A couple of questions concerning Buys

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Status
Not open for further replies.

Monty

Group Buy Coordinator
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
7,682
Location
Pearland, Texas, USA.
I have received a few PMs from a couple of people asking what liability a person running a GB would have should a package get lost in the mail and the recipient had opted not to purchase insurance. It was suggested that if payment was through PP and the package was shipped not using PP, that PP could refund the money from account of the person running the GB, but if it was shipped using PP and the address was confirmed in PP, that PP would support the sender.

I have also received several PMs concerning requiring the use Friends & Family so one will not have to pay a PP fee for GBs. One member has researched this and was informed by PP that for our purpose, this would be a correct usage of F&F. The only drawback I see to this is that the mailing address of the recipient is not automatically sent to the GB leader. Would you like to see F&F be added as a requirement for payment for Group Buys?

Please post any comments you may have on these items.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Dan Masshardt

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2013
Messages
4,802
Location
Mechanicsburg, PA
The offer for insurance is always presented. If a package is lost, the liability is not on the gb coordinator.

If the coordinator would scam or something, that would be another issue.

The other major aspect of regular PayPal is that it offers buyer protection. Friends and family does not to my knowledge.

As a buyer, I prefer to not pay the PayPal fee. If I was the coordinator, the label thing is easier with the addresses in...

I believe that it should be up to whoever coordinates which PayPal options(s) they want to use. I also think that although I'd use the friends option given the choice, buyers should prob be able to choose to have protection if they like.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
23,631
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
A more interesting question, Monty.

If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".

I know for a fact that the Chinese sources will tell you they are
Velly solly, but the order is paid for in advance and you are SOL.

Are all participants in these group buys prepared to lose their money, in the event the shipment is lost?
 
Last edited:

The Penguin

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,133
Location
Houston, TX
My opinions...

A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).

If a GB participant declines/refuses insurance and then tries to file a paypal claim against the GB coordinator to get his money back - that is a dick move and that participant should be banned from ALL future group purchases - and possibly removed from IAP. Something like that is simply uncalled for and goes against the spirit of IAP.


on F&F transfers - I agree that for what we do, it really qualifies for F&F - though a regular transfer does give the GB participants an extra level of "comfort" (that they'll get their stuff, and that Paypal won't lock down their accounts). It is tremendously convenient to pay for shipping labels within paypal. That convenience is lost with the F&F feature. 3-4% (or so) can add up to quite a bit.


in 2013 I coordinated easily $20,000 in group buys and had zero issues with packages disappearing or with standard or F&F transfers. Let's hope it stays that way.
 

eajacobson

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
196
Location
Bloomington, Minnesota
Insurance - it should be offered (and even encouraged), but not required. Everyone should be knowledgeable enough to decide the level of risk they want to assume.

PayPal - I'm not sure that F & F does not supply the address, nor does the Goods & Service supply it - it seems to be more how the individual sending the money has their account set up. I had fee bearing payments without addresses and (I think) F & F with addresses in the February CSUSA GB.

Also on PayPal, I think if we offer a choice, it might lead to issues of people choosing the Goods & Services route, but not include the estimated fee in their payment and vice versa. Again, from February, I had notes in the guidelines and in the spreadsheet to pick the shipping option they wanted and to confirm the insurance inclusion and amount. That was often just left at the default in the spreadsheet. Without an application to do the orders, it might be hard to enforce the choices in the spreadsheet (though I plan to put a few more changes for the next GB I run).

Ed
 

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,752
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
I participate in group buys (as an individual buyer) fairly often, and have used the F & F payment once or twice. There is a obvious savings advantage, but you do have to fund the money transfer from your account (in my case checking account), to avoid paying an additional fee to PayPal. The fee comes in if you fund by means of a credit card.
The mentioned downside of the coordinator NOT having the shipping addresses automatically provided via Ppal is something of significance, which adds on to all the other tasks associated with running a buy. That could at least be simplified by the 'Buy' procedures, so it does not become a big headache at shipping time. Overall I favor the F & F option, as an option, so that it could be done either way. It would be good to hear from those who have coordinated a buy, since without a willing coordinator, there would be no buy.
 

joefyffe

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Indianapolis (almost Zionsville) Indiana
I agree with Mr. Penguin :wink: 100% Insurance is cheap. The last group buy, I spent upward of $500. The extra insurance to cover this was 3 or 4 dollars. I figure a pkg with an insurance stamp on it MAY receive more tender handling! ???



My opinions...

A GB coordinator should always offer insurance. If a GB participant does not receive a package shipped by USPS - their maximum recovery is the $50 auto insurance that USPS includes with a flat rate shipment (if shipped using FRB).

If a GB participant declines/refuses insurance and then tries to file a paypal claim against the GB coordinator to get his money back - that is a dick move and that participant should be banned from ALL future group purchases - and possibly removed from IAP. Something like that is simply uncalled for and goes against the spirit of IAP.


on F&F transfers - I agree that for what we do, it really qualifies for F&F - though a regular transfer does give the GB participants an extra level of "comfort" (that they'll get their stuff, and that Paypal won't lock down their accounts). It is tremendously convenient to pay for shipping labels within paypal. That convenience is lost with the F&F feature. 3-4% (or so) can add up to quite a bit.


in 2013 I coordinated easily $20,000 in group buys and had zero issues with packages disappearing or with standard or F&F transfers. Let's hope it stays that way.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased. In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered. That is how eBay does it. Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender. Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.

If I were the group buy coordinator I'd require insurance.

If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail. If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But, I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
A more interesting question, Monty.

If you are ordering from another country and the order gets lost---who is "out".

I know for a fact that the Chinese sources will tell you they are
Velly solly, but the order is paid for in advance and you are SOL.

Are all participants in these group buys prepared to lose their money, in the event the shipment is lost?
Ed, Agreed. I am relatively certain that virtually ALL merchandise purchased out of country is FOB in the country of origin. A few seem to accept responsibility while the package is still in their country by making FOB the point of embarkation but most is FOB at the loading dock of their factory.
 

The Penguin

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,133
Location
Houston, TX
Insurance on Group buy....I don't see how it would be different on group buys than it is for normal purchased. In most cases the seller will be responsible until the package is delivered. That is how eBay does it. Most large shippers do not offer insurance for that reason, insurance is really to protect the sender. Personally I self insure unless the value is quite high then I buy insurance myself.

If I were the group buy coordinator I'd require insurance.

If the coordinator is sending invoices and getting payments for them don't use F & F because it will break your paper trail. If you are letting participants know what they owe by some other means and you have some other method of getting their shipping information - use it. But, I have never seen F & F come through with a shipping address and there is no where to enter one when you bring it up.
big difference between a retailor/customer sale and a group buy.

the group buy coordinator is not profiting from the sale and is only passing through costs to the participants.
 

PR_Princess

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
2,376
Location
Sturtevant WI, USA.
big difference between a retailor/customer sale and a group buy.

the group buy coordinator is not profiting from the sale and is only passing through costs to the participants.
In large part this is still true - but it is no longer an absolute.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f21/changes-affecting-csusa-group-buy-guidelines-119215/

That said, I believe that requiring insurance as part of the conditions of the buy (or a hold harmless waiver for the co-ordinator) is a good idea.

And IF paypal's rules allow F&F, I think that the coordinator might want to consider the number of participants he is having in the buy. If the number is small (10?), the extra work of hand typing out labels (F&F) might not be an issue. But if the number is larger, it can really be a bit of a job. In that case paypal's auto label feature might really nice to employ....Especially after spending a ton of hours un-boxing, sorting, and re packaging of hundreds or thousands of items.

FWIW
 
Last edited:

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
The question is not one of profit or profit motive. Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping. It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.
 

The Penguin

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,133
Location
Houston, TX
The question is not one of profit or profit motive. Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping. It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.
and the group buy coordinator should not be the one that loses if the package is lost AND the recipient refused the insurance.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
The question is not one of profit or profit motive. Or whether or not it is a business or individual doing the shipping. It's simply who is going to lose if the item paid for by PayPal or Credit Card does not get delivered.
and the group buy coordinator should not be the one that loses if the package is lost AND the recipient refused the insurance.
We don't disagree on that point. The operative question is whether or not the coordinator WILL lose. While I self insure in my business because it is obviously more profitable for me to do that I wouldn't recommend that for a coordinator. That is why I would make the insurance a part of the shipping cost - no option.
 

Timbo

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,188
Location
North Wales, Pennsylvania, USA.
I have received a few PMs from a couple of people asking what liability a person running a GB would have should a package get lost in the mail and the recipient had opted not to purchase insurance. It was suggested that if payment was through PP and the package was shipped not using PP, that PP could refund the money from account of the person running the GB, but if it was shipped using PP and the address was confirmed in PP, that PP would support the sender.

I have also received several PMs concerning requiring the use Friends & Family so one will not have to pay a PP fee for GBs. One member has researched this and was informed by PP that for our purpose, this would be a correct usage of F&F. The only drawback I see to this is that the mailing address of the recipient is not automatically sent to the GB leader. Would you like to see F&F be added as a requirement for payment for Group Buys?

Please post any comments you may have on these items.
I'm the member that originally researched the F&F payment option with Paypal. The website description, and my phone conversation with their customer support person confirmed that what we're doing with the group buys qualifies for the use of that option.

I think the person running the GB should decide if F&F or the regular option is to be used for the buy. It should be one the other, not both within the same buy as that would introduce too much chance of mistakes and confusion. I've run several buys and have not used the Paypal address label feature so that wont be an issue for me if its not available with F&F option. That said, I haven't run a buy with 50 folks either, I might wish I had use of the Paypal address label feature if I did.

The person running the buy should NOT be responsible for lost/damaged packages or shipments as long as he/she can confirm that the package was shipped via a tracking#. The insurance option should always be offered, if someone chooses not to take it that's on them.
 

zig613

Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
577
Location
Canada
Something to consider... I believe if you pay as a "Family or Friend" the person participating in the group buy is not covered by PayPal's "Purchase Protection". I don't mind paying the PayPal fees to the organizer of the group buy to ensure I have coverage... just like buying insurance on package deliveries.

Wade
 

Quality Pen

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
1,399
Location
Lumberton, Texas
I asked Paypal over the phone as well about the payment option of friends and family. They said it was OK and not circumventing fees.

Of course, this was just a person on the phone and not necessarily a manager or perhaps an expert on the matter.

I explained in no uncertain terms what I was doing and they said friends and family is fine.

For what it's worth, I would not be opposed to requiring insurance. The way I see it, if you spend 300 dollars then you're going to be saving quite a bit of money, so "throwing away" some money on insurance doesn't come close to eating your savings.
 

Timbo

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,188
Location
North Wales, Pennsylvania, USA.
At least two of us have talked to Paypal customer service directly and got the same answer. At this point there does not seem to be any question that we would NOT be breaking any Paypal rules if we use the Friends & Family option for our group buy purchases. I think we can put that one to bed.

However, there still seems to be some questions about using the shipping label feature, as well as buyer/seller protections....maybe others. Maybe Mannie could compile a list of those questions, then we execute a plan to get the answers. I can't imagine that there would be more than five questions that really need answers. My thoughts would be first, to have someone address the specific questions we have with PayPal. Then, verify what we can by executing a transaction using the F&F option, and having the buyer and seller report their findings. Might seem like overkill but that would end the uncertainty. I'm willing to be the test buyer (money sender), someone familiar with using the Paypal labeling should be the seller. Obviously, I would expect the transaction to be reversed after the test.

Mannie should be the one to have final say if this is worthwhile, and to drive it if so.
 

Timbo

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,188
Location
North Wales, Pennsylvania, USA.
why pick that scab with Paypal?

they may decide to get rid of that option all together.
There's no scabs to be picked as far as I can see. Legally using the F&F option is no longer a question. There's no need to research that any longer. It would be nice to confirmed with certainty what other options/feature we might lose if we use F&F vs. the other option that requires a fee.

Edit: Paypal's net revenue in 2014 was 1.95 billion U.S. dollars. I really don't think what we do will have any real impact on their business decisions.
 
Last edited:

zig613

Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
577
Location
Canada
On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.

The following was extracted from the PayPal (Canada) website...

Protected Purchases

Eligible items must be tangible goods. You must pay for it using your PayPal account, and your account must be in good standing. You must also pay for the item with one payment.

Items Not Covered


The following items are not covered:
  • Intangible items like digital goods or services
  • Real estate
  • Motorized vehicles (of any kind)
  • Custom-made items
  • Travel tickets
  • Industrial machinery (for manufacturing)
  • Cash, gift cards, or Prepaid cards
  • Items that violate our policies or eBay's policies
  • Items bought in person,
  • Money transfers to friends or family
Wade
 

duncsuss

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
1,353
Location
Wilmington, MA
On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
Wade, the question that I'd like answered definitively is who pays when PayPal "Buyer Protection" returns funds to the purchaser?

If it's the Group Buy organizer, and not PayPal's insurance company, don't expect a stampede of folks volunteering to organize them in future.
 

The Penguin

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,133
Location
Houston, TX
On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
Wade, the question that I'd like answered definitively is who pays when PayPal "Buyer Protection" returns funds to the purchaser?

If it's the Group Buy organizer, and not PayPal's insurance company, don't expect a stampede of folks volunteering to organize them in future.
bingo.
 

zig613

Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
577
Location
Canada
On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
Wade, the question that I'd like answered definitively is who pays when PayPal "Buyer Protection" returns funds to the purchaser?

If it's the Group Buy organizer, and not PayPal's insurance company, don't expect a stampede of folks volunteering to organize them in future.
Duncan,

The IAP world to date has been pretty safe. As far as I know no one has been burned by a group buy. The "Buyer Protection" provides a level of comfort (IMHO) that my funds transferred to someone for a particular purchase will follow through with the transaction.

This isn't meant to be a slight to the organizers of a group buy. They do a great job and they should be commended for their work. I have participated in a couple myself. However, like any other Internet purchase I make I feel much more comfortable knowing that I have the "Buyer Protection" in place. The same rationale could be made to those organizing the group buy requesting insurance on the shippment.

Wade
 
Last edited:

KenV

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
4,721
Location
Juneau, Alaska.
Have had a couple of bad transactions over the years and used what is now the Buyer Protection Plan.

The transaction was reversed and the "seller" was debited the amount.


Pay Pal runs/facilitates the process -- and is Judge, Jury, and handler of the funds.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
If you pay for merchandise you have to either enter a shipping address or specifically say you don't want one. That feature is not available in family and friends. Without that It is highly unlikely that the coordinator will be able to use the automatic label feature and will likely have to enter the shipping address to print the label. One thing that might be possible, I've never looked - you might be able to use third party shipping insurance which is uaually a fair amount cheaper than postal insurance.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
On their website PayPal is clear what is covered under their "Buyer Protection" and "Family and Friend" transactions are not covered.
Wade, the question that I'd like answered definitively is who pays when PayPal "Buyer Protection" returns funds to the purchaser?

If it's the Group Buy organizer, and not PayPal's insurance company, don't expect a stampede of folks volunteering to organize them in future.
It is the person who received the money who is ultimately responsible. Only if that person can't be charged back to does PayPal "eat" the cost. Which in my opinion is why insurance should be required on all purchases over $50.00 (or $100 if UPS is used.) when USPS is the carrier.
 

magier412

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
219
Location
Seattle, WA
I think that it's fairly clear that any "buyer protection" would be debited to the group buy coordinator's account - not to PayPal (because, hello...why would they take a loss? they are just functioning as the merchant charge back in lieu of an actual cc company). This would work similarly if you'd deny a charge made to PayPal itself with your VISA card, for example, although I suspect that you'd have all sorts of problems with PayPal after something like that, LOL.

I agree with Duncan, frankly. Part of what we are doing here in this community is trying to help one another in our crazy obsession with turning - uhm - I mean quite respectable hobby.

Although this is a virtual meeting space, there are friendships formed (some IRL) and there is a certain amount of respect and trust that goes along with that. If you don't trust those folks that you are going into business with, then don't do business. Simple enough.

It'd be a shame to make this nice activity go away due to the oppressive feeling of people worrying about things that haven't ever happened here to begin with. If it did happen, I'm sure that there would be significant repercussions to that individual, but honestly, I wouldn't think that any of the folks here are that dishonest. They wouldn't be here, and they wouldn't still be part of this community.

Besides...we know where you live. Bwahahahahaha!

And I agree with Penguin that anyone that doesn't take responsibility for their own package (insured or not) and then turns around and tries to make it someone else's fault just probably doesn't belong here and should be sent to the naughty corner and not let out any time soon.

As far as making labels on USPS goes - it's not that hard to cut and paste from email or whatever list/spreadsheet that's been compiled. It can be a bit more of a pain, but hey...anything is fun if you decide it is...just sayin'

Good days and great days...don't have bad days anymore (and that's by choice ;)

Let's not cancel the party because we might not like the clown...

Just my two cents.
 
Last edited:

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
I think that it's fairly clear that any "buyer protection" would be debited to the group buy coordinator's account - not to PayPal (because, hello...why would they take a loss? they are just functioning as the merchant charge back in lieu of an actual cc company). This would work similarly if you'd deny a charge made to PayPal itself with your VISA card, for example, although I suspect that you'd have all sorts of problems with PayPal after something like that, LOL.

I agree with Duncan, frankly. Part of what we are doing here in this community is trying to help one another in our crazy obsession with turning - uhm - I mean quite respectable hobby.

Although this is a virtual meeting space, there are friendships formed (some IRL) and there is a certain amount of respect and trust that goes along with that. If you don't trust those folks that you are going into business with, then don't do business. Simple enough.

It'd be a shame to make this nice activity go away due to the oppressive feeling of people worrying about things that haven't ever happened here to begin with. If it did happen, I'm sure that there would be significant repercussions to that individual, but honestly, I wouldn't think that any of the folks here are that dishonest. They wouldn't be here, and they wouldn't still be part of this community.

Besides...we know where you live. Bwahahahahaha!

And I agree with Penguin that anyone that doesn't take responsibility for their own package (insured or not) and then turns around and tries to make it someone else's fault just probably doesn't belong here and should be sent to the naughty corner and not let out any time soon.

As far as making labels on USPS goes - it's not that hard to cut and paste from email or whatever list/spreadsheet that's been compiled. It can be a bit more of a pain, but hey...anything is fun if you decide it is...just sayin'

Good days and great days...don't have bad days anymore (and that's by choice ;)

Let's not cancel the party because we might not like the clown...

Just my two cents.
Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund. Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not. It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.

Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss in the rare case where the seller decides to obscond with the money - that isn't likely to happen, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, floods, accidents and deaths can and do happen - Buyer protection works in those cases too. Again it has nothing to do with trust. And, it is free.

Postage labels - What good reason is there to ask the group coordinator to do more work than he/she is already undertaking. If anyone thinks that paying a paypal fee negates their savings, they are free to not join the buy.
 

Monty

Group Buy Coordinator
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
7,682
Location
Pearland, Texas, USA.
We do know that F&F does not give the senders address for mailing labels in PP.
Now, let me throw this out. If money is sent via F&F, doesn't that imply that the sender is sending money with no expectation of anything in return? If this is the case, than there would be no recourse through PP and PP would have no reason to take money from the recipient.

Now let me ask this about USPS insurance. What kind of documentation would one have to supply in order to file for loss of the shipment?
 

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
12,255
Location
NJ, USA.
I would like to hear what Jeff has to say in this matter. He did not use Paypal in the Bash celebration. How did he handle the labels and insurance???
 

magier412

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
219
Location
Seattle, WA
Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund. Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not. It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.

Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss in the rare case where the seller decides to obscond with the money - that isn't likely to happen, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, floods, accidents and deaths can and do happen - Buyer protection works in those cases too. Again it has nothing to do with trust. And, it is free.

Postage labels - What good reason is there to ask the group coordinator to do more work than he/she is already undertaking. If anyone thinks that paying a paypal fee negates their savings, they are free to not join the buy.
The problem that I have with the "Buyer Protection" is that any CLAIM comes directly out of the SELLERS pocket.

It's not insurance at all, it's just a merchant charge back.

And that is what Penguin - and others (me included) - was getting at. I don't give a rip about a few dollars in USPS insurance, nor a service fee for PayPal, but I DO care about the likelihood that hurricanes, fires, floods and accidents might have one of our members holding the bag for a $500 package(s) that was damaged through no fault of their own.

If people insist on the use of "Buyer Protection" (note it's not called "Seller Protection"), I suspect it will be the end of group buys.

And I wouldn't blame the coordinators/sellers one damn bit.

Just sayin'
 
Last edited:

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
We do know that F&F does not give the senders address for mailing labels in PP.
Now, let me throw this out. If money is sent via F&F, doesn't that imply that the sender is sending money with no expectation of anything in return? If this is the case, than there would be no recourse through PP and PP would have no reason to take money from the recipient.

Now let me ask this about USPS insurance. What kind of documentation would one have to supply in order to file for loss of the shipment?
Generally speaking an invoice is going to be required. The post office will already have the declared value and the information that it wasn't delivered in their system.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Well the coordinator is entitled to be protected as well as the buyer -- and what others think not-with-standing insurance is to protect the sender against loss. If a package is lost or damaged the seller (group buy coordinator) is responsible to make it good by replacement or refund. Period. And, contrary to what some people seem to believe, not everyone participating in a group buy would be willing to eat a $500.00 loss whether they bought insurance or not. It isn't a matter of trust - losses can occur through no fault of the coordinator.

Buyer protection is to protect the buyer against loss in the rare case where the seller decides to obscond with the money - that isn't likely to happen, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, floods, accidents and deaths can and do happen - Buyer protection works in those cases too. Again it has nothing to do with trust. And, it is free.

Postage labels - What good reason is there to ask the group coordinator to do more work than he/she is already undertaking. If anyone thinks that paying a paypal fee negates their savings, they are free to not join the buy.
The problem that I have with the "Buyer Protection" is that any CLAIM comes directly out of the SELLERS pocket.

It's not insurance at all, it's just a merchant charge back.

And that is what Penguin - and others (me included) - was getting at. I don't give a rip about a few dollars in USPS insurance, nor a service fee for PayPal, but I DO care about the likelihood that hurricanes, fires, floods and accidents might have one of our members holding the bag for a $500 package(s) that was damaged through no fault of their own.

If people insist on the use of "Buyer Protection" (note it's not called "Seller Protection"), I suspect it will be the end of group buys.

And I wouldn't blame the coordinators/sellers one damn bit.

Just sayin'
Truth is PayPal does have something called Seller Protection. That's beside the point. Buyer protection simply gives the buyer the same protection they would have if they bought with a credit card. It is not an option, if you pay for goods and services (with exceptions) you have it. If you pay with friends and family you don't have it.
 

Smitty37

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
12,823
Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Buyer Protection at PayPal

I think there is some misunderstanding about this feature. It is nothing strange.

There are two ways to pay using PayPal. Merchandise payment and F & F, both of them offer the same options for the source of funds to make the payment with. A Payer can have one or more credit cards set up. They can have PayPal access their bank account and they can use their PayPal balance.

Buyer Protection applies only if the payer uses their PayPal balance as the source of funds and only if used in payment for merchandise. It gives the payer only the same recourse using their PayPal Balance that they have if they use a credit card as the source of funds. Nothing more.

If the payer uses a credit card their recourse is via the credit card bank rather than PayPal but they do have it.

The charge back always goes first to the Payees funds but in some cases if the payees funds don't cover an allowed charge back the credit card bank must bear the loss. PayPal buyer protection seems to work the same way. If they can they will charge back to the Payee, if for some reason they can't do that they will still make good the charge back.

Whether or not the Payer initiates a dispute is entirely up to them, because they can doesn't mean they have to. I've had a couple started against me because of slow delivery to Canada then dropped when the package arrived - they were initiated only to protect the buyer in case of loss in the mail.

You can't dispute a F & F transfer from PayPal under normal circumstances because you are saying you're not paying for anything.

The reason I would not use F & F for Group Buys is because it does not connect to the mailing label if the coordinator is going to use USPS and I'm not sure maybe FedEx or UPS as well. If you have 50 participants this can mean a ton of extra work for the coordinator.
 
Last edited:

eajacobson

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
196
Location
Bloomington, Minnesota
Regarding the address printing option in PP - for USPS shipping, it only works for flat rate or priority options. Regional A boxes are a great option for size vs cost, but only if you get the postage through USPS - it isn't a PP option. Maybe you can print a pure label from PP, but you'll still have to enter the data in USPS to get the postage covered.

Ed
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

eajacobson

Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
196
Location
Bloomington, Minnesota
Regarding "buyer protection" and shipping insurance - from a coordinators perspective, if someone insists on buyer protection, I'd want to insist on shipping insurance. The buyers have to trust the coordinators, otherwise the coordinators aren't going to be there. The same is true that the coordinators have to trust the buyers. Now that we know that F&F is a legal option in PP, I would tend to encourage it (as it seems most buyers want it). That being said, I would go with what I said above - if F&F is openly available (and encouraged, maybe), and a buyer insists they want to use G&S in PP (for the buyer protection), I would insist that they opt for insurance (and possibly for the non-discounted goods price, if I'll be expected to provide the goods again).

Let's just trust that we (both buyers and coordinators) are there to try our best to help out each other.

Ed
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom