Why ask for critique and comments if you don't really want them?

[Carl Fisher]

So this happened recently on another forum but I do see hints of it here from time to time.

<Caution, stepping up on a soap box for a moment>

Why do people ask for critique of their work but when you offer anything other than 100% positive feedback they go on the defensive and get their feathers ruffled and start arguing with you or throw their hands up and go stick their head in the sand? If all you want is a pat on the back, then don't ask for a critique or any other form of "how can I improve" feedback.

I think this is half the reason you constantly see the canned 'great fit and finish' response to pens that many times aren't. People are tired of providing honest feedback only to get abused for providing it. This unfortunately isn't really helping anyone improve.

If a critique is requested, be ready to receive it good or bad. If you're not ready for it, don't ask for it.

<Stepping back off the soap box>

Many times I don't feel qualified to provide feedback so I don't. In those cases where I do, it's only to help someone improve next time by offering lessons I've learned along the way.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

It certainly can happen.

I try to offer honest and respectful comments even if they aren't fully affirmative.

For me personally, I'm open to any kind of comments whether I request them or not.

Some things are subjective. (Proportions etc) others more objective. I also try to make clear which type of comment I'm making.

 

[Smitty37]

So this happened recently on another forum but I do see hints of it here from time to time.

<Caution, stepping up on a soap box for a moment>

Why do people ask for critique of their work but when you offer anything other than 100% positive feedback they go on the defensive and get their feathers ruffled and start arguing with you or throw their hands up and go stick their head in the sand? If all you want is a pat on the back, then don't ask for a critique or any other form of "how can I improve" feedback.

I think this is half the reason you constantly see the canned 'great fit and finish' response to pens that many times aren't. People are tired of providing honest feedback only to get abused for providing it. This unfortunately isn't really helping anyone improve.

If a critique is requested, be ready to receive it good or bad. If you're not ready for it, don't ask for it.

<Stepping back off the soap box>

Many times I don't feel qualified to provide feedback so I don't. In those cases where I do, it's only to help someone improve next time by offering lessons I've learned along the way.

Personally I never ask for feedback..what's done is done and some of my turnings turn out better than others.

Since I don't make my own blanks, I'm not looking at how others might see the blank, I sell very few pens so I'm not looking at what might make a good seller. So I look at comments and read them, but never ask for them.

 

[kingkeyman]

I would rather see the comments that pick apart my work. Recently I put some pictures up and somebody told me in a kind way that my pens were fine but the photos were bad. I appreciated that comment, and I've been trying to figure out how to take better pics ever since. Please be tough on these pictures, how else are we going to get better?

 

[Carl Fisher]

I typically won't provide critical comments on subjective matters. Blank composition and form is all a matter of personal preference.

 

[Joe S.]

I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.

Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:

 

[Brooks803]

I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.

Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:

I'm in the same boat Joe. Most people will post in SOYP bc they're proud of their work. I don't want to sound mean or come across that way, but it'd be hard not to if I'm constantly picking apart peoples work.

I don't mind pointing out something fairly obvious but for me unless I have the pen in hand and can really hold and see it I won't critique to much unless it's about personal tastes.

 

[kovalcik]

I do agree with Carl in that if you ask for C&C, be prepared to hear it. But, if I can critique some of the critics, some of them just do not get how to give constructive criticism. As Dan said you have to be respectful. Most people are, but I have seen a couple that seem to delight in pointing out flaws without offering suggestions on how to improve or pointing out things they got right. I think you also have to take into acount if you are critiqueing a beginner or a more advanced turner. While you could point out 10 things a beginner got wrong, it is much more constructive and manageable for them to focus on 1 or 2 major issues first instead of being buried in details. If someone underturns their barrels and has ridges in their CA finish, I am not going to mention that they should assemble the barrels so the grain matches better.

And finally, lets face it, even if we ask for C&C, we also want our egos stroked a little. After all, this is a hobby for most of us. It is supposed to be fun. There HAS to be something good they can point out in their comments.

Remember, when you are asked for C&C, you are being asked as a mentor, not as a judge. Make your comments reflect that. A good critique should leave a person knowing what they did right, where they need to improve, and how to make that improvement.

(Note: This is not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not Carl, so I hope noone thinks I am dumping on them personally.)

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Some great points here about where people are on on the beginner to intermediate etc scale.

In life and in pens there are two - at least - types on critical comments.

One is given in respect and care and wants the other to be the best they can be.

The other wants to tear down to make themselves feel or look better or some other motive. Bad.

I try to affirm something in every critique I offer.

 

[mark james]

I am with all the above comments. Personally, when I see "particular" individuals are posting comments - I'll read them because I suspect from past posts they will give an honest critique WITH SUGGESTIONS and HINTS FOR IMPROVEMENTS.

Other "individuals"... well, often simply a critical comments with no effort to Teach or mentor others. Other than my 2 cats, there's nobody else in my basement to suggest ways to improve. Trial and error are great, but suggestions are quicker and help me to "get out of my box" and look/approach something differently!

 

[jyreene]

Agree and understand with pretty much all said. I'll offer honest feedback if I have a way I think would fix the problem or if something is just off to me. They don't like the feedback they don't need to be on a forum where we are supposed to help each other. Holding the pen is best but a decent photo can be pretty helpful.

 

[robutacion]

I certainly agree with most points discussed/mentioned here, being truly honest with someone else's work, is not an easy task and regardless which way you approach it, most people are not really prepare to receive any sort of criticism from their work, they do it based on the principal that, it seems to be the normal thing to do, and they see it be done all the time however, they want to get the pleasant and sweet works as a reward from their work, this is a lot more critical from beginners view point, they need acceptance and encouraging works for everyone, even themselves know that, their work is not flawless and assume that trained eyes won't see it.

Sure, everyone needs words of encouragement, they bring confidence and the want to do some more however, not many folks really expect true comments even if they know they come from someone with more experience than them so, is a fine line to consider, for those that, are willing by request to examine someone else's work and give an honest and true opinion, without being "tagged" as nasty, cruel, mean, etc, etc,.

If I see someone that has great potential, as a willingness to learn and is open to fair criticism, I will do my best to provided all the information I see fit, good or bad, I do no hesitate to make my opinion known nor, I will be intimidated/discouraged by those that have a natural dislike for me or for anything I say or do.

I have mentored a lot of people in my life, that was based in sharing my opinions, experience and "judgment" for every single situation they had to endure, I'm yet to be accused of providing bad information, useless opinions, and monkey suggestions so I believe, I'm perfectly capable to be a positive influence, to many people out there, I get the validation of that, quite often, a great reward, indeed...!

EVERYONE, as something to learn, no exceptions...!

Cheers
George

 

[mredburn]

If you thought you had a great pen and asked for c&c and they come in less that favorable it can be a natural reaction to defend your work. I now hold my critiques for more advanced pen makers. I feel that if they are showing advanced work they want honest feedback to help get them to the next level not just "nice pen " good job" responses. I will comment on a pen that is not the best executed workmanship if it has a good design and will focus on that aspect. Part of the problem with critiquing others work arises from those of us that are slightly more detail oriented than some of the other turners. Part of it is personal preferences in color choices or material choices and then there is the 10 or 20 responses to the pen for "spot on" and "great job" that are contrary to your opinion.

 

[Cmiles1985]

Great thread Carl. I hope I am not guilty of this. I know that I have received some very valuable critiques from George (robutacion) on making blanks. I have received valuable feed back (although I may not have liked the way it was worded) from edstreet in regards to CA finishing. I have since been working on my CA finishing technique, and feel that it has improved significantly, but I still have a ways to go to get the "perfect" finish.

I started this hobby by jumping in head first. There was no "getting my feet wet." I don't have a woodcraft within 100 miles that I could go take an evening course on turning a pen. I have gone solely off of expensive trial and error, YouTube videos and, of course, forum advice! I love that there is a group of folks willing to mentor so many others. On the other hand, what has been said above is very true: critiquing something to offer valuable feedback via a picture is difficult. I, for one, operate generally using my phone for posting and reading. I have a small home and shop, so setting up my photo tent is a bit of an ordeal. Therefore, most photos are iphone photos...that is why I've reduced the number of photos I post, as I realize image quality needs to be there to really show off your work for constructive criticisms.

Anyhow, I've rambled enough for now. I really want to thank everyone here for the teachings they have offered.

 

[Sandsini]

As a newb here, I have to say that I am really impressed by the number of folks who have gone out of their way to say nice things about my first pens and share constructive advice on how to improve my work. Without a doubt this forum is the most well mannered, kind and considerate forum I have ever dealt with. Going through the SOYP area never fails to fill me with warmth about how wonderful the people here are. Generous with their knowledge, and generous with their desire to please and assist their penmaking bothers and sisters.

I'm sure that I will get a little more jaded and critical once I have been here for awhile, but you guys probably don't realize how great you have it.

Really.

Eric

 

[ssajn]

Years ago I asked Ed Brown what he thought of a pen I made. His reply was "Nice" I then asked what he really thought. On go the inspectors glasses. He ask if I wanted him to be honest. You bet,rip it apart. OK first of all ---- second----and ----etc etc. Since then every time I make a pen I think back to then. In my opinion negative feedback is more helpful and for me welcome. Thanks to Ed I'm a better pen turner.

 

[Haynie]

Why are are some people sensitive? Because they are people. They may ask for C&C but they are not prepared for it. If they get their feathers ruffled DON'T argue with them.

You say
Looks like your blank is not square with the component part. Try a sanding disk to square the barrel. Those barrel squaring tools often leave an uneven surface that is not obvious until you put the pen together.

They hear
Don't you know how to square a blank? That is the most basic skill. Doofus. If you can't do that you might as well sell your tools and take up reality TV watching as your hobby. What were you thinking when you posted the bit of arse sausage for others to see. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Some people are like that. It is not worth going further.

You should see how defensive people get on photography forums when other comment on their photos.

 

[Rounder]

I honestly wish the pens I have posted were critiqued more "truthfully". To improve on anything you need someone that knows what they are doing to guide and teach you. People make mistakes and don't always see them. Most don't want to admit that they don't have the knowledge they need to properly do things. I turn practically everything I do with a homemade carbide tool because I have never been able to comfortably master skews and gouges. If I had a "guide", I would be able to learn it better. Somethings you just don't pick up easily. People may not remember what you say, but they will always remember how you make them feel, therefore criticism must be done tactfully with most people. Myself, slap me in the face with it and say "HEY dumb***, it is supposed to be this way"! That is just me though.

 

[Smitty37]

Opinion

If people ask for C & C they sould include a little notice of what they know about the pen. If there is a mistake they know of but chose not to fix - mention it. Then you don't care if others see it.

I have a number of those mistakes lying around and my desk is awash with the ones like this

​

- it's obvious why I assemble them and I never bother to take one apart. So I am very used to seeing pens that are not perfect.

Some are new comers posting their first pen and really want to be told everything they can improve on. The first dozen or so I made were all underturned at the tip and cap and often at the centerband as well. It would have helped to have someone tell me...I was comparing them to the PSI catalog and you might not believe this but sometimes the pens they picture are a tad less than perfect.

 

[mark james]

View attachment 117789​

Smitty, how did you steal all MY desk pens!!!

 

[Carl Fisher]

I was comparing them to the PSI catalog and you might not believe this but sometimes the pens they picture are a tad less than perfect.

I've often wondered about those. I see that in several of the catalogs with things quite blatently over or under turned. I can only expect it's due to having to whip something together in time to get the pictures done and in the catalog.

 

[Cwalker935]

As a newbie to this forum and as a relative newbie to pen turning (1 1/2 years) and as an individual that has not had a lot of face to face interaction with other pen turners, I post things with some trepidation. One I am not sure if I am worthy and two I think that my work is not all that original. Therefore, when I post something I've made, I am looking for some affirmation and for gentle but constructive feedback.

When I look at the work of others, I heed Thumper's Mom's admonition "if you can't say anything nice say nothing at all". I do generally speak up when I like something. I am hesitant to comment on the work of those folks who are obviously very advanced. Sometimes, I am amazed at the skill and creativity but simply do not like the end result.

All of that having been said, I sometimes see numerous positive comments on things that I do care for and wonder what I am missing.

 

[ssajn]

Hey Smitty you turned those down just a tad too far.
:biggrin:

 

[Chatham PenWorks]

This is supposed to be a forum for helping those in the community grow and learn. Constructive criticism should be the default expectation when posting ones work in SOYP or OTWM. Seeing as we're all human, and mostly male, a little bit of nonconstructive criticism should be expected from time to time, as well. And sometimes just poor delivery of the good kind. Overly sensitive posters, as well as too PC posters, have done a great disservice to the IAP community as a whole. Waaay too many poorly done pens (clearly overturned, OOR, sanding lumpy CA........) are posted, and quickly replied to with a string of "superb fit and finish" and the like. This does the poster no favors. They don't learn anything, make more pens with the same mistakes, and post them to the same glowing reviews. Not only do we not learn and grow this way, but we strengthen bad habits and techniques.

If you post a pic, and want no critique, then say so in your post. Otherwise, act like an adult (the majority of us are) and take in whatever comments are given. Respond to compliments with a thank you. Respond to constructive criticism with a thank you and questions, answers, or respectful rebuttal. You know, just like in a regular adult conversation. Ignore any disrespectful critique - a benefit of being on a forum and not face to face.

For those responding to posts, be honest above all else. If your comments are taken poorly, move on. If you see that your comments are consistently taken poorly, and by lots of different people, rethink your delivery. Sadly, some of the most knowledgable, and with the most to offer, can also be the most obnoxious.

 

[skiprat]

Ok, I'll give my tupence worth too.
I consider myself an pretty reasonable pen maker and feel that I do contribute to our hobby via this site.
My ego likes praise as much as the next guy and really enjoy a bit of ribbing from my peers ( fellow members ) about what I did good or not so good.
I do try to be honest with my opinions but I'm afraid that most of the guys I give critique to are Brits. All of the American members that I felt comfortable give 'my opinions' to, have left this site, or very very rarely visit.
(Butch, Jeff, George, Keith, The Cat and several others, etc)

I know in my heart that some of the praise and 'likes' I receive sometimes come solely from being a relative 'old popular member' rather than just on the merits of my work.

That being said, it really pees me off big time when I see an outstanding piece of craftmanship from someone that may not be quite as popular as some of our older members and it gets very few comments.

We have some older members that make very mediocre pens but they are swamped with 'likes' and comments like flies round poo. Just because they may be popular?


Sometimes I think the new 'like' button should be removed, but then again it has it's advantages.

SOYP is subtitled as Show us your BEST work, or something like that. Don't expect tons of praise for average work and never qualify it with something like....'just a quick cell phone pic cos I couldn't be arsed setting up my camera'
If you don't care enough to try and take a decent pic then no-one will care to comment.

:biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

Hey Smitty you turned those down just a tad too far.
:biggrin:

Yeh, I over compensated for all of the ones I underturned when I first got started....:biggrin:

 

[jeff]

I've noticed that too and it really bugs me. For a while I would critique pens the way I would want mine critiqued, but I started to feel like I was being mean.

Maybe we should have a "Critique My Pens" forum along with the SOYP forum. :biggrin:

Only the really old timers will remember that we had a "Critiques" forum. Here's the post I made when we closed that forum on September 20 2005.

After consulting with the moderators and some others, I've decided to shut down the Critiques forum. Despite clear guidelines and gentle nudging, that forum has become just another Show Off Your Pens, and we don't need duplicate forums.

My intention with Critiques was to provide a place for serious, thoughtful critiques of our work. I know that it's hard to avoid complimenting beautiful work, and we ended up with a lot of "nice pen, good job" posts, exactly what a formal critiques forum was supposed to help us avoid.

A second problem with "critique by photograph" is that there is just not enough information in a picture to allow a thorough inspection. It's hard to see how surfaces mate, consistency of finish, and other subtleties. The quality of a photograph ends up impacting the quality of the critique.

So, if you want a critique, post in SOYP and specifically ask for it. If you want a critique, I suggest putting "CRITIQUE" in the subject of your topic.

Here were the guidelines for that forum:

General:

The intent of this forum is to provide a place for members who desire serious, constructive critique of their work. This is not the place to get a bunch of "Nice Pen, Good Job" posts. If you just want to show off your work without critique (and there is nothing wrong with that!), visit the Show Off Your Pens forum.

By posting your work in the Critiques Forum, you are asking your fellow penturners to point out the positive and negative aspects of your work, and suggest ways you can improve it with different design, material, finish, or technique choices.

When you receive a critique, accept it graciously. Asking for a critique, then getting upset when you receive it will significantly limit the number of responses you get in the future. Use the feedback you get to improve your work, OR ignore it and move on.

When giving a critique, be constructive. Give the kind of information you would value receiving for your own work. Offer commentary that helps the maker see the work in a new light, provides specific ways to improve it, and contributes to creative growth.

The Critiques Forum is not for general conversation. A bit of back and forth followup discussion is acceptable, but stay focused on the pen under consideration. Don't argue with people providing critiques or dispute the validity of the feedback. If someone repeatedly provides useless criticism, the moderators will deal with it.

What makes a good critique?

Responses should provide some type of instructional, educational, and constructive feedback regarding the work. A critique should point out something done well, and the biggest improvement that you think can be made and why you think so.

The objective is not to point out the difference between the posted work and a museum quality masterpiece, but rather to improve the posted work. Comments should take into account the skill level of the maker. Someone's third pen deserves a different critique than a complicated custom job from an old-timer.

Remember, like everything else in life, there are good and bad critiques. A critique is an opinion, and improvements are best had when there are multiple viewpoints. Don't critique other critiques! Focus on the posted work and your opinion of it.

Tips for those seeking critiques:

PLEASE post good photos. Use close-ups of specific areas if it will help the reviewers. If you post a blurry photo, the moderators may lock or delete your topic and ask you to post a better photo.

Describe the work. Include the kit manufacturer and model, plating, type of wood or other material, special techniques used, etc. Describe any specialized techniques or tools used. Put some effort into helping people understand what you've done and how you've done it.

If you're looking for comments on a particular aspect of the pen, such as the shape, fit, finish, etc., say what you're looking for or what you want ignored. If your skill level is not well known (perhaps you are a new member) let us know something about your experience.

Tips for those providing critiques:

Don't critique someone's work unless you know what you're talking about. Bad advice serves nobody. Offer critiques that are within your experience base. Nobody is standing at the door checking your credentials, but the voice of experience vastly improves the value of the critique. If you're regularly offering critiques on complicated, custom designs, and you have nothing but straight, bushing-to-bushing slimlines in your photo album, your input will likely carry less credibility.

Remember that you are critiquing the work, not the person. Avoid personal references by talking about the pen, rather than the maker. Avoid using vague words like "nice", "like", "good", or "bad" unless you can follow them with some specific supporting comments.

When you provide a critique, be clear, concise, honest, and direct, without being mean. This is not the place to flame or air personal grudges. Focus on the work under critique and be specific with your suggestions and observations.

I am not opposed to resurrecting a specific critiques forum if the consensus is that it will benefit the membership.

 

[Smitty37]

This is supposed to be a forum for helping those in the community grow and learn. Constructive criticism should be the default expectation when posting ones work in SOYP or OTWM. Seeing as we're all human, and mostly male, a little bit of nonconstructive criticism should be expected from time to time, as well. And sometimes just poor delivery of the good kind. Overly sensitive posters, as well as too PC posters, have done a great disservice to the IAP community as a whole. Waaay too many poorly done pens (clearly overturned, OOR, sanding lumpy CA........) are posted, and quickly replied to with a string of "superb fit and finish" and the like. This does the poster no favors. They don't learn anything, make more pens with the same mistakes, and post them to the same glowing reviews. Not only do we not learn and grow this way, but we strengthen bad habits and techniques.

If you post a pic, and want no critique, then say so in your post. Otherwise, act like an adult (the majority of us are) and take in whatever comments are given. Respond to compliments with a thank you. Respond to constructive criticism with a thank you and questions, answers, or respectful rebuttal. You know, just like in a regular adult conversation. Ignore any disrespectful critique - a benefit of being on a forum and not face to face.

For those responding to posts, be honest above all else. If your comments are taken poorly, move on. If you see that your comments are consistently taken poorly, and by lots of different people, rethink your delivery. Sadly, some of the most knowledgable, and with the most to offer, can also be the most obnoxious.

I somewhat agree - but not entirely. Most of the pictures I post (if I made the pen) ARE my best work but over half are made for me (my collection) by other turners and I am posting the pictures just to acknowledge their efforts, good or bad. Most are extremely good and I am not looking for anyone to tell how a contributer could improve his/her work. I also think, true or false, that a few members here like to see what is going into my collection.

 

[plantman]

Most of you out there who have been on this site for a while, know me by my long and detailed threads or replys. Maybe to long sometimes !! But if someone is going to make an effort to ask a question, or show us the work they did, they deserve more than a one or two word answer !! I try to not only answer their question, explain why I answered in that manner, and maybe also add a little backround information that might help someone in the future. If I c/c someone's work I try not to say anything that would make them feel bad or incompetent in any way, shape, or form. I tell them what I like and may suggest ways to improve some aspect of their pen or presentation. I once had a thread with 5 or 6 pens shown in it. One person's c/c was that he liked all but one. I replied to him, Thank you for an honest c/c, but just for my personal satisfaction, what didn't you like about that one pen so I can improve on it next time?? No reply !! I agree with everybody, if you can't handle bad or constructive c/c, don't ask for it !! Jim S

 

[mark james]

Jeff: A "Critique" Forum gets a YES vote from me! For all the obvious reasons!

 

[MarkD]

One point I would like to bring up is that it's somewhat difficult to really critique a pen from a photograph. Lightning, angles, focus, can all play a part in making a pen look good or bad. Infact, the photography of the pen may take as much, if not more, skill and creativity as making a pen. This is quite evident when people are starting out with pens and photography. Many times when someone is new and could really benefit from constructive criticism the pictures are not of the quality where the problems are evident.
Sure you can see the design and the form of the pen but it's not always easy to correctly determine things like fit and finish. Likewise, it seems that most of the people that have the photography part down have also pretty much mastered the pen making part.

 

[workinforwood]

Those soapy pants make you look young and slender Carl.

 

[workinforwood]

now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent!

 

[Carl Fisher]

now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent! ��

Those soapy pants make you look young and slender Carl.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

WAIT, are you saying I'm NOT???

 

[Chatham PenWorks]

I somewhat agree - but not entirely. Most of the pictures I post (if I made the pen) ARE my best work but over half are made for me (my collection) by other turners and I am posting the pictures just to acknowledge their efforts, good or bad. Most are extremely good and I am not looking for anyone to tell how a contributer could improve his/her work. I also think, true or false, that a few members here like to see what is going into my collection.

Understandable. When you you post pens others have given you, you always make that clear. I think it's obvious to most everybody you're not looking for critique of those, but just sharing what you were happy to receive.

 

[Chatham PenWorks]

One point I would like to bring up is that it's somewhat difficult to really critique a pen from a photograph. Lightning, angles, focus, can all play a part in making a pen look good or bad. Infact, the photography of the pen may take as much, if not more, skill and creativity as making a pen. This is quite evident when people are starting out with pens and photography. Many times when someone is new and could really benefit from constructive criticism the pictures are not of the quality where the problems are evident. Sure you can see the design and the form of the pen but it's not always easy to correctly determine things like fit and finish. Likewise, it seems that most of the people that have the photography part down have also pretty much mastered the pen making part.

When critiquing, you have to work with what's there. If the pics are bad enough that you can't really see what's going on, that's also something that the poster needs to hear.

 

[Dan Hintz]

When I ask for C&C, I actually want just that... the simple "That's a nice pen" comments are fine, but I prefer to see more detailed comments such as "I liked the pairing of blank to kit, brings out the curl of the grain" or "if you had used brass instead of aluminum for segmenting, it would have been more eye-catching".

Like it or leave it, that kind of comment is constructive in either form. It shows what you're doing correctly and what you should think on longer the next time around.

 

[GRMiller]

As for me I haven't showed any work only because right now health wise I haven't turned anything since November. Most of all the ones who do ask for C and C in there own way help me out as well. I don't know how many times where I said WOW I didn't notice that or seen that. For example on pens I thought the Gold would be a more wanted pen but they always seemed to get picked over when I let people choose what they want. I got that info from here. Who would have thought Sears would have photo booths. The list can go on.

 

[skiprat]

now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent!

Jeff, old buddy, you guys are Yanks and therefore already write with atrocious accents!! No other nation on the planet has screwed up the English language as much as you lot!!! But just remember that you are actually a Plastic Yank, being from Canada..... :wink::laugh:

Just kidding of course....it's actually nice to see you posting here again:wink:

 

[Smitty37]

now...lets all get organized and tell Steve (skiprat) his pens are ugly and write with an atrocious accent! ��

Jeff, old buddy, you guys are Yanks and therefore already write with atrocious accents!! No other nation on the planet has screwed up the English language as much as you lot!!! But just remember that you are actually a Plastic Yank, being from Canada..... :wink::laugh:

Just kidding of course....it's actually nice to see you posting here again:wink:

With the possible exception of the England, Wales, Scotland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada......Besides that we speak American English.......