then you don't get the last word --- even though as usual you tried:biggrin:

And your customers Know what you mean.......so what are you saying? you act like people here dont know what you mean or that you sell quality products.............

 

[Smitty37]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it? No I don't.

 

[Timebandit]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it? No I don't.

Really?????????? You have already beat it into our heads many times over with many different threads. How could WE NOT know what YOU mean by it? Its quite obvious. No need to explain it again. I know your definition and that you sell Quality kits. So you should know what i mean by it. If not, i have no clue how to make you understand.

Let me ask you a question, and i want a one word answer....No More....This is a Yes or No question. Do you think that anyone who has a different definition of Quality on this matter is wrong if there definition isnt the exact same as yours? Again save your long winded explanation, just YES or NO.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it? No I don't.

Really?????????? You have already beat it into our heads many times over with many different threads. How could WE NOT know what YOU mean by it? Its quite obvious. No need to explain it again. I know your definition and that you sell Quality kits. So you should know what i mean by it. If not, i have no clue how to make you understand.

Let me ask you a question, and i want a one word answer....No More....This is a Yes or No question. Do you think that anyone who has a different definition of Quality on this matter is wrong if there definition isnt the exact same as yours? Again save your long winded explanation, just YES or NO.

NO.

How it the world can you say that unless your definition is the same as mine?
Quality: I know you think you heard what I said but I'm not sure you know that what you heard is not what I meant.:biggrin:

 

[Timebandit]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it? No I don't.

Really?????????? You have already beat it into our heads many times over with many different threads. How could WE NOT know what YOU mean by it? Its quite obvious. No need to explain it again. I know your definition and that you sell Quality kits. So you should know what i mean by it. If not, i have no clue how to make you understand.

Let me ask you a question, and i want a one word answer....No More....This is a Yes or No question. Do you think that anyone who has a different definition of Quality on this matter is wrong if there definition isnt the exact same as yours? Again save your long winded explanation, just YES or NO.

NO.

How it the world can you say that unless your definition is the same as mine?
Quality: I know you think you heard what I said but I'm not sure you know that what you heard is not what I meant.:biggrin:

Who said it wasnt?????? So i have to have your same definition to know your definition???????????????? Absurd!!!! Your definition is clear, do i need to copy/paste it??? Im not going to give my definition.....why...its not whats important. Whats important, is to not try to make everyone think the same thing as you. Just because someone deosnt, doesnt mean that there definition is wrong. Yours is right to YOU because you spent most of your life conforming to this one definition of the word Quality, when in REALITY, there are many different definitions of the word, and they are all right, not just yours.

 

[jasontg99]

DEAD HORSE.

 

[pianomanpj]

By the way, the pen snob and I are still friends. :biggrin:

Yeah, but does he now have a "cheap-feeling" pen sticking out of his temple? :biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

WE already know what you and your competitors mean by it Smitty.....this is where you are beating a dead horse. Everyone knows that you sell Quality kits by YOUR standard and no one is arguing that. You trying to make people understand your point of view, and they already do. The problem is that you dont want to except there point of view. Everyones point of view is right. There are many different definitions of the word. Your trying to be the absolute winner by being right. You are...Your a winner. You sell quality components. What are you trying to make people realize? Whats left to talk about? Let it go.....................................................

Granting that you are right Justin.....Do I know what you mean by it? No I don't.

Really?????????? You have already beat it into our heads many times over with many different threads. How could WE NOT know what YOU mean by it? Its quite obvious. No need to explain it again. I know your definition and that you sell Quality kits. So you should know what i mean by it. If not, i have no clue how to make you understand.

Let me ask you a question, and i want a one word answer....No More....This is a Yes or No question. Do you think that anyone who has a different definition of Quality on this matter is wrong if there definition isnt the exact same as yours? Again save your long winded explanation, just YES or NO.

NO.

How it the world can you say that unless your definition is the same as mine?
Quality: I know you think you heard what I said but I'm not sure you know that what you heard is not what I meant.:biggrin:

Who said it wasnt?????? So i have to have your same definition to know your definition???????????????? Absurd!!!! Your definition is clear, do i need to copy/paste it??? Im not going to give my definition.....why...its not whats important. Whats important, is to not try to make everyone think the same thing as you. Just because someone deosnt, doesnt mean that there definition is wrong. Yours is right to YOU because you spent most of your life conforming to this one definition of the word Quality, when in REALITY, there are many different definitions of the word, and they are all right, not just yours.

You spell the highlighted word wrong almost every time you use it, as you did above...correct spelling is "their"...but have I ever suggested that I don't know what you mean? No because I do know what you mean. Have I ever suggested you change your spelling? No.

Unlike that example though. I do not know what you mean if use the word "quality"....now you say you do know what I mean when I use it, but you also say it might not mean that when you use it. If it means something else when you use how am I to know what you mean? I am not a mind reader.

 

[Smitty37]

Just so you understand - I do know there are many ways to use the word "quality" and I do use most of them myself. I talk about spending "quality" time with my grand kids. I talk about the "quality" of life and the "quality" of my TV picture, just like almost everyone else does. The word used like that is very subjective and we all know that.

If you say you had some quality time with your kids or grand kids, I can only generally assume that you probably enjoyed it, nothing else - but that's all I need to know in that instance.

On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit. So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.

Member's here make a lot of inquiries regarding quality of components and if we are not using a fairly precise definition they get a lot of meaningless answers. I personally get asked about quality lots of times and I do like to be able to give honest answers.

Someone suggested that because I don't sell pens (I do, just not very many) I let people define quality for their pens in their own way because they are selling them. I do - I have never suggested to anyone how to describe their pens or taken issue with anyone's description.

To those who say this is beating a dead horse, I would say we get probably a few hundred new members a month here, so the fact that many members have seen something before doesn't mean everyone has.

We don't throw out the arithmetic course because last years class has already taken it....we do get asked the same questions repeatedly and always will so long as we accept new members.

 

[leehljp]

On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit. So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.

Member's here make a lot of inquiries regarding quality of components and if we are not using a fairly precise definition they get a lot of meaningless answers. I personally get asked about quality lots of times and I do like to be able to give honest answers.

Someone suggested that because I don't sell pens (I do, just not very many) I let people define quality for their pens in their own way because they are selling them. I do - I have never suggested to anyone how to describe their pens or taken issue with anyone's description.

While I don't think you are necessarily beating a dead horse, you ARE flirting with an exercise in futility! :wink:

I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning. "Use a light touch" is one such phrase. To a 100LB person they never will get something turned using their concept of "light touch". Conversely, to a 250lb person, they will drive a scraper all the way through soft wood using a "light touch". To a small person, moderate pressure is lighter than light pressure to a large person.

Time is another. It only takes a few seconds for CA to dry/cure. To some, if it is more than 3 seconds that is too long. To others, 30 seconds is about right. Lightly coating with CA is another. To some this is a few swipes of CA with Paper Towel, to others, it means uniform, consistent and total but minimal thickness as measured by calipers.

With as many members as we have here and with the varied personnel and interests, you will never get everyone on the same page. I just posted a comment on another thread and mentioned "TBC". One fellow who is active and been on this daily forum for 3 years asked "What is TBC?" Can't tell you how many threads that that in it, and articles in the library mention it including some dedicated to that subject only.

My definition of Quality is the amount of gold or silver in it and that the degree of fit and finish of the blank and components match - as the content (gold/silver quantity) goes up. $500 to $1000 artistic aesthetics on a $50 - $100 component pen just don't sit right to me. It is kinda like putting a finely made soft pine frame around a Rembrandt.

 

[Smitty37]

On the other hand if you say "XYZ is a quality pen kit." it ought to mean something more than that you like the kit. So I think the meaning (in the context that the word is usually used here) should be a bit more precise than in the first example.

Member's here make a lot of inquiries regarding quality of components and if we are not using a fairly precise definition they get a lot of meaningless answers. I personally get asked about quality lots of times and I do like to be able to give honest answers.

Someone suggested that because I don't sell pens (I do, just not very many) I let people define quality for their pens in their own way because they are selling them. I do - I have never suggested to anyone how to describe their pens or taken issue with anyone's description.

While I don't think you are necessarily beating a dead horse, you ARE flirting with an exercise in futility! :wink:

I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning. "Use a light touch" is one such phrase. To a 100LB person they never will get something turned using their concept of "light touch". Conversely, to a 250lb person, they will drive a scraper all the way through soft wood using a "light touch". To a small person, moderate pressure is lighter than light pressure to a large person.

Time is another. It only takes a few seconds for CA to dry/cure. To some, if it is more than 3 seconds that is too long. To others, 30 seconds is about right. Lightly coating with CA is another. To some this is a few swipes of CA with Paper Towel, to others, it means uniform, consistent and total but minimal thickness as measured by calipers.

With as many members as we have here and with the varied personnel and interests, you will never get everyone on the same page. I just posted a comment on another thread and mentioned "TBC". One fellow who is active and been on this daily forum for 3 years asked "What is TBC?" Can't tell you how many threads that that in it, and articles in the library mention it including some dedicated to that subject only.

My definition of Quality is the amount of gold or silver in it and that the degree of fit and finish of the blank and components match - as the content (gold/silver quantity) goes up. $500 to $1000 artistic aesthetics on a $50 - $100 component pen just don't sit right to me. It is kinda like putting a finely made soft pine frame around a Rembrandt.

I agree with that. But, people are now aware that the issue exists.

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me is that so many take it personal and don't seem to recognize that they are as adamant and arbitrary in their opinion as I am in mine. Someone makes a bunch of posts disagreeing with me and not changing their opinion one iota than tells me that I'm being unreasonable because I didn't change mine to agree with them.

 

[Timebandit]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

 

[Smitty37]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

Explain?

 

[Timebandit]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

Explain?

Your bothered that people disagree with you..........need a picture

 

[Smitty37]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

Explain?

Your bothered that people disagree with you..........need a picture

:biggrin:And you of course are not bothered by people who disagree with you???????:biggrin:

 

[Timebandit]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

Explain?

Your bothered that people disagree with you..........need a picture

:biggrin:And you of course are not bothered by people who disagree with you???????:biggrin:

Nope, we all are our own people and have opinions. Im not botered because we disagree. We actually have the same opinion, in regards to Quality Control, thats two words not one. On the matter of Quality, we disagree, as you see them as the same and i (and many others)see them as different. Your opinion, or disagreeing with me bothers me not one bit. It is your trying to make everyone else say the exact thing as you and if they disagree with you, you get bothered, that bothers me. Thats not your opinion that im bothered by, that is your personality.

Il let you have the last word on this one......................

 

[Smitty37]

What bothers me more than people disagreeing with me

Here lies the problem................

Explain?

Your bothered that people disagree with you..........need a picture

:biggrin:And you of course are not bothered by people who disagree with you???????:biggrin:

Nope, we all are our own people and have opinions. Im not botered because we disagree. We actually have the same opinion, in regards to Quality Control, thats two words not one. On the matter of Quality, we disagree, as you see them as the same and i (and many others)see them as different. Your opinion, or disagreeing with me bothers me not one bit. It is your trying to make everyone else say the exact thing as you and if they disagree with you, you get bothered, that bothers me. Thats not your opinion that im bothered by, that is your personality.

Il let you have the last word on this one......................

Yes, I am trying to get everyone to agree on a common definition of quality as it applies to pen kits. So that when we talk about quality among different kits and manufacturers we are on the same page....I don't think that is at all unreasonable.

It does not bother me that people disagree with me - I've been married for 50 years and have 4 feminist daughters - I'm used to being disagreed with and being outnumbered.:biggrin:

 

[azamiryou]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

Of course they'd like to know, but what's interesting is that they think they do know. They have their own opinion of what the word means, and the base assumption is that you're talking about the same thing.

For me, a high-quality pen kit is one that (if assembled properly) looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. Your "highest quality" kit is the one that in your judgement has the best combination of good looks, functionality, and durability. I also accept implicitly that this is a matter of opinion, experience, and quite likely marketing goals - and not based on objective measurements.

If this is not what you mean, then I will be mislead by your statement. In which case, you can:

• Try to educate your buyers as to what you mean by "quality". To which I say, good luck with that.
• Change your wording so that you aren't using words in ways that the general public does not. Instead, use "plain English" to say what you mean.

You are not alone in this battle - it's a notorious problem for scientists, who use many words with very specific meanings that are quite different from how the public at large uses them - "theory", "bias", "error".

 

[GaryMGg]

I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning.

Ahem. I beg to differ :biggrin:

I was taught that when meaning matters, it is necessary to "Operationally define" the terms being used for the foundation of the discussion.
Thus, one might define a specific color using the Pantone Matching System (PMS) and everyone would know what shade of green Pantone 7725 U is.

Meanings do change and that's why, I believe, the terms must be defined so we can agree what they mean in the context of the user(s) on this forum.
So, when someone starts a thread about a term like "Quality" and they also define the term, in that specific thread, that's the meaning which should be discussed unless they're asking for a debate about their definition.
But, if they want to define the term for all threads on the IAP, they're going to have a lot of discussion, disagreement, and they'll likely have to sell a lot of Girl Scout Cookies to make it stick. :biggrin::biggrin:

 

[leehljp]

I agree with that. But, people are now aware that the issue exists.

Contrary to what you "think":
1. even those that started reading this thread in the beginning have given up on this thread,
2. The majority are nowhere near the theme you want, which is "awareness of the issue".

3. Awareness of ANY issue is only relevant to any one person at the very time the issue happens. And no matter if the issue has been discussed 1000 literal times on this forum, an average person in 7 years of regular checking in - will NOT have read the previous 1000 posts (of that issue, in this case "quality") because it did not concern them previously.

Again - making "all" regulars (people) aware is an exercise in futility. IF you want to be successful at all in this matter - Think of it as if you are a school teacher and each year, you have to teach the same thing over and over again. And Good Teachers know this and accept this as who they are and what they do.

One time posting on what quality "should be" - for awareness sake - is lost deep in past posts come next week. That is life.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not so unusual that a word is a "term of art" with a specific meaning in one industry, and also a much looser meaning in lay language. And possibly also conflicting specific meanings in other industries.

To the typical pen buyer, I'm sure that "high quality" means it looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. This has nothing to do with whether the pen component manufacturing was on-spec; it has everything to do with whether the pen looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart.

How about the typical pen component set buyer? I sell component sets to typical turners as do most of my competitors - the turners might or might not sell completed pens to typical pen buyers. Wouldn't they like to know what I and my competitors mean when we say "This is the best quality component I sell." ?

Of course they'd like to know, but what's interesting is that they think they do know. They have their own opinion of what the word means, and the base assumption is that you're talking about the same thing.

For me, a high-quality pen kit is one that (if assembled properly) looks good, works well, and doesn't fall apart. Your "highest quality" kit is the one that in your judgement has the best combination of good looks, functionality, and durability. I also accept implicitly that this is a matter of opinion, experience, and quite likely marketing goals - and not based on objective measurements.

If this is not what you mean, then I will be mislead by your statement. In which case, you can:

• Try to educate your buyers as to what you mean by "quality". To which I say, good luck with that.
• Change your wording so that you aren't using words in ways that the general public does not. Instead, use "plain English" to say what you mean.

You are not alone in this battle - it's a notorious problem for scientists, who use many words with very specific meanings that are quite different from how the public at large uses them - "theory", "bias", "error".

Sure they do...but why should they have to be "surprised" to find out they don't.

 

[Timebandit]

I agree with that. But, people are now aware that the issue exists.

Again - making "all" regulars (people) aware is an exercise in futility. IF you want to be successful at all in this matter - Think of it as if you are a school teacher and each year, you have to teach the same thing over and over again. And Good Teachers know this and accept this as who they are and what they do.

One time posting on what quality "should be" - for awareness sake - is lost deep in past posts come next week. That is life.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/quality-98458/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/quality-92955/

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/quality-vs-luxury-65400/

Second class this year

 

[Smitty37]

I agree with that. But, people are now aware that the issue exists.

Contrary to what you "think":
1. even those that started reading this thread in the beginning have given up on this thread, This is what you "think"
2. The majority are nowhere near the theme you want, which is "awareness of the issue". Ditto
3. Awareness of ANY issue is only relevant to any one person at the very time the issue happens. And no matter if the issue has been discussed 1000 literal times on this forum, an average person in 7 years of regular checking in - will NOT have read the previous 1000 posts (of that issue, in this case "quality") because it did not concern them previously. Ditto

Again - making "all" regulars (people) aware is an exercise in futility. IF you want to be successful at all in this matter - Think of it as if you are a school teacher and each year, you have to teach the same thing over and over again. And Good Teachers know this and accept this as who they are and what they do.

One time posting on what quality "should be" - for awareness sake - is lost deep in past posts come next week. That is life.

You'd be surprised at how many people here can call up a thread from an earlier time. At least I am.

 

[NewLondon88]

I hate to do this

 

[Timebandit]

I hate to do this

LOL!!!!! I laughed loud on that one!!!

 

[leehljp]

I learned a long time ago that the same word(s) mean different things to different people and I "ain't gonna change them" with my meaning.

Ahem. I beg to differ :biggrin:

I was taught that when meaning matters, it is necessary to "Operationally define" the terms being used for the foundation of the discussion.
Thus, one might define a specific color using the Pantone Matching System (PMS) and everyone would know what shade of green Pantone 7725 U is.

Meanings do change and that's why, I believe, the terms must be defined so we can agree what they mean in the context of the user(s) on this forum.
So, when someone starts a thread about a term like "Quality" and they also define the term, in that specific thread, that's the meaning which should be discussed unless they're asking for a debate about their definition.
But, if they want to define the term for all threads on the IAP, they're going to have a lot of discussion, disagreement, and they'll likely have to sell a lot of Girl Scout Cookies to make it stick. :biggrin::biggrin:

I agree with you that it would be great, its just that the masses will not read or adopt the defined. You mentioned Pantone, and that is a great standard for defining, however in the case here we are not under any authority that makes people conform to a norm, and besides that gray here is not gray somewhere else. They use "grey" and they are right.

There is a HUGE difference when you work for a company or organization that can fire you (clients drop out) if you don't conform to standards versus being in a community that features the differences and individuality. When people don't have to change wording they won't.

Colonel is pronounced kur - nal. Why? because the educated and organized of England chose to name the leader of a column "colonel" and on documents over the years wrote it as "colonel". However, the masses of the people kept using the spoken word that was previously used which was "kurnel". Over the course of a century, Colonel was spoken phonetically as kurnel.

You can't change some events with "orders" or "awareness" only. That can only be accomplished through their "values" system.

In your "beg to differ" you added a value that will cause change, and that value is - that they can get fired or client will quit if a standard is not conformed to. (Sorry for ending with a preposition.) People will value their jobs, so they will conform most of the time or quit or get fired.

On this forum there is no incentive values to change what people have been holding onto for most of their life. I will not change mine, as I value precious metal content in the basis for determining what quality is. And this is not a company that will fire me so, no that won't work for me, nor will it (IMHO) change others.

IF people want to find a standard to conform to voluntarily, there needs to be a common value presented for them to want to do it.

One other thing I learned a long time ago: In voluntary situations - You can't change most people's lives by arguing truths and standards, - you only push most people away doing that. You have a MUCH better chance at changing them through their value system - i.e. what they value.

When you work in an "industry" and are under authority, that is a different story!


NOW, If Smitty were to propose a kind of standard so that we could all be on the same page, - that is a value to come together. To throw it out for discussion and opinion, that is an argument, which is usually divisive, as if we didn't already know.

 

[Smitty37]

Nah! you love it.:biggrin:

I hate to do this

 

[NewLondon88]

In your "beg to differ" you add a value in that will cause change, and that value is that they can get fired or client will quit if a standard is not conformed to. (Sorry for ending with a preposition.)

Hank.. whenever I run into a situation where I'm about to end
a sentence with a preposition, I just add the word 'Poopoohead' at the
end. Even if it isn't correct, it stops people from noticing my foe par :tongue: