Would you want a forum for critiquing pens?

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mredburn

mredburn

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Mike Kennedy of Indy Pen Dance has put forth the Idea of a forum whose function would be, "any pen" placed in that forum is asking for honest harsh critiquing. Would it be useful? Would you be able to put a pen in it without having your feelings hurt. With that thought in mind it could have a permanent poll or rating for each submission
Say, just to get things started something like this.....:cool:

1-The pen sucks, do it over
2-That had better be the prototype
3-Not bad for a first pen at least the parts are flush.
4-Decent fit, fair design, needs tweaked
5-One of your better designs
6-Very nice pen, great design and execution
7-Wow
8-Holy crap!
9- I am not worthy to judge your pens
10 "All hail"the mighty "Pen Smith" maker of fine art and writing instruments extraordinaire!

All kidding aside Mike was right when he said that honest criticism is what helps us to make pens that are worthy of production. Both those that are assembling component pens and those that are on the kit-less journey. Whether just starting out replacing small parts like trim rings and center bands or totally designing and making all the parts they can.

Your opinions are welcome!
 
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If this were put in place I'd bet that SOYP's would quickly grind to a halt.

I think most people want comments and critique (though maybe not really harsh critique) on their pens in SOYP's.

I think the poster should be open to honest feedback if they are posting in SOYP's. If they want their pen ripped apart per se then they should note that.

So, IMO, I don't think a new subforum is required.
 
I think it's a great idea. SOYP is a great place to show the pens you are proud of, but when your learning or trying new ides/concepts there are times when you want honest opinions, critiques and possible criticism. Seamus is right that criticism makes us strive to work harder and make better stuff.
 
I like hearing constructive critiques on what I've done. Sometimes I know about a problem, then other times someone might point out something that may give me a different perspective.

I like the idea of that type of forum. Some of the better gains I've made have been based not just on some of the ccomments here, but also from some of those people who offered to help me with their insight and experience. If not for those people, I'd probably still be struggling with a CA finish.

The nice thing about a forum like that is that it's voluntary, and while there is already a SOYP forum, people who want an honest assessment of their work could post in the new one.
 
I think that is SOYP should be already. To be honest there are times I don't comment in there because 10 people already said great job, looks great but when I look I see the F&F are off or the finish goes flat in some spots and I don't want to offend. If it is necessary for this to be a different forum that is the only place I would post because even though I am proud there is always room for improvement and if no one tells me I never grow.
 
Justturnin said:
I think that is SOYP should be already. To be honest there are times I don't comment in there because 10 people already said great job, looks great but when I look I see the F&F are off or the finish goes flat in some spots and I don't want to offend. If it is necessary for this to be a different forum that is the only place I would post because even though I am proud there is always room for improvement and if no one tells me I never grow.
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This is one thing that frustrates me!

If you tell someone it is adequate enough times they'll never strive for better. I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but a great pen doesn't have sanding marks or a poor fit and finish. This is one reason I don't often comment on pens in SOYP's unless they really stand out.

AK
 
Once upon a time this did exist on IAP. Maybe now is different, but it was soon closed. This was just before the time I joined so while I did read some of the posts, the forum had already closed. Maybe Jeff or one of the old timers can chime in.
 
Not a bad idea but we need to remember a few years ago we had a critique forum and it got out of hand so it was discontinued. Have we grown up enough to handle honest critiques with out being offended? I do agree that the SOYP forum is nothing but a place where most are afraid to critique and don't want to offend, but a critique forum would be a place that the original poster is expecting honest critiques and the posters would /should have no reservations in their posting as long as it's done in a civil manner to help not just criticize. Point out what you think could be improved, not just something like "I just don't like it". This is what closed the critque forum in the first place , it turned into a bashing forum not a helpful critique forum.
 
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Justturnin said:
I don't want to offend.
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This is why a separate forum is needed. It basically says "I want people to be honest and tell me how you really feel". It is not meant for someone to just say "wow that sucks", it is meant to give constructive criticism. Things like you are out of round or the plating and the blank clash or you need to work on your threading ect.... Pen-makers will be much more critical than a family member or co-worker and that can help.

Look the MODs have enough to do and don't need to babysit a forum that has the potential to get out of hand. I fully understand why they would be opposed to the idea. I would hope that people would find this idea as a tool to help progress their talents. Maybe this is something that we could put on a trial basis. Oh and a 2" x 3" dark photo of a pen laying on a kitchen counter could not be used, you just can't see the detail to give any feedback.
 
The biggest problem is a lot of the people that make the real high end do not often post theirs. Is it fear of being imitated, ect. (Not taking anything away from the ones posted), but when is the last time you posted a pen?
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
Not a bad idea but we need to remember a few years ago we had a critique forum and it got out of hand so it was discontinued. Have we grown up enough to handle honest critiques with out being offended? I do agree that the SOYP forum is nothing but a place where most are afraid to critique and don't want to offend, but a critique forum would be a place that the original poster is expecting honest critiques and the posters would /should have no reservations in their posting as long as it's done in a civil manner to help not just criticize. Point out what you think could be improved, not just something like "I just don't like it". This is what closed the critque forum in the first place , it turned into a bashing forum not a helpful critique forum.
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I totally agree. I would hope no one would post a comment just to be ugly and a critique should also come with advise.

(i.e.) It appears to be out of round, you may want to check you Mandrel and make sure its not bent, or It seems to be slightly proud of the components, do you use Calipers to measure or do you go by the bushings?

Never should we see, 'That looks like crap, you have a lot to learn'.
 
my philosophy is if you don't want it critiqued, don't post it in SOYP. Post a crap pen in there and if I see it, I'll tell you. I expect the same when I post a pen.

In fact I just left a comment on one. Nice enough pen, but I explained why I didn't particularly like it. The poster may ignore my comment because they disagree with it, but at least they've heard the perspective now.
 
I see some that are good fit, good finish, blank matches the kit, ect. But just don't like the blank. I often don't put a comment on it, because I don't want to offend. I have started to see more of what others will like, eventhough I don't like it.
 
Mike, while I agree with you that it would be of a help and it SHOULD not become a bash forum inevitability it will become just that as all we need is a very small contingent of members to dissagree on a critique and as the saying goes "the fight is on"..
IPD_Mr said:
Justturnin said:
I don't want to offend.
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This is why a separate forum is needed. It basically says "I want people to be honest and tell me how you really feel". It is not meant for someone to just say "wow that sucks", it is meant to give constructive criticism. Things like you are out of round or the plating and the blank clash or you need to work on your threading ect.... Pen-makers will be much more critical than a family member or co-worker and that can help.

Look the MODs have enough to do and don't need to babysit a forum that has the potential to get out of hand. I fully understand why they would be opposed to the idea. I would hope that people would find this idea as a tool to help progress their talents. Maybe this is something that we could put on a trial basis. Oh and a 2" x 3" dark photo of a pen laying on a kitchen counter could not be used, you just can't see the detail to give any feedback.
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edicehouse said:
The biggest problem is a lot of the people that make the real high end do not often post theirs. Is it fear of being imitated, ect. (Not taking anything away from the ones posted), but when is the last time you posted a pen?
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Whom are you asking?
 
To me thats the problem, as that would not be a critique but an opinion on the blank. not on how it would improve the posters craft and if others liked the blank then as said the fight begins...
edicehouse said:
I see some that are good fit, good finish, blank matches the kit, ect. But just don't like the blank. I often don't put a comment on it, because I don't want to offend. I have started to see more of what others will like, eventhough I don't like it.
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Bear in mind that I'm new, have not posted a pen, and leave "nice job" comments in SOYP frequently. Probably do that because the pens are better than mine, and if I can't do it better, I'm not going to say that pen sucks. Other members have that opportunity but not me (not right now, at least)
If this is done, I think the delete button should be available to the original poster so after an acceptable amount of feedback is given, the post can be deleted if desired.
For instance: If I go to local meeting with a crappy pen, I would accept honest feedback while at the meeting and ask for more than one opinion but I wouldn't want to leave it in a display case with a notebook so everyone who sees it afterwards can keep telling me that it sucks. Either a delete button or a time frame of 5-7 days or whatever since I think critiques are most valuable to the pen maker not casual observers and when they are made in a timely manner, not 6 or more months later.
And a delete button will keep the forum from filling up with thousands of posts.
That's my 0.02 cents.
 
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I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, as most of us generally would like to hear feedback on our pens - but I don't really see the need for a separate sub-forum that mimics the current one.

If someone wants honest feedback, it's quite easy to ask for it in SOYP, isn't it? Simply saying 'give me honest feedback' or 'do you think this pen blank and hardware clash?' is enough, I'd think, and eliminates the concerns that Roy brought up.

Do we need another sub-forum to do essentially what SOYP can do with a simple question?
 
Well, I have been around the forum a little while, haven't posted a pen in quite a while for many reasons...most obvious being that i haven't made any. However, i need to make a number of pens in the very near future. While the SOYP forum is great to post pens for everyone to see...I would vote for a seperate forum that would be for those wishing a more detailed inspection and opinions on how to improve...HOWEVER, if another forum should be created for that purpose...IMHO...there should be a way for the poster of the pen to remain anonymous, at least for a while. That way, the critique could truly be of the craftsmanship of the pen, and nothing else.
 
I've seen this tried on other forums, and it ultimately turns into a big flame thread.

Also as posted above, it going to turn into a gold vs chrome with that blank, or color, or that band is the wrong color, or CA vs friction finish, etc etc..

Not everyone likes the same thing or colors, or combination of colors. I make pens all the time, that I don't care for the matching of or the colors (thats why I have other people help me pick combos all the time, "it's not about what I like"), but others love them. As the old saying goes "be kind of boring if we all liked the same thing"

My point is if it would be something that would be just on the construction, fit, or finish, or mechnical features, it might be good.

But it will never stay that way, and as said above, who wants to hear from 200 people that "The pen looks out of round" "you should turn more off the body" "that color combo is all wrong" etc. If the comment has been made the other 199 don't need to repeate it.

It's an OK idea but I don't think it will work, my two cents worth.

I know I am my worst critic, I haven't made a pen yet that I'm 100% happy with, Just at that makes me strive to get better each time I make one. :wink:
 
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THe like button could be used to reaffirm a comment on a pen postitive or critical, rather than 20 repeats. It amounts to the same thing just less posts to wade through.
 
Actually Andrew I thought you could be Moderator/Dictator in chief of this particualr forum. If they dont play nice you get to send em to the corner for time out.:biggrin:
 
I personally have benefited from honest critiques of my pens. And I really don't think a separate forum is needed. Maybe a CC in the title for comments & critiques welcome would be enough. Like "My1st Kitless - CC" for the title.

From now on, I'll be asking for honest critiques of my work.
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
If someone wants honest feedback, it's quite easy to ask for it in SOYP, isn't it? Simply saying 'give me honest feedback' or 'do you think this pen blank and hardware clash?' is enough, I'd think, and eliminates the concerns that Roy brought up.

Do we need another sub-forum to do essentially what SOYP can do with a simple question?
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I agree with this . Those are just about the only ones that I will comment upon . I see too many `good job` posts on pens that aren`t good , probably sincerely made by someone at the apprentice level . The only way around that problem is to limit criticisms to a pre-determined panel of experts , similar to a peer review panel for a technical journal .

Also , as mentioned above , photo quality is an essential element to an effective critiquing process . Not all of us who are competent on fit and finish , are on photography .
 
ok, haven't read every reply here but thought I'd jump in.

1)I think SOYP is a place to say.. "Hey look at this pen, I think it's GREAT". Hence the 'show off' title. I know people say 'all comments welcome'.... but do they mean ALL comments??

2) A critique forum should be more..."Hey guys, need feedback, how did I do?"

3)Being strickly voluntary it's the posters choice of where to post. If someone does not like the responses they know better for next time and can post elsewhere.

4)With a set 'POLL' as was given the example in the OP, (ie 1-10) it stops the random comments of "Geeze that pens sucks big time - what were you thinking". But, the replies should have a reason WHY you picked option 3, or 5, ... what makes the pen only so-so or stand out above the rest.

5) As has been mentioned, photo quality comes into play. Perhaps there should be a set photo size and maybe even composition guidelines. Keep it simple.
 
OK what about this; those that want some critiquing do as stated above ask for it in the subject line or some other method, but lets take it a step further, and maybe offer some advice on how to fix what you see wrong, or what you do.

e.g.

It looks like your fit at the nib and final are a little proud.
What I do is I under cut the blank a little bit in those areas, so when I apply my CA it builds it back up to the correct size for a better fit.
 
What I like about the IAP forum(s) is the encouragement and support that most of the members provide to novice, intermediate and even advanced pen makers, new members and the sort. I wouldn't think the moderators would want to do anything that would be detrimental to the existing IAP format. I see the proposed forum as possibly being exactly that. We (IAP members) most certainly do not want to become, or become known as a bunch of "snooty", "better than thou" pen makers that intimidate. With all due respect - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
 
could a forum be set up where any member can vote in the poll, but only certain people can leave comments?

So..... comments would come from more experienced people who are known to be honest and not just bash something or give false praise.

I know, this leads to the question... Who is going to get the job? And would they want to do it?

Just an idea. I'll go away now.
 
No thanks, I would not be interested in a critiquing forum.

I'm not interested in SYOP either, I never go there.
 
I agree the the SOYP forum should be enough and anyone who asks for a real critique should accept what is said. And, as others have said, I would hope no one here would put anyone down, just give an honest opinion.

One issue I see with making honest opinions is the variation in the quality of photos provided. I know mine aren't the best and some are worse than mine. Hard to see critical things on a pen when you don't have a quality image to work from.

I don't post many pens for a couple reasons. One, I'm not looking for a bunch of 'nice pen' or 'good job'. Second, while I believe I make a fairly decent pen, when I see the amazing pens quite a few of you make, I feel like a hack!!

Just my 2 cents and maybe not worth that.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin
 
I was for the idea at the start, but I now have changed my mind for this reason. I know that I and many other honest members on here would not mindlessly and heartlessly bash others pens, but I have been through some of the older posts and some people do not have that as a standard. They are ok with being brutal in a very unhelpful way. I think that peoples beliefs vary too much, so in the end it could get nasty and counterproductive. I agree with Andrew that asking for HONEST CC in SYOP should be enough as long as everyone remembers what that means. I post in SYOP sometimes hoping for some helpful feedback, and there have been times where I have received it, but I would still like more. I make a mistake and think "Can anyone else see this?" and "Is it a big deal?" I don't think anyone wants to make what they consider a crappy pen and I would like to know when my pen is crappy and unsellable. But at the same time I don't want my skill level to be bashed or my intelligence to be undercut. I think the answer is to keep the SYOP only and ask for honest feedback. I had some honest feedback from Eric about one of his pinecone blanks, and because of that I changed the way I glue up for cast pens, which has in turn really improved the outcome. If I don't like it, I take it into consideration and mull over how I can improve on it. Anyway, my 2 cents.

David
 
LL Woodworks said:
What I like about the IAP forum(s) is the encouragement and support that most of the members provide to novice, intermediate and even advanced pen makers, new members and the sort. I wouldn't think the moderators would want to do anything that would be detrimental to the existing IAP format. I see the proposed forum as possibly being exactly that. We (IAP members) most certainly do not want to become, or become known as a bunch of "snooty", "better than thou" pen makers that intimidate. With all due respect - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
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The more I think about it, the more I agree with Lynn. The SOYP should be good enough. Maybe the SOYP should be renamed.
 
I've "liked" several responses to this and am having a hard time thinking of what to say that hasn't already been said, but I'll try.

I think a separate forum for (and maybe titled) Critical Reviews could have its place. For instance I've posted several pens in SOYP and invited comments and critiques, with only minimal responses and usually all positive. I'm happy with those, but would also welcome responses pointing out radial marks that maybe I missed, or components not matching up, or like one I recently seen posted where I noticed someone posted several pen photos, and one didn't even have the nib screwed in all the way, yet I didn't feel it appropriate to point that out in SOYP because opinions weren't asked for.

So I think a separate forum, where tougher critiques are not only welcome, but expected could be of benefit. But everyone needs to have this same expectation going into it and comments need to be directed as constructive criticism for the purpose of the poster improving his craft and product. And as stated the "I don't like it", "That looks like crap" kind of comments would not be helpful or welcomed. Kind of like a book I recently read that discussed taking a problem to you manager. The author stated he would not accept anyone bringing in a problem to him unless that person had one or two solutions to the problem to offer as well. If someone is going to make a negative comment about my posting, I would greatly appreciate a suggestion on how to make correction.

Maybe the above could be a good guideline for a forum of this type. If you're going to point out a flaw or design issue, you have to state how you think it could be improved upon...

Then there's issue of providing decent enough photos of you pen to warrant good and honest reviews. Some people can make great pens, but take lousy photos. And it would be hard to provide honest critiques on a pen if the photos are out of focus, or the white balance is so far off that chrome looks like gold and so on. There's a lot of those kinds of photos in SOYP and it's sometimes hard to even make a good comment on them because you really don't have a good representation of what the pen looks like. So a forum for critiquing pen should also have some minimum requirements of being in focus and correct color balance just so honest opinions can be offered. Otherwise they my need to visit the Pen Photography forum first, for some pointers before posting for critiques.

OK, I've said enough (and lunch time is over) :rolleyes:
 
I've posted quite a bit in SOYP since I started turning. Partly because I like to look at and show off my growth but typically because I like getting feedback that helps me continue to grow as a craftsman or ultimately one who strives to obtain artist level years down the road.

Unfortunately most of the comments that are offered in the SOYP are just "nice job" or similar with only a few critical comments. The critical comments are those that help us improve as other see what we are blind to sometimes. It's like when I create programming code at work. I look at something so long that I grow numb to what I'm seeing and it takes a separate set of eyes to point out something that should have been obvious to me, or sometimes a better way to accomplish a task.

If you can't take the critique, don't ask for it or don't post to a critique forum. I personally think it's one of the best ways to grow.
 
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I don't understand why the critique would get out of hand.. I mean if I posted a pic in there of something I worked on, I would want you all to pick it apart.... down to the photography of the pen.. I sell my pens, and I want to make sure people get what they pay for. If you post in the critique for advice you should EXPECT negative comments as well as positive ones.

I used to do photography as a hobby and found an awesome website that was similar to this one. You posted in critique, that's exactly what you got. That's not saying, if you liked a picture you posted, and several people picked out the smallest details of what could be better or different.. Doesn't mean your left with a bad picture.. YOU still like it :) It just plants seeds in your head for what can be done different next time.

Now.. if it gets downright rude.. that's a different story.. Then I don't see it working.. If you told me that it seems my fit is slightly off, try A, B or C, next time I'd be fine with that, but if you say "you must be blind as a bat clearly that fit is off by .03 millimeters, your an idiot, go plant a garden and use your pens as plant markers"... yeah that may be too abrasive :)

Just my $.02 :) I look forward to it if it comes about.
 
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