ThinkTank: The 360 Herringbone Experiment

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jfoh said:
why is it that some feel that knowledge must be shared so they can copy it or even start making blanks to sell to others.
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I may have missed it but I have not seen where anyone has asked how to do it so they can sell it.

As for why people might expect knowledge to be shared is because that is what this group primarily is. With that being true it is not saying that "All knowledge is shared". Nor should all knowledge be shared.

If you have something that you are not willing to share "How it is done" there are two choices.
1. do not show it on this group as it is expected people will ask how to do it.
2. show it and be straight up when asked to tell how you did it by saying " I am not telling" and live with your choices. there are going to be reactions to that statement and they are not unexpected given the nature of the group.

there are place to show such work where secrets are expected and questions are not asked. this is not one of them.
 
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wolftat said:
My concern about it becoming public stems from the practice of taking our hard work and turning it into mass made blanks, like the circuit board. I personally don't understand why so many want a tutorial instead of breaking it down on there own like most of us have. Why do we always need to take the easy way out of something that is either a business as it is for me or a hobby as it is for so many. I especially feel that when this was a hobby for me, figuring things out on my own waas much more gratifying than following directions. Since this is supposed to be about freedom of creation, why not try and create something that hasn't been done? I am always doing things in my shop to try and come up with something new and different.
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You're preaching to the choir here. My only point about this particular style is that it's very labor intensive, so if people are too lazy to figure it out, they're going to be way too lazy to actually make one.

I also agree with you about creating something that hasn't been done. I've been working on a particular style on and off for 2 years. It's something I've never seen before, although I haven't specifically searched for it; not wanting to be influenced by what I might find. I haven't discussed it with anyone, because I hope to submit it to the Guild when and if I ever get it right.

I would conclude by saying to anyone out there, even though it seems like every type of pen imaginable has already been made, you just have to imagine better than that.
 
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Think compound miters (angle in 3 dimensions) and make the practice pieces large -- It gets easier that way.
 
Related as it will show you the basics in segmentation to make the 360 is the book

Beyond Basic Turning by Jack Cox Lynden Press 1993 ISBN 0-94196-25-2

This is out of printer but is available 2nd hand for a nominal price. Good basic on segmentation that will get you the thinking tools for segment construction.

The same basic techniques to make a 360 Herringbone pen blank will also make a 360 herringbone bowl blank -- Most of the pieces will likely be bigger.
 
Rollerbob said:
Well, well ,well a man trying his darndest to mind his own business, slaving on this dang bone design, and turn on the computer to find that his good name has been violated by a few Upperstatesmen.:frown: Questioning if he is able to withstand the heat of the kitchen, so to speak.:rolleyes: Well, I'm here to tell ya, my boots are big enough to handle what's in them as well as what gets on them!!!!:biggrin::devil::cowboy:
So, no harm no foul applies!!!!:rain::biggrin: Ed, Cav is still a little hurt about the "pink thing"! :tongue::tongue:
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Nah, not hurt at all. Just glad you didn't do a slimline!!:eek:
 
Lazy OR Intuitive/Perceptive Challenged?

There are two groups of people that are being lumped into one and both are being bashed because one is lazy.

I firmly believe if you don't work, you don't eat, and some will know what I am referring to - the Lazy. However, I can see quickly people jumping on me because they are out of work, and not because they are lazy.

IN this same theme, Not EVERY person that is "intuitive and perceptive" challenged is lazy. I learned this the hard way. You folks that lump EVERY person into the "Lazy" camp because they can't figure things out - are very limited in your understanding of people. Should we limit people from driving because they don't understand the concepts between cetane and octane? For all practical purposes following that logic, we should!

I work with many people who are brilliant and even some that are genius (just not ingenious) but they are intuitive and logic challenged. They are NOT lazy. What if I were to think like this: You do not think like me . . you are just dumb and lazy! This dismissive attitude usually comes from people who are inventive and visionary for sure and will often say of themselves "I am a self made man, I did this myself. I took the time to figure this out myself. So, you do the same. I am proud of myself. Myself!

I speak as one who can usually figure things out almost instantly; I can look at something and figure out not only how it was made or how it works - but the starting point also. With this same intuitveness - I also watch people and figure out that many/most are not lazy but just "intuitive and perceptive" challenged.

Where I am different from the non-sharing crowd - is that I am not going to penalize the intuitive and logic "challenged" because of the lazy few. LOTS of great people who are "list people". LOML is one and I wouldn't trade her for anything. She is anything BUT lazy. And so are many here.


Lumping everyone into "LAZY" for the purpose of not sharing is dismissive, which is the antithesis of this forum's basic purpose.
 
GaryMGg said:
Finally, I want to draw your attention to the work being done by a friend of mine, Darryl M., who posts here infrequently:

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/18179

After you look at that link, look at a bunch of his projects online at the LJ.
When I started conversing with Darryl about his work, he'd been making plain wood pens for many months. I knew he had a huge talent, but he was lazy -- he wouldn't push himself. I gnawed at him a bit and pushed and prodded and now he shines like the star he always was. Look at the mastery of his workmanship! I have nothing to do with the quality of his craft; I merely antagonized him enough to help him throw off the lazy man's yoke.
So, I suggest, those of you who wish to learn to make the HB 360 -- throw off the lazy man's yoke, go out to the shop, and cut some wood. Glue some wood. Test your ideas. Test your mettle. Teach your inner child how to transform wishes and wants into self-fulfilling actualizations. Train yourself to do rather than desire. And, make some great pens.

Cheers,
G
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Gary did push me. In fact he pushed me real hard and I appreciate every single little bit of it!

I see nothing wrong with not sharing a process. I've toyed with the idea of figuring out the 360HB as well. I just haven't put a whole lot of effort into it yet. It could be an interesting way to twist up the bottle stoppers I've been making though...!

I like the concept of this thread as well. I think we do need to continue pushing ourselves and work out our own solutions.
 
Am I wrong or has this thread gotten away from it's intent?

I thought (right or wrong) that this was supposed to be a thread where those of us who don't know how to make a HB 360 were going to put forth ideas how to create one.

I think it's turning into a soap box for whether those of us who don't know how to do something deserve to have the knowledge given to us.

If the intent of this thread was to start this kind of philisophical discussion as to whether we should be given any help or knowledge, I humbly apologize. I think, however, there is a different thread that was already discussing that.

While I appreciate that there are different opinions on whether the knowledge should be shared, I think that further discussion on that should be continued on the other thread.

I keep seeing people apologizing for hijacking other threads, so thought that a gentle reminder here would be appropriate and I apologize for getting caught up in the discussion of right or wrong myself.:)
 
schnikies.


That was a long 9 pages of reading. I think it is simple as this:

People are philophisizing on why people want a tutorial on this, and people are getting mad at each other for defending one side or aother. Fact is, with the amount of cutting and glue up, not to mention the size of the pieces, Not many people could or would do it even if they did have the know how.

I understand both sides, but as has been metioned, this thread was hijacked long ago.

As soon as the "computer" blanks hit the market, there were guys trying to figure out how to do it. As soon as the snake hit the scene, there were cats trying to learn the secrets.

Today, my wife and i went to the hardware store. They had a little mini parkbench. My wife pointed at it and said "we are going to get the Grandbaby one of those." I glanced at it, and said "No, I will make her one of those."

Moral of that story: Don't show your top secret blank to a bunch of guys famous for saying "I can make that in my shop!" if you don't want them to hound dog you abot the how to's and where for's.


For those trying to figure out the secret. As has been mentioned, there are tons of places that this information is easily accessible, you would just have to transfer it to the application. Segmented turning has been around ever since the first turner found himself with a box full of tiny pieces and lots of glue, and the Harringbone pattern almost as long. :)
 
ngeb528 said:
Am I wrong or has this thread gotten away from it's intent?

I thought (right or wrong) that this was supposed to be a thread where those of us who don't know how to make a HB 360 were going to put forth ideas how to create one.

I think it's turning into a soap box for whether those of us who don't know how to do something deserve to have the knowledge given to us.

If the intent of this thread was to start this kind of philisophical discussion as to whether we should be given any help or knowledge, I humbly apologize. I think, however, there is a different thread that was already discussing that.

While I appreciate that there are different opinions on whether the knowledge should be shared, I think that further discussion on that should be continued on the other thread.

I keep seeing people apologizing for hijacking other threads, so thought that a gentle reminder here would be appropriate and I apologize for getting caught up in the discussion of right or wrong myself.:)
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That is a fine reminder indeed Nancy. You are absolutely correct! I do believe that there are at least two other threads going presently with plenty of "preaching" in them and that is fine. But, you are correct when you remind us that this particular thread is meant for those that wish to kick productive ideas around pertaining to the 360 HB.

So, in fairness to those that do wish to constructively brainstorm with their fellow pen turners, I would ask that you others that wish to continue the discussion of the rights, wrongs and whatevers of sharing information, please take it back to the other threads.

Thank you!
 
Daniel said:
I may have missed it but I have not seen where anyone has asked how to do it so they can sell it.

there are place to show such work where secrets are expected and questions are not asked. this is not one of them.
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But Daniel, one of those "big companies" will steal the idea and make money from it and become famous and we will miss out on our fame and fortune!
 
On the issue of kicking ideas around. I remember seeing at least a couple posts with people saying they got it. maybe we should start a list of those that have accomplished it or at least figured it out. I have an idea but have not been able to try it out. At any rate it would be encouraging to see a list of those that did make their way through it.
 
No..I'm just making a jig to mass produce 8 sided herringbone blanks at a super cheap price to sell on ebay.
So when you say it varies..what you mean is it depends on the size of the pen you want it to fit, that's how I take it anyhow. So if it's too big, make a bigger pen and downsize the next one is all.:wink:
 
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I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.
 
twoofakind said:
I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.
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I use CA for most of my segmenting work.

Disposable gloves; get some; use them.
 
I use a bandsaw for the majority of my work. Primarily because I don't own an tablesaw.

CA all the way. You get used to the finger thing. As a matter of fact, it seems that the more glue that builds up on your finger tips, the less they stick to the piece. DAMHIKT:biggrin: Plus it really helps that my children are like monkeys and have discovered that it is fun to pick the glue from dads fingers!!!

twoofakind said:
I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.
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I think I got a little ambitious with my first blank, I made them ~1/8" thick....I thought I would never get finished with that thing! The one I'm working on now I made the pieces a little thicker. I need to get a thicker blade for the band saw as I am losing a bunch in the thickness of the blade, for every cut I make I lose almost as much as I keep.
Andy
 
I haven't made one in a long time, but at 1/8" thick you should need around 160 pieces and it usally takes me about 3 hours to cut and piece them together. BTW, I've switched to wood glue unless its not all wood.
 
TribalRR said:
I haven't made one in a long time, but at 1/8" thick you should need around 160 pieces and it usally takes me about 3 hours to cut and piece them together. BTW, I've switched to wood glue unless its not all wood.
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Chip,

I am glad you chimed in on this. Your black/silver pen still stands out as the standard to which I can only aspire!
 
There's a gentleman who posts on LJ
He uses an old 8" Homecraft Table Saw with the blade reversed and the motor replaced by a connection to a bicycle crank and bottom bracket such that he
pedals the blade at about 1800 RPM. He makes 3D looking segmented wood projects.
If you search him out, it will be instructive; his username is WoodMosaics.

Cheers,
G
 
beck3906 said:
Is there a picture of this pen somewhere?
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Here's one:
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/5346/1_Hbone.JPG

1_Hbone.jpg
 
Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.
 
rjwolfe3 said:
Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.
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I think the 'secret' to jigs is to work backwards.

Imagine what it is you want to accomplish for a cut.
picture the blank being cut that way .. how is it positioned on
the table? How is it oriented toward the blade?
Working backwards, what would you build to hold the blank
in this position? How would you make sure the jig would
travel the way you want it to? Would it ride in a miter slot?
against a rip fence? How would you secure the blank to it?
Clamps? a support block? More than one?
 
NewLondon88 said:
I think the 'secret' to jigs is to work backwards.

Imagine what it is you want to accomplish for a cut.
picture the blank being cut that way .. how is it positioned on
the table? How is it oriented toward the blade?
Working backwards, what would you build to hold the blank
in this position? How would you make sure the jig would
travel the way you want it to? Would it ride in a miter slot?
against a rip fence? How would you secure the blank to it?
Clamps? a support block? More than one?
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Wooooooo and the mystery continues!!!:frown:
 
A Celtic Knot could be a distant, distant cousin of an HB 360.
A `Feather' could be a distant, distant cousin to an HB 360.
If you look at the black and silver pen pictured about, what do you see?
How many pieces can you see both large and small?
:wink:
 
twoofakind said:
I am in the process making a couple of blanks now and curious of other peoples method. Do you cut them on a table saw? Bandsaw? What glue are you using? I'm using CA and have glued my fingers to the blank a couple of times already! Oh, I'm also using a table saw for now.
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I prefer to use a bandsaw and I am using thick CA. The glueing of the fingers to the blank is not required, but is an option that I have chosen to practice at every possible chance I get.:biggrin:
 
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rjwolfe3 said:
Would anyone be willing to point me in the directions of the jigs for a bandsaw to attempt these blanks? My tablesaw sucks but I have a really nice bandsaw. I just feel like keeping all of my fingers at the end of the day. Not looking for a handout, just some direction.
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I'm still working on my bandsaw sled. I am trying to keep the rest of my fingers on my hand. When I get my sled done, I will be happy to post some pics and measurements if wanted.
 
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