Would you want a forum for critiquing pens?

[nativewooder]

My two cents is that Constructive critiques have their place but harsh critiques have no place at all.

 

[BSea]

If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...

I agree. I really dislike the post that say "I don't like the shape". If there are critical remarks that offer alternatives, then that's a different story.

While I don't see the need for a separate forum for this, if one is created, then that's where I'll post my work.

 

[booney0717]

Love the idea! I realy dont care if somebody does'nt like one of my pens as long as they are willing to tell me why! Thats the reason i post in the show off your pens forum. I'm new to pen turning and welcome everyones comments(good or bad). Thats the only way a newbie like me will improve.

 

[Carl Fisher]

Ok, just to test out the concept of asking for honest critique, I threw up a pen from a few months back to see how it goes. I have some critiques of my own against it but want to see how the population at large offers their input.

 

[peregrinerose]

I don't post in the 'show off your pens' because I know it's just going to be a lot of fluff and 'good jobs', which is great for my ego, but otherwise has no productive value. I'd rather spend my time working on more pens than uploading pics. If there was a true critique forum, THAT I would definitely upload to. I'm here to learn to be better at woodworking in general, not just pens/turning, as I'm also working on a cabinetry degree. I learn the most from the criticisms, especially when combined with some options on how to solve the problem.

 

[Andrew_K99]

If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...

I agree. I really dislike the post that say "I don't like the shape". If there are critical remarks that offer alternatives, then that's a different story.

While I don't see the need for a separate forum for this, if one is created, then that's where I'll post my work.

The problem with shape (or colour combinations) is that there is no right awswer. I really dislike slims that have the shrunken waist line but there are lots of people making them so obvious it's just my preference. I also don't like gold as the primary component colour but tons of those are made.

If this sub-forum were to open comments should be limited to fit and finish and quality of the pen not design choices unless we want to open that can of worms.

 

[Gilrock]

Is that why I don't get many responses in SYOP? I didn't know I had to ask for comments. :biggrin:

I just assume my pen sucks if only 3 people say anything. The pen I have in my profile photo is my favorite pen of everything I've made and I got the least amount of feedback for it. So I ended up not posting much there anymore. To be honest it seems like certain people always get more feedback than others...I've often thought I'd like to do a test where I mail a pen to one of the popular posters and see how many responses there would be if they posted the photo instead of me.

 

[Andrew_K99]

Is that why I don't get many responses in SYOP? I didn't know I had to ask for comments. :biggrin:

I just assume my pen sucks if only 3 people say anything. The pen I have in my profile photo is my favorite pen of everything I've made and I got the least amount of feedback for it. So I ended up not posting much there anymore. To be honest it seems like certain people always get more feedback than others...I've often thought I'd like to do a test where I mail a pen to one of the popular posters and see how many responses there would be if they posted the photo instead of me.

I've had the same thought ... maybe some people only check out the pens of 'popular' members and ignore the others?

 

[mredburn]

Gil Some members wont criticize your work unless asked in the posting. One of those " if you cant say anything nice" type of deals. We have had members state that they don't want their work picked apart they just want to share it as it is. As you post comments in other members posts they tend to return the favor as they get to know you and recognize your name. So some of the popular members are the ones that offered favorable comments on other members pens first.

 

[Gilrock]

I just noticed noticed I couldn't even spell SOYP right....lol.

I'm not in favor of a new forum section because I already have trouble keeping up with all the sub forum sections. I normally don't frequent this forum much unless an interesting topic name shows up in the recent list. I only knew this thread was here because it was mentioned in SOYP.

I've tended to not have as much time to respond to pens I see posted so I've tried to at least add my name to the "Like" list to let the poster know I viewed the pen and liked it if I don't think I had anything meaningful to say other than "Nice pen".

I've also seen pens I didn't like and have abstained from responding because I thought it was more of my personal taste. Most of the time my complaints would be when I see pens I think are too fat. I don't like what I call "pregnant" pens. I saw one recently that was a Sierra style and if it's too fat the curve doesn't seem to flow into the pen kit right to me. But I don't like coming off like I make too many negative comments so I've been quiet in that area lately.

 

[jasontg99]

YES!!! I think it is a great idea to have this and a separate SOYP.

 

[jasontg99]

IMHO...there should be a way for the poster of the pen to remain anonymous, at least for a while. That way, the critique could truly be of the craftsmanship of the pen, and nothing else.

Awesome idea, John. This would even the playing field.

 

[Mapster]

I agree with Oklahoman, but I feel if we had a forum it would work out well because only those who are looking for the bad and the ugly will post there. The people who are still looking for the pat on the back good can still go to SOYP...

I think it is a great idea! I also believe it would be useful if we could somehow monitor it though, much like the marketplace is now. If someone is abusing it, I believe we should be able to ban the person from the forum (if that is possible). Then all of us could get on with our honest critiques and we could all learn from it. The few that cause problems shouldn't be able to ruin it for all of us! I think we would all benefit from the forum

 

[jeff]

Sorry to be late to the party here!

We had a critiques forum in 2005 for about 6 months. I opened it after a discussion much like this one:biggrin:

Some may recall that it closed after some particularly nasty arguments.

That said, I'm not opposed to trying again if we could get a volunteer to write a good set of guidelines and help keep house.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I hope that a new section wouldn't then dissuade people from posting pens at all, for fear of choosing between the 'pat on the back' section vs. the 'harsh comments' section.

Personally, I that any new section will essentially just replace SOYP, for how many will want to admit that they want positive reinforcement by posting a pen in there?

 

[Chrisjan]

I quickly read through most of the posts and would like to put my conclusions, opinions and requirements out to you.(remember I'm a brand new member and new pen turner);

1) I discovered IAP through image searches on Google - I wanted to be inspired! SOYP did just that. It opened a world of possibilities in my mind...

2) I came back to read the posts to gain knowledge - I wanted to investigate and explore. I got hold of some acrylics, I tried ca as a finish and failed horribly.

4) I registered as a member in order to post questions - I wanted advice... and that's the value of the forums discussions and opinions ... and the encouragement to try.

5) I will start posting pictures to get critique from the experienced - I want to improve my methods and products. I'm sure as hell not gonna entertain a fellow newby flaming my choice of hard woods or castings or any other design factor if his work looks like crap!

With those points made, I ask that you keep SOYP to have good craftsmen show of their prize workmanship - it inspires other more than the pat on the back does in encouragement for the poster anyhow.

But I would like the option to submit my work to master craftsman for critique. Someone whose been around the bend of the mandrel, someone who earned the right to comment on how $#!tty I apply the ca and not properly polish off the radial sanding marks - because my friends here at home gives the encouragement, they don't know of any better!

Conclusion: Both SOYP and Critique Board have a place, everybody can post in SOYP and then we encourage and inspire, but can the master craftsmen comment critically on specifically submitted pens for the sake of improvement... the people who've been around and demonstrated workmanship can mentor us aspiring artisans... please?

 

[mredburn]

As I think this over I conclude that there is both a place for SOYP and A Critical Review Forum. A pen could be posted into both forums for different reasons. I don't think that the Soyp forum would fail. Many of us post there with "questions and Comments welcome" as well as the "see my pretty pen" and still would. The Critical Review Forum could prove a useful tool if, and that may be the big " IF". We police ourselves for honest, sometimes blunt remarks, without being inflammatory, insulting or a personal attack. The guide lines can be written and enforced but I don't see a way to keep personal opinions out of the area of Design critique. Color combinations, dimensions, and shapes all come under personal preferences and they need to be allowed to be stated. Its easy to submit a critique that is about a technical or fit or measurable mistake and then submit a solution to that problem. But design issues are just as critical as any other mistake made and can fail a pen just as fast, both for acceptance by both the pen community and the general purchasing public. Personal preferences in a critique, "I don't like fat pens" would have to be taken by the original poster with a "grain of salt" Understanding that every one has a personal opinion somewhere. I would be willing to work with others to develop rules and code of conduct and helping to keep an eye on it. Im sure there are others as well

 

[Padre]

There was one, now there isn't. Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[76winger]

Well I'm still a relative newbie compared to many on these forums, but here's my shot at some guidelines:

I would like think that SOYP could remain pretty much as it currently is:
A place to show off your pen making handiwork and craftsmanship for the purpose of inspiring other members, new and experienced alike.

Any pen of any level can be posted there, whether it's the first pen you've ever made using a Bic refill stuck in a twig to the most elaborate multi-segmented, self-cast, kitless that took years to perfect. It's all about showing off what you do and inspiring others to reach higher, without fear of being flamed, yet open to criticism and opinions if you ask for it.

​

The new Critique Submissions section, or whatever it would be called, would be a place to post your work for evaluation and honest constructive comments.

• I don't think a rating system would apply so much and shouldn't be used.
• I would like to see higher resolution photos (say double or triple current restrictions) allowed in order for reviewers to see the details and be empowered to offer more accurate evaluations.
• About any pen making level should be allowed here as well, so long as its understood that the posting is for the purpose of receiving critical evaluations of their work, along with suggestions of ways that will help get them to the next level in their pen making.
• It should be made clear to the poster that although some comments might be seem harsh, they've been given with concern towards teaching him or her how to improve upon what they've already accomplished and striving for continued improvement.
• It should be made clear to the those commenting on the submission are expected to give honest, specific criticism, and offer suggestions for ways to improve upon what they cited. This could even grow to include several people spotting the same issue, but having different solutions, which would give the Original Poster options to try and find which works best for them.
  
• Opinions on shape and artistic flair, I think, should be discussed at some level, especially if it goes so far as to hinder the ability to actually use the pen as a writing instrument. But if the comment sounds like a feeling or opinion, with no critical benefit to how the poster can improve upon what they've made, then it should not enter the conversation.
• These are postings from people with a desire to improve their craft, not to create arguments.
  

 

[Dalecamino]

What qualifications are required, to be a critic? Who are the critics? Anyone? I know a few, personally, and trust their judgment. How many posts would you read that say....the shape of the nose cone should be narrower...? Just asking!

I would probably participate if Mike Redburn would run it :biggrin::biggrin::tongue:

 

[RetiredJake]

If the comments are truly constructive criticism, then this would be great. The moderators could cutout the catty comments.

 

[kruzzer]

How about being restricted to only a rating system? Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to
5 scrap it and re-do. Then you could leave it to the originator to PM the critiquer to discuss.
This way the moderators won't have to spend too much time monitoring???

 

[Katya]

I'm a novice turner, but have been lurking here for a long while<g>. I've been turning for just over a year and am still doing kit pens. I'd like to add my $0.02 worth. I check out the SOYP daily, as it's been very inspiring and has helped me learn about pen-making in all areas.

I understand why some would be reluctant to give negative critiques in that forum.. and I think the need for another sub forum would do the job nicely. Its name should reflect its purpose- Critique Corner, Black board, Critical review, etc. I'd like to be able to post a pen and get comments about the shape as well as the fit & finish. That serves a purpose that is distinct from SOYP.

But I also think the group could also come up with some guidelines as have been mentioned here, about personal preference, rude comments and the like. I look forward to using this new forum to really work on improving my pen-making skills.

Thanks,
Catherine

 

[76winger]

How about being restricted to only a rating system? Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to
5 scrap it and re-do. Then you could leave it to the originator to PM the critiquer to discuss.
This way the moderators won't have to spend too much time monitoring???

I think the down side of a rating system is that you couldn't effectively list all the possibilities of what might need commented on.

Plus people would be quick to click a button to vote on a quick response and not take the time to offer suggestions for improvement. And the discussion in open is beneficial to all, so everyone learns from the forum whether they post anything or not. There's a lot of people who lurk and read, and learn from that, without really getting involved in the conversations and postings.

 

[chriselle]

I'd be down with it. But, there is no point of reference to how you would critique. I would critique a novice turners pen a lot different than I would an expert.

Maybe a "submitted as ________.".... where you fill in novice, intermediate or expert so we have some boundaries to "judge".... I mean critique:wink: by.

 

[WWAtty]

How about being restricted to only a rating system? Say 1 - 5 where 1 is great I'd buy it to
5 scrap it and re-do. Then you could leave it to the originator to PM the critiquer to discuss.
This way the moderators won't have to spend too much time monitoring???

I think the down side of a rating system is that you couldn't effectively list all the possibilities of what might need commented on.

Plus people would be quick to click a button to vote on a quick response and not take the time to offer suggestions for improvement. And the discussion in open is beneficial to all, so everyone learns from the forum whether they post anything or not. There's a lot of people who lurk and read, and learn from that, without really getting involved in the conversations and postings.

One of my favorite sites (when I'm not here) is beeradvocate.com, where users give craft brews 1-5 ratings on appearance, smell, taste, etc. We could do something similar and have categories like finish, fit, style, color coordination, etc. Perhaps include a box for a few constructive comments.

 

[Texatdurango]

I don't think the forum would work! Why, because people just can not take criticism... period! Just look at some of the comments in the SOYP forum, if it's not the standard "nice pen, great job", "WOW" or "I'm years away from that type of work" and someone actually tries to offer some honest critiquing, the author quite often goes out of his way explaining or defending his reasons for doing what he did. So did the critique help or just upset the author?

It is this defensive nature that will cause a lot of feelings to get hurt, especially with some of the newer turners who crank out what they feel is a masterpiece, complete with their "oops" bands when someone tells them what they really think of the pen.

Just my opinion.

 

[Texatdurango]

Sorry to be late to the party here!

We had a critiques forum in 2005 for about 6 months. I opened it after a discussion much like this one:biggrin:

Some may recall that it closed after some particularly nasty arguments.

That said, I'm not opposed to trying again if we could get a volunteer to write a good set of guidelines and help keep house.

Jeff, did you catch Padre's post a few down from yours?

There was one, now there isn't. Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Probably the most insightful post in the entire thread!

 

[76winger]

I don't think the forum would work! Why, because people just can not take criticism... period! Just look at some of the comments in the SOYP forum, if it's not the standard "nice pen, great job", "WOW" or "I'm years away from that type of work" and someone actually tries to offer some honest critiquing, the author quite often goes out of his way explaining or defending his reasons for doing what he did. So did the critique help or just upset the author?

It is this defensive nature that will cause a lot of feelings to get hurt, especially with some of the newer turners who crank out what they feel is a masterpiece, complete with their "oops" bands when someone tells them what they really think of the pen.

Just my opinion.

See, this is exactly WHY I believe it WOULD be beneficial.

SOYP is for showing off, and inspiring others. Veterans can inspire newbies and newbies will sometimes inspire veterans, and all variations in between. It's good for everyone generally.

Pen Critiques would be for just that: honest constructive criticism. But enter with a thick skin and stay out if you get your feelings hurt easily as it's not for those who want to fool themselves into thinking they've made the perfect pen. Our works are progress, not perfection. And this would need to be clearly indicated in the forum description or rules.

Jeff, did you catch Padre's post a few down from yours?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padre
There was one, now there isn't. Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Dave Ramsey regulaly quotes the 12-steppers as saying this as well. Maybe that's where they got it!

 

[Jgrden]

I think this is a great idea. A IAP rating.
The judges need some credibility. The criteria needs to be clear (tolerances, finish, difficulty, caagory [clay, wood, metal, bone, etc.] craftsmanship) and it needs to be more than one person. The webmasters need to set up a way for the judges to communicate. The decision should be quick. Saying this, my work would be lucky to get a 1 out of 10 rating. To start things off we should all be involved in picking the judges. This will in itself be a long process. Perhaps the existing moderators could assist with this. IMHO

 

[StephenM]

I come from a design background and in school, critique was part of the program to help you develop as a designer. Without good input, it's difficult to grow. That said, it should be limited to constructive criticism - insults and ridicule have no place and should be dealt with quickly. If all someone can offer are insults and ridicule it is either jealousy or ignorance.

If at all possible, when you give criticism, make it constructive - "Your segmented pen has some tearout at the joints - are you keeping your tools sharp and sharpening again as needed while turning?" Instead of " Nice pen but I see tearout at the joints".

There are a quite a few friends on here so there will be the occasional friendly poke but make it plain that you know them and it's just in fun so somebody else doesn't jump to the wrong conclusion, try to defend them and end up making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[its_virgil]

We tried it once several years ago and it was a bust. It didn't last. It didn't work!! Feelings were hurt. Why go there again? Critiquing an object from a picture is difficult at best. Fit and finish are difficult to acertain from a picture. (can you say photoshop? finish enhancing? fit adjustments?) We have a good place here. If someone wants a critique of a pen they can post in SOYP and ask for an honest critique. Let's leave this can of worms at rest.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Jgrden]

Well Virgil. I am not sure what to say, but it would not be very nice. Cold water on a hot idea that could have been worked out.

 

[its_virgil]

I do not have any decision making powers here nor do I have any influence on those who do. I just stated my opinion but I suppose I;m not allowed to do that. I'm not the only one who tossed cold water on your so called "hot idea." Where are your remarks to the others? And we wonder why a critique forum will not work? I've not heard any news that it won't be worked out.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Well Virgil. I am not sure what to say, but it would not be very nice. Cold water on a hot idea that could have been worked out.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I think this is a great idea. A IAP rating.
The judges need some credibility. The criteria needs to be clear (tolerances, finish, difficulty, caagory [clay, wood, metal, bone, etc.] craftsmanship) and it needs to be more than one person. The webmasters need to set up a way for the judges to communicate. The decision should be quick. Saying this, my work would be lucky to get a 1 out of 10 rating. To start things off we should all be involved in picking the judges. This will in itself be a long process. Perhaps the existing moderators could assist with this. IMHO

I'm rather confused. Has this morphed into a psuedo pen-guild vetting process now? I thought the discussion was concerning some members' idea to make a critique forum. I don't see how a panel of experts/judges fits in with this.

One of my biggest pet peeves on forums in general is 'reputation ranking'. Wouldn't pen rankings be even more divisive and hurtful, especially if you're somewhat proud of your pen and others are not kind?

One of the greatest things about the IAP, in my mind, is the 'homey' nature, and the camaraderie - I would hate to see anything jeopardize the nature and feel of the forum

 

[76winger]

I don't think we've been discussing a forum where pens would've judged by a panel or anyone else. Rather a forum to learn from mistakes and how to not make them again.

And maybe this has been done before but rather than assuming it won't work this time because it didn't last time is a pretty short sided viewpoint. "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"... But before trying again let's ask those that were around last time "why did it fail"?
What was learned from the experience?
Lessons learned?
What could be done differently next time so it doesn't end up like last time.

Just as we're discussing critiquing pens, critique that last effort and offer suggestions that would make it better on a second attempt.

Under any successful person or venture is a mountain of failures, and those failures are what we come to know of as experience.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

 

[chriselle]

I said I would play along and try it out but deep down I suspect the forum would ultimately suffer the same fate as the first attempt.

However, applying Einstein's quote to a second try is only valid if no logical deductions are taken from the first time round. I'm pretty sure Albert would say, tweak it and go for it. Everything we know is based on that premise......the old learn from your mistakes thingy.

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmmmm

Well, all of the many and varied opinions given so far not-with-standing (I only read those on the frist 5 pages) I believe a critique forum would be about as useful as nipples on a boar hog.

If you want an honest critique of a pen, send the pictures to a couple of people who will give you an honest evaluation. If you want their opinion of the blank, ask for it. If you want their opinion on a design, ask for it.

If you want the workmanship looked at, tell them. Understand that when you ask an opinion on workmanship, you are really just looking for verification of your own opinion. You know when the workmanship on a pen you make is excellent and when it isn't.

Frankly, if you want an evaluation of something you've created, 12000 or so members don't really need to know my opinion of your workmanship. Only you need to know what I think and you can learn that privately.

 

[chriselle]

Smitty for the win..:beer:

 

[Texatdurango]

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