Does your CA do this? I think not....

[alphageek]

Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA

Roy, I don't see any way to get "flex" from that chart other that the 2 products named flex. That chart shows 5 different products as best for rubber. That chart has nothing to do with the flexibility of the product. It is a chart of which of their CA glues are recommended for which materials. ( wood, rubber,etc.).

One thing that may not be clear to people is what they mean by CA hinge. Those of us who have built model airplanes in the past know what those are... Most penturners probably do not. A CA hinge is a sandwich .. It is normally a layer of Mylar with a layer of fabric or paper on top and bottom. A slit is made into the control surfaces of the model airplane and the hinge is inserted. Thin CA is then wicked into the slot to bond the hinge material to the wing or tail surfaces. The CA holds in the hinge, it doesn't make it.

In general any THIN CA glue is good for these "CA hinges"... This company just makes one that it markets specifically for that. Maybe it works better for the purpose they are listing... Maybe it works better for pens too.... However, this chart does nothing to actually prove which contains any "flex agents".

 

[edstreet]

Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA

Roy, I don't see any way to get "flex" from that chart other that the 2 products named flex. That chart shows 5 different products as best for rubber. That chart has nothing to do with the flexibility of the product. It is a chart of which of their CA glues are recommended for which materials. ( wood, rubber,etc.).

One thing that may not be clear to people is what they mean by CA hinge. Those of us who have built model airplanes in the past know what those are... Most penturners probably do not. A CA hinge is a sandwich .. It is normally a layer of Mylar with a layer of fabric or paper on top and bottom. A slit is made into the control surfaces of the model airplane and the hinge is inserted. Thin CA is then wicked into the slot to bond the hinge material to the wing or tail surfaces. The CA holds in the hinge, it doesn't make it.

In general any THIN CA glue is good for these "CA hinges"... This company just makes one that it markets specifically for that. Maybe it works better for the purpose they are listing... Maybe it works better for pens too.... However, this chart does nothing to actually prove which contains any "flex agents".

How about when you put a finished pen, WITH CA, in the chuck, clamp it down good and you can watch the CA flex and not shatter?

Also when you call the company and confirm it?

One can also read.

SUPER-GOLD™ and SUPER-GOLD+™ are our odorless INSTA-CURE CAs They are non-frosting and take only 2 or 3 seconds longer to bond. There are no fumes that irritate the nose and eyes. The SUPER-GOLD™'s do not attack white foam; therefore, they can be used in the building of foam core wings and the assembly and repair of plastic and foam ARF's. They will not fog clear plastic. SUPER-GOLD+™ is ideal for attaching clear canopies in plastic model kits; however, MAXI-CURE™ is still recommended for assembling the rest of plastic kits. Wood can be bonded to white foam with SUPER-GOLD +™ in less than fifteen seconds. For bonding foam to foam, spray a very light fog of INSTA-SET™ to one piece and apply SUPER-GOLD+™ to the other before joining. Excess INSTA-SET™ may create too much heat, which can melt the foam. Both SUPER-GOLD™'s cure to a more flexible consistency for better shock absorbtion. Whenever a large amount of CA is to be used in such applications as saturating fiberglass or Kevlar, SUPER-GOLD™ eliminates the irritating fumes from the evaporating monomer that make repeated use of CA unpleasant at times.

 

[alphageek]

How about when you put a finished pen, WITH CA, in the chuck, clamp it down good and you can watch the CA flex and not shatter? Also when you call the company and confirm it?

I wasn't arguing with you calling the company, I was asking how that chart was supposed to answer the question. "Ed says" doesn't help when people read this later and want to compare brands, types,etc.

As for your "clamp test" - I'd have to see what you mean by clamp it down good. Any significant clamping is going to harm the pen regardless of CA shattering or not. I have seen this myself. I've done a CA finish in the past (closed end pen) where it tried to put it back in a chuck to clean up the closed end... The wood got damaged, but my finish didn't shatter. Does that mean my CA passes a flex test?

 

[edstreet]

What CA are you using?

Also you never answered MY question but I have answered several of yours. Quid Pro Quo.

 

[alphageek]

What CA are you using? Also you never answered MY question but I have answered several of yours. Quid Pro Quo.

Î have no problem answer that... I have in the past. I normally use E-Z bond, but in a pinch if I have run out or let it get to old I have used Bsi or Zap brands from a local hobby shop.

However, like I've said in the other thread I don't use accelerator when I finish... I either do blo/ca or straight CA.

Way back when the local chapters first formed, I demod my finish to the Milwaukee chapter. Unfortunately they didn't video back then or I'd share it.

 

[alphageek]

One can also read.

FYI - that boldest part of the post (which it turns out forum runner doesn't bold at all dang it) is the best answer you had given. That answers the "how do we know flexible" way more than the chart. Quoting the movie Battleship: "Lead with that next time".

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.

Dean, I'm not sure and I could be wrong but the chart shows the Supergold best for rubber and good for hinge. I would guess that's a flex CA

Roy, I don't see any way to get "flex" from that chart other that the 2 products named flex. That chart shows 5 different products as best for rubber. That chart has nothing to do with the flexibility of the product. It is a chart of which of their CA glues are recommended for which materials. ( wood, rubber,etc.).

One thing that may not be clear to people is what they mean by CA hinge. Those of us who have built model airplanes in the past know what those are... Most penturners probably do not. A CA hinge is a sandwich .. It is normally a layer of Mylar with a layer of fabric or paper on top and bottom. A slit is made into the control surfaces of the model airplane and the hinge is inserted. Thin CA is then wicked into the slot to bond the hinge material to the wing or tail surfaces. The CA holds in the hinge, it doesn't make it.

In general any THIN CA glue is good for these "CA hinges"... This company just makes one that it markets specifically for that. Maybe it works better for the purpose they are listing... Maybe it works better for pens too.... However, this chart does nothing to actually prove which contains any "flex agents".

 

[alphageek]

Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.

Here is a video link for those who might not be able to visualize what I described.

https://youtu.be/QpwEvmhpAjY

As you can see in the video, the hinge itself is flexible and the important parts of the CA are its wicking ability and its strength. I'm not saying that the CA can't be flexible too, I just wanted people to understand that a "CA hinge" is a hinge glued in by CA, not a hinge made from CA.

And now I have the urge to build another model plane... It's been years and I don't need another hobby!! I may have to try and dig out some pictures of my planes to share.

 

[edstreet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4

This is rather on the thick side. This was build up on the bushings. After this video the ends were trimmed then thickness was removed.

Going back to what Jeremiah said, when you are dealing with many of these additives your application methods need to also change, as well as the accelerator to achieve the best results possible.

 

[alphageek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4

This is rather on the thick side. This was build up on the bushings. After this video the ends were trimmed then thickness was removed.

Going back to what Jeremiah said, when you are dealing with many of these additives your application methods need to also change, as well as the accelerator to achieve the best results possible.

That looks pretty flexible (weird but it doesn't "sound" flexible-it sounds crunchy but that might be just because of the way you rub it as you bend it)... But it doesn't look very clear? Its pretty opaque - is that from your wax on the bushings or something else??

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Video, helped explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.

Dean, as I had said I could be wrong, just thought that if it was good for rubber it would have to be flexible, maybe not. Thanks for the explanation as to CA hinge, I did not know that.

Here is a video link for those who might not be able to visualize what I described.

https://youtu.be/QpwEvmhpAjY

As you can see in the video, the hinge itself is flexible and the important parts of the CA are its wicking ability and its strength. I'm not saying that the CA can't be flexible too, I just wanted people to understand that a "CA hinge" is a hinge glued in by CA, not a hinge made from CA.

And now I have the urge to build another model plane... It's been years and I don't need another hobby!! I may have to try and dig out some pictures of my planes to share.

 

[edstreet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpl_WTPIal4

This is rather on the thick side. This was build up on the bushings. After this video the ends were trimmed then thickness was removed.

Going back to what Jeremiah said, when you are dealing with many of these additives your application methods need to also change, as well as the accelerator to achieve the best results possible.

That looks pretty flexible (weird but it doesn't "sound" flexible-it sounds crunchy but that might be just because of the way you rub it as you bend it)... But it doesn't look very clear? Its pretty opaque - is that from your wax on the bushings or something else??

If I was rubbed with 240 grit sandpaper I would not be clear either

This best shows things.

Yes by flexing the ends like that they will break, more often cleanly than not.

 

[alphageek]

Video, helped explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.

I don't think so Roy... you have to be careful reading data into a chart thats not there. If Ed is right and we have to be very picky about choosing our glue for flexible agents, then reading "rubber=flexible glue" doesn't ring right. Look down the rubber column. 5 items are "best", 3 are good and 4 aren't marked. If having to glue rubber means you have to be flexible, that means 2/3 of the products are, which doesn't line up with what I think we are being told... From whats said above, only the supergold and insta-flex have had any claim in this thread of being flexible ones (and there is good reasons for some CAs to not be flexible).

 

[edstreet]

Video, helped explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.

I don't think so Roy... you have to be careful reading data into a chart thats not there. If Ed is right and we have to be very picky about choosing our glue for flexible agents, then reading "rubber=flexible glue" doesn't ring right. Look down the rubber column. 5 items are "best", 3 are good and 4 aren't marked. If having to glue rubber means you have to be flexible, that means 2/3 of the products are, which doesn't line up with what I think we are being told... From whats said above, only the supergold and insta-flex have had any claim in this thread of being flexible ones (and there is good reasons for some CAs to not be flexible).

sooo flexible material meets non-flexible glue what do you think the results will be?

 

[Dale Lynch]

I use Hyperbond thin flex CA and accelerator through various layers.The finish on this pen is about 3-4 thousands thick,wet sanded 2000g buffed with Dico PBC.

It works beautifully for a finish.

After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.

Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..

 

[alphageek]

sooo flexible material meets non-flexible glue what do you think the results will be?

I'm guessing not really all that different than when non-flexible material meets flexible glue.

If your claiming that only flexible glue can bond flexible materials? Then you're going to paint yourself into a corner when the glues you claim aren't flexible can bond rubber just as well as those that are.

 

[alphageek]

And with that last post, I think I'm done with this thread for a while.. I think your the one trying to bait me now with that last post. I believe that we've added as much use to IAP here until some others come in to post. I'm not trying to knock flex - I think there is a strong chance for benefit to the community. But without some questions being answered for the public, the information shared was sparse... Now it's not as sparse.

 

[edstreet]

I use Hyperbond thin flex CA and accelerator through various layers.The finish on this pen is about 3-4 thousands thick,wet sanded 2000g buffed with Dico PBC.

It works beautifully for a finish.

After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.

Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..

Even with basic logic that would make sense. One of the strongest points to flex agents is more freedom of movement. In your case that is VERY bad. Also I would have to ask if the glue was non-flexible would there now be a crack in the seam since the wood did shift? I would think that answer would lie in the strength of the glue used. Something like locktite E-120HP it would not but regular CA I would think would.

 

[edstreet]

Flexible glue + non-flexible material = no flexing going on.

Flexible glue + flexible material = less stress, less cracking and stronger bond joint.

Non-flexible glue + flexible material = CRACK

 

[Dale Lynch]

Not being too keen on logic I found out the hard way.

 

[Smitty37]

Video, helped explain the hinge but I still wonder if it's best for rubber would it not have to be flexible? I'm trying to visualize gluing two pieces of rubber together with a non flex Ca and bending the two pieces slightly . Would not the joint break whereas if it was a flex CA on a slight bent the CA would flex therefore the joint would hold. Not to argue just why would it be best for rubber if not it being flexible, or is it just that it bonds best to rubber. I guess it could be be both.

I don't think so Roy... you have to be careful reading data into a chart thats not there. If Ed is right and we have to be very picky about choosing our glue for flexible agents, then reading "rubber=flexible glue" doesn't ring right. Look down the rubber column. 5 items are "best", 3 are good and 4 aren't marked. If having to glue rubber means you have to be flexible, that means 2/3 of the products are, which doesn't line up with what I think we are being told... From whats said above, only the supergold and insta-flex have had any claim in this thread of being flexible ones (and there is good reasons for some CAs to not be flexible).

sooo flexible material meets non-flexible glue what do you think the results will be?

I am just guessing here but I have the idea that it depends on the joint to a large degree and what you were bonding the flexible material to. Would it not?

Intuitively I would think bonding two pieces of rubber together would differ from bonding a piece of rubber to a piece of wood or bonding two pieces of flexible plexiglass the bond would differ than bonding two pieces rubber.

 

[Sylvanite]

After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.

Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..

I suspect that has more to do with grain orientation than with the glue.

When wood expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity, it typically moves more in the direction of the grain than perpendicular to it. Therefore, if your segmentation shows both face-grain and end-grain, then when the woods expand, the end-grain will become proud of the face grain. I've noticed that happening even when using regular non-flexible CA glue for the segmentation. Such movement also tends to fracture the finish at the glue lines.

I've taken to cutting wood segments so that the grain runs longitudinally to the pen axis for all the pieces. That way, they all tend to move most in the same direction. This minimizes the effect (but doesn't eliminate it entirely, as different types of wood still expand and contract at different rates).

I hope that helps,
Eric

 

[Dale Lynch]

After time the flex ca showed weakness.That is using it to segment the blank.The CA being flexable allowed the woods to shift independantly under the outer finish.You can feel every seam now.

Great for a finish,poor for segmenting wood..

I suspect that has more to do with grain orientation than with the glue.

When wood expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity, it typically moves more in the direction of the grain than perpendicular to it. Therefore, if your segmentation shows both face-grain and end-grain, then when the woods expand, the end-grain will become proud of the face grain. I've noticed that happening even when using regular non-flexible CA glue for the segmentation. Such movement also tends to fracture the finish at the glue lines.

I've taken to cutting wood segments so that the grain runs longitudinally to the pen axis for all the pieces. That way, they all tend to move most in the same direction. This minimizes the effect (but doesn't eliminate it entirely, as different types of wood still expand and contract at different rates).

I hope that helps,
Eric

That is what I was trying to show,that flex CA may not be the best glue for wood to wood segmenting.

Held up great for the finish,no fractures or cracks,just smooth,crystal clear bumps at the seams.

 

[alphageek]

That is what I was trying to show,that flex CA may not be the best glue for wood to wood segmenting.

Held up great for the finish,no fractures or cracks,just smooth,crystal clear bumps at the seams.

Dale, I think what Eric was trying to say is that you can't blame just the flex CA for the bumps at the seams. He was describing some hints to reduce the bumps no matter what glue you use. Those "bumps" or ridges are the bane of all of us who segment, and it only gets worse the more diverse the materials.

 

[Dale Lynch]

I don't talk good,I wasn't trying to blame the CA for failing.I agree with eric about the woods moving everywichway.Just trying to illustrate the performace limitations of this particular CA.Went back to using titebond 3,it takes longer but restricts movement between the woods better.

 

[edstreet]

Spanx brings up a very good point. There is on one perfect glue for every situation. Same holds true with many things, like methods, thoughts, vendors, products.

 

[alphageek]

Spanx brings up a very good point. There is on one perfect glue for every situation. Same holds true with many things, like methods, thoughts, vendors, products.

Glad you're finally seeing that. The same idea was posted on the very first reply to this thread.

There is at least 2 sides to every debate and product.

Oh, wait - that was me! :biggrin:

 

[edstreet]

Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.

 

[alphageek]

Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.

Dude... learn what smilies are for!!!

 

[farmer]

Wow ED

Now you are being obtuse and argumentative, again.

Did you ever think for a second that it would of been that big of a hassle to talk about CA glue or a CA finish .


At first I was more interested in it glueing pieces of wood to getter like inlays or segmenting

But when the one guy replied that he didn't care for the ca as holding wood together.

Personally I worry about my products falling apart 10 years down the road.
Drying time is a killer if you are doing production and trying to make any wooden product as fast as possible, ( which I have pretty much given up on ).
I just buy more lathes because I am using my lathe to clamp the piece of wood on then I cut the wood to the right thickness.
I know this technic sounds strange but I can live cut wood to the thickness of a human hair.
MY point is It is it takes any where from 30 minutes to 24 hours for the glue or epoxy to set up.
If I make something that has 200 inlays that is allot of time waiting for glue to dry .......
So I was hoping that this flexible Super glue would dry fast be extremely strong and will hold its strength for a few decades .

So how is the glue for holding wood together ?
How long does it bond?
Your personal opinion based on your research how is the finish.

Personally I want a hard finish............

 

[nativewooder]

All the CA glue I have ever used had an expected life, in use, of about 10 years, so keep an eye on your turned wood treasures that have cracks and such filled with CA.