problems with CA finish

[peter1958]

Today someone came to pickup a pen but when i opened the box i saw this one with a very bad finish.
What can it be? Temperature? thicker glue? oily wood?
I just don't know what is happening. 4 or 5 more have that issue.

 

[BCnabe]

Does it rub off? I've put pens in an enclosed case soon after finishing and they "off-gassed" causing a similar look.

If it doesn't rub off, what were the steps in your finishing process? Did you wet sand?

 

[TonyL]

it could be a dozen things - many of which you named. I would try another, preferably new, bottle of CA . you will figure it out!

 

[Carl Fisher]

The most common cause of that is moisture or high humidity as the CA is curing. Many times this happens on oily woods or woods that are not fully dried. However yes there are dozens of other possible reasons. Old CA or too much accelerator can cause this as well.

Only real option is to scrap it down and refinish.

 

[peter1958]

Does it rub off? I've put pens in an enclosed case soon after finishing and they "off-gassed" causing a similar look.

If it doesn't rub off, what were the steps in your finishing process? Did you wet sand?

Well, i went to the shop with 2 of the pens that had the problem.
I sanded the glue off and i did see pure wood without penetration of CA. I used a ca on these pens that were midlle viscosity.
Now i started with a thin CA, 3 coats and let it dry without accelerator.
The the gap filling middle viscosity again. Both bottles were as good as new. Only 10 days in my posession.

The one on the photo i tried to peel off the glue, but that didn't come off at all. started sanding with 120 grit, ended with 1000.
I'll let them out the penbox for a week or 2.

 

[peter1958]

The most common cause of that is moisture or high humidity as the CA is curing. Many times this happens on oily woods or woods that are not fully dried. However yes there are dozens of other possible reasons. Old CA or too much accelerator can cause this as well.

Only real option is to scrap it down and refinish.

Yes, so i did refinish. sanded to 1000 grit dry, cleaned it with alcohol, let that dry and started with new CA finisch. 4 coats of middle viscosity and sanded from 1000 to 12000

 

[leehljp]

It looks like gassing off. But there are two different reasons: Gassing off and moisture. On the outside is usually gassing off; inside the CA itself and under the CA - is moisture as though denatured alcohol (DNA) was used to clean it, or some brands of accelerator were used. CA and moisture such as high humidity and or DNA contribute to fogging up. DNA causes this from time to time, but the more chemical/mineral inputs are used, the more chances for problems.

Gassing off is letting it set out in the open or open box-drawer for 24-48 hours before enclosing. This does not happen on a repeatable scale, as temp and relative humidity seem to play a minor part.

One other hint: this is not flat wood or furniture. On pens, people bring the pens to about a foot (25cm-30cm) from their eyes and look the pen over carefully, just admiring it. People do not do that on tables or cabinets or book cases. AND 30cm from the eyes, they can see sandpaper scratch marks that have "mostly" been sanded out, but the tale-tale signs are there. Pens, due to their size and the way they are inspected, should not be sanded at anything less than 320; and 400 is my starting point as well as others with fine finishes.

I can't tell you how many people do this and then post pictures of nice looking pens that they are proud of, but experienced turners spot immediately the 120-150 sandpaper scratches that the turner overlooks. New pens are inspected from 25-30cm (about a foot) or closer. Deep scratches from 120 remain after a dozen sanding regimen from successive higher grit sanding. It only takes a minute or two more to start with 320 or 400 and the final finish will show the detail used.

 

[peter1958]

It looks like gassing off. But there are two different reasons: Gassing off and moisture. On the outside is usually gassing off; in the CA itself un under the CA is moisture as though denatured alcohol was used to clean it or some brands of accelerator were used.

Gassing off is letting it set out in the open or open box-drawer for 24-48 hours before enclosing. This does not happen on a repeatable scale, as temp and relative humidity seem to play a minor part.

Most of the woods i already have years in the shop, on a shelf against the wall. so moisture i don't believe yet. I'll ask my son in law for the moisture meter

 

[egnald]

One of the very first pens I made (about 4 years ago) had the same problem but the grey-ish stuff didn't appear or I didn't notice it for a few weeks. The wood was American Black Walnut that I know was dry. I had used plain old inexpensive CA glue - the kind that comes on blister packs from the big box store. I don't know if that was the problem or not, but after going to a more reputable system I have never experienced the problem again, so I have always just assumed it was the CA glue and how it adhered to the wood.

There are a lot of CA products available that are tried and true based on the success of many pen turners. I know many on the forum really tout the GluBoost system. Others use the PSI Penmakers products or Starbond. There are also those that use Super T CA from Satellite City or Titebond. Personally I use the Stick Fast system that is labeled CA "Wood Finish" instead of CA "Glue" (they might be the same, but they sell both each with its own label).

I'm sure that all of them have small variations in formulations and all have been used successfully. The best advise I can offer is to pick something that is readily available and give it a try. Then, once you develop a regimen that works for you, become brand loyal and stick to your regimen for consistent and satisfactory results.

Regards,
Dave

 

[jttheclockman]

As we have read over the past 15 years here there are as many variations of doing a CA finish as there are members here. My thoughts are and this is my opinion. Stop sanding to such a high grit. Stop at either 400 or 600 and that is all. What you are doing is with every increased grit number you are closing the grain and pores of the wood. Leave some tooth for the adhesive to adhere to. I never go past 600 grit and usually stop at 400. Next any wood and especially oily wood needs to be wiped with a dissolve and I like to use acetone. or DNA. Then after this drys, use a couple coats of thin CA and no accelerator. After that is now sealed so proced to med CA and finish as desired. Make sure though you seal ends if you are wet sanding. I never had a problem following these steps and yes I use Satellite City CA.

 

[leehljp]

Most of the woods i already have years in the shop, on a shelf against the wall. so moisture i don't believe yet. I'll ask my son in law for the moisture meter

The moisture that affects CA finishes in most pen blanks are not from moisture in the wood (i.e. green wood) per se. It comes from wiping it with DNA and sometimes it comes in from accelerant, and there is also the Humidity factor. DNA cooling effect will draw moister into the wood. Not much but enough to affect the CA from the wood side.

The room humidity of about 75% and higher can cause the same thing, especially during temp swings such as a warm room and then closing the door and cutting the heat down for the night. Some people have problems with humidity and some do not. Most of the time it is the location - either dry regions, or high humid locations plus the temperature.

These situations do not occur with flat wood or larger woods with different finishes such as with large bowls.

 

[Carl Fisher]

As we have read over the past 15 years here there are as many variations of doing a CA finish as there are members here. My thoughts are and this is my opinion. Stop sanding to such a high grit. Stop at either 400 or 600 and that is all. What you are doing is with every increased grit number you are closing the grain and pores of the wood. Leave some tooth for the adhesive to adhere to. I never go past 600 grit and usually stop at 400. Next any wood and especially oily wood needs to be wiped with a dissolve and I like to use acetone. or DNA. Then after this drys, use a couple coats of thin CA and no accelerator. After that is now sealed so proced to med CA and finish as desired. Make sure though you seal ends if you are wet sanding. I never had a problem following these steps and yes I use Satellite City CA.

^^ This ^^

Sometimes a change to your prep and even your first few base layers (think of them as primer) can have a huge impact on the final result.

 

[peter1958]

^^ This ^^

Sometimes a change to your prep and even your first few base layers (think of them as primer) can have a huge impact on the final result.

I'm learning and learning. GREAT!! When i cleaned the blanks with DNA a little color came off the blanks. I used thin CA, from a woodturners shop here in the Netherlands, No brand on the bottle. But it works very well. I like segmenting very much and working with veneers for contrast.
The middle viscous CA i can't use very well for that, or glueing every part at one time. The thin CA is consumed by the wood. So all parts clamping and drowned with thin CA works very well. The i showed was made before i used the thin CA, only the thicker version.
Now i do exactly as you, 2 or 3 coats of thin without accelerator, then the thicker one 3-5 coats and only a little accelerator for 1 or 2 coats.
That gives the best surface until now.

 

[leehljp]

I'm learning and learning. GREAT!! When i cleaned the blanks with DNA a little color came off the blanks.

DNA somewhat, and acetone especially does take some of the color out of certain woods such as dark brown, black and bright red woods. Some oils, particularly amber like oils add great tone to tan and brown woods.