RoxnDox
Member
In this community, is it used for a custom order sort of thing (for those who sell pens), or a gift for a specific person? I see the term all over the forum and just wanted to be sure of it. One of my quirks. 
What do you folks mean by “bespoke”?
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jttheclockman
Member
RoxnDox
Member
Bespoke means made to order. It causes some consternation on this forum for some reason. It's an every day word here in the uk where you may order a bespoke piece of furniture or bespoke tailoring. Also it implies quality. Google it and you'll see.
I don't use it to describe my own pens but it is a much better option than "kitless" which is a made up word used solely by pen makers on forums like this and never used any where else nor in any other context. For that reason I never use it as customers have absolutely no clue what it means. (My spell checker underlines it in red as it isn't recognised as a real word).
Cheers
Ash
I don't use it to describe my own pens but it is a much better option than "kitless" which is a made up word used solely by pen makers on forums like this and never used any where else nor in any other context. For that reason I never use it as customers have absolutely no clue what it means. (My spell checker underlines it in red as it isn't recognised as a real word).
Cheers
Ash
hallelujahal
Member
Totally agree Ash - I think 'Bespoke' is a much better term than 'kitless' - I don't think I could bring myself to say the word out loud
duncsuss
Member
I'd never thought my use of the word "bespoke" for the pens I made to customer specifications could cause any distress until folks here posted about it.
I'm another Brit who grew up knowing that you can buy a suit "off the peg" in a shop or buy it made-to-measure - called "bespoke". Technically it has nothing to do with the materials, but there's little point paying somebody to tailor a suit using poor quality cloth.
I'm another Brit who grew up knowing that you can buy a suit "off the peg" in a shop or buy it made-to-measure - called "bespoke". Technically it has nothing to do with the materials, but there's little point paying somebody to tailor a suit using poor quality cloth.
RoxnDox
Member
Well, I certainly don't want to reopen Pandora's Box. I'm extremely unlikely ever to use the term myself, so…
jttheclockman
Member
It maybe a term used overseas but again we go down this rabbit hole and it is a term for what does not register because 90% of this site I bet did not grow up with the word. Just like so many words today and one in particular "WOKE" which is annoying, are not spoken by many. Just like Woke people do not know what bespoken means. Does not mean you are more sophisticated than others but just a word you use. I looked back at some older threads and see this was a discussion back in 2009 also. My question to all you proper speaking folks when you go into a pen store and see the top brand pens such as Mont Blanc, Lamy, Waterman, and so many other well known brands do you say I would like to see some bespoke pens please. No they are just pens weather it is a fountain pen or a rollerball or ballpoint pen that is how you ask for them. On this site it started many years ago when people started making pens without using pen tubes and then they started making their own components and to designate the difference from what we as probably 98% of members were doing using kits . There pens do not use kits. Do we call them bespoke or kitless? No we do not. But this is a pen making forum and to designate we chose kitless which works very well here in this context. I too will never use that term. Why not use handmade. That is a universal word that everyone understands. What not too "WOKE for you all??
NGLJ
Member
As an ex-Brit I am familiar with the word "bespoke". Strictly speaking every pen that we make could be described as somewhat bespoke because it is unique, even if only to ourselves. In this case we are the "customer" since we decided what it would be like. Unless you are into "production line" pen creation, which I would suspect is not true for the vast majority of pen makers, we are in a "bespoke" activity. The same can be said for pretty much all woodworking creations. Having said all that, I am not one to get agitated about any particular word, especially if it is a word that I don't understand because it comes from a particular background or geographic location. The only thing that matters is that we all be understood. If we aren't then all that is needed is an explanation. Having now lived in Canada for over 40 yrs I describe myself as quadra-lingual, English, Canadian, some American, and Yorkshire, which is where I am from . They are all different and "vive la differénce". Oops did some French creep in there.
. They are all different and "vive la differénce". Oops did some French creep in there.It maybe a term used overseas but again we go down this rabbit hole and it is a term for what does not register because 90% of this site I bet did not grow up with the word. Just like so many words today and one in particular "WOKE" which is annoying, are not spoken by many. Just like Woke people do not know what bespoken means. Does not mean you are more sophisticated than others but just a word you use. I looked back at some older threads and see this was a discussion back in 2009 also. My question to all you proper speaking folks when you go into a pen store and see the top brand pens such as Mont Blanc, Lamy, Waterman, and so many other well known brands do you say I would like to see some bespoke pens please. No they are just pens whether it is a fountain pen or a rollerball or ballpoint pen that is how you ask for them. On this site it started many years ago when people started making pens without using pen tubes and then they started making their own components and to designate the difference from what we as probably 98% of members were doing using kits . There pens do not use kits. Do we call them bespoke or kitless? No we do not. But this is a pen making forum and to designate we chose kitless which works very well here in this context. I too will never use that term. Why not use handmade. That is a universal word that everyone understands. What not too "WOKE for you all??
Montblanc don't make made-to-order pens, but if they did then they would call them bespoke, just like they do with their made-to-order nibs.
As the linked thread points out, it (as I understand it) comes from London tailors, back with a bolt of cloth would be set aside for a specific customer - ala "spoken for" ergo 'bespoke'. It evolved over time to indicate a certain status and cachet. A London bespoke suit indicated a tailored piece designed specifically for you from some of the best that London has to offer.
If you've ever seen the non-sucky Kingsman movie or the phenomenal movie The Outfit they work within that concept.
(and of course, like any rational Yank, I'll defer to the direct knowledge of any and all Atlantic Islanders here)
Valleyboy's screenshot feels like a closer example in 'bespoke' for nibs - it's that extra care to tailor the end result personally to the buyer.
Though I do cavil over the use of 'computer based' detection and 'we'll pick out one from our stash)
Other examples of what might be considered closer to bespoke in terms of customization part of it would be that recent thread where someone was making a specific pen-to-order for someone with arthritis. Or if your blank has a text label you align it so that it's facing the "proper" direction for a right or a left handed user. But even those examples might leave out the quality aspect associated with the term.
In short and in my opinion- the use of bespoke seems more like an easy way to borrow the status without actually living up to the promise, essentially cheapening the word. But it's good marketing speak for sure.
jttheclockman
Member
Then why can't a kit pen be a Bespoken pen. Lets all call our pens bespoken pens. Why not call ourselves bespoken people. We are all custom made. We are all one of a kind. We make custom blanks. It just something that I will never get over so call it what you want.
RoxnDox
Member
To avoid a long dive down this particular rabbit hole, can Admins close the thread? I'd really rather not be the instigator of another long and potentially pointless discussion about whether the horse is dead?
wolf creek knives
Member
Good call. I think more than anything this is a cultural thing. As long as this site invites anyone from any country to join we should be accepting of how things are referred to by others. My opinion, and what I use is "custom". My suits are "tailored" and always will be, but that's what the maker calls them, not me, I just call it a suit.
This is really surprising to me...that the word "Bespoke" would cause any consternation of any kind. It is a pretty well understood term, as far as I know, in the US as well. It has a relatively simple definition:
> Something custom made, usually for a particular person.
Why is this an issue?
> Something custom made, usually for a particular person.
Why is this an issue?
Because bespoke usually refers to something not just custom, but customized for a particular individual.
jttheclockman
Member
Reread what you wrote and tell me what we do with kits is not made for specific people. The thing that gets me in a tizzy over this is because all these people making so called kitless pens think their pens are bespoken only because they do not like the word kitless and has a bad meaning.. Just because you take some acrylic and put threads on it what makes that different than me taking a acrylic blank and doing segment work or casting a watch part blank?? How is that different?? It does not have a name on the pen. I am making a specific pen for a friend right now and one for my sister and yes they use kits. Can I call that a bespoke pen. A pen spoken for an individual is what constitutes a bespoken pen is what you are saying. The point brought up about Mont Blanc calling their nibs bespoken nibs. There is no name assigned to them. They are for sale like my kit pens.
I know this is a silly debate. I get it. People call anything what they want but it keeps coming up over and over here. We have members from around the world but I have never read any other word than bespoken pen for pens used here. Fountain pen, ballpoint pen, rollerball pen, all different types of PENS not BESPOKEN PENS. Maybe we should have a new forum called Bespoken Pens. Maybe I am seeing this in a whole different light because of the way we keep adding words to the English language that are just self centered to certain people. I am out of this. I said enough and am sure probably adding to my long list of people who are pressing the ignore button. Have at it. I will continue to show my kit pens and list the kit used and describe my blanks the way I always have. I have bespoken enough.
sorcerertd
Member
^This. Bespoke = spoken into existence.
Technically, bespoke would be an item made to a customer's specifications. I want a ___, made in colors ___, shaped like ___, with... Well, you get the idea.
In practical application, call it what you want. It won't bother me. There's plenty of different words in different parts of our little world.
Reread what you wrote and tell me what we do with kits is not made for specific people. The thing that gets me in a tizzy over this is because all these people making so called kitless pens think their pens are bespoken only because they do not like the word kitless and has a bad meaning.. Just because you take some acrylic and put threads on it what makes that different than me taking a acrylic blank and doing segment work or casting a watch part blank?? How is that different?? It does not have a name on the pen. I am making a specific pen for a friend right now and one for my sister and yes they use kits. Can I call that a bespoke pen. A pen spoken for an individual is what constitutes a bespoken pen is what you are saying. The point brought up about Mont Blanc calling their nibs bespoken nibs. There is no name assigned to them. They are for sale like my kit pens.
I know this is a silly debate. I get it. People call anything what they want but it keeps coming up over and over here. We have members from around the world but I have never read any other word than bespoken pen for pens used here. Fountain pen, ballpoint pen, rollerball pen, all different types of PENS not BESPOKEN PENS. Maybe we should have a new forum called Bespoken Pens. Maybe I am seeing this in a whole different light because of the way we keep adding words to the English language that are just self centered to certain people. I am out of this. I said enough and am sure probably adding to my long list of people who are pressing the ignore button. Have at it. I will continue to show my kit pens and list the kit used and describe my blanks the way I always have. I have bespoken enough.
I never said anything about kitted pens not being able to be bespoke.
I simply offered the definition of the word... Its a word. We shouldn't be banning words because someone dislikes the word...
You seem to understand what bespoke means. Good. Lets not ban it because someone else doesn't. Lets instead, educate them, so the word can be used properly and to its fullest extent.
IMO, the word is often used wrong here. Ok. Lets help people understand what the word really DOES mean. Then it can be used correctly, to refer to ANY pen (not just the so-called "kitless") that is custom tailored to someone (i.e. a customer's) explicit requests. FWIW, there are some people who make "kitless" pens that are indeed bespoke, as in, they were made to order for specific customers. Made without a hardware kit (kitless), for a particular person's specification (bespoke). A pen can literally be BOTH kitless and bespoke, and these terms can both be valid and correct at the same time, under certain circumstances. Lets not ban kitless either.
jttheclockman
Member
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leehljp
Member Liaison
"Bespoke" is one of those words that while in the "English language" it does not appear to be as universal as some may think. "Handkerchief", "napkin", "tinkle" are all "English" words but they certainly do not have the same meaning from country to country, - as the meanings change drastically in different some English speaking countries. French has words that are used in many countries but the same word has totally different meanings from one culture to another. Japan has adopted a number of foreign words and brought them into their language, only to change the nuance or the meaning entirely. What may be used commonly in England doesn't meant that it is common in other English speaking countries.
Even the word "million" used to have a different meaning in England/British Empire than in the rest of the world. Only in the last 25-30 years has the meaning become universal at 1,000,000.
While some may not like word "kitless" (and that is OK), there seems to be a mis-understanding of its origins. While a few may see it as a description of being purely as "bespoke" or "custom made", bespoke was not a word commonly used in this country as has been assumed. "Custom made" and "commissioned" are the two words more commonly used in this country and among most pen makers for what a few call "bespoke". Millions of pens have been made by people on this forum and people not on a forum - all from Kits. So in this culture, pens made from "kits" began to give way (by many talented individuals) to pens NOT made from kits. Since "bespoke" was not a commonly used word in this culture, it is not uncommon to make up another word to describe the new rendition.
I worked in the automobile field early in my life after college and learned that the words that mechanics used universally - were totally different from the words used by engineers for the same work or part.
Nothing wrong with the word "kitless" in describing a type of origin, and it is not to be looked down on. Even the English language couldn't change the military jargon "kernel" into being spoken with the phonetics of "colonel".
Even the word "million" used to have a different meaning in England/British Empire than in the rest of the world. Only in the last 25-30 years has the meaning become universal at 1,000,000.
While some may not like word "kitless" (and that is OK), there seems to be a mis-understanding of its origins. While a few may see it as a description of being purely as "bespoke" or "custom made", bespoke was not a word commonly used in this country as has been assumed. "Custom made" and "commissioned" are the two words more commonly used in this country and among most pen makers for what a few call "bespoke". Millions of pens have been made by people on this forum and people not on a forum - all from Kits. So in this culture, pens made from "kits" began to give way (by many talented individuals) to pens NOT made from kits. Since "bespoke" was not a commonly used word in this culture, it is not uncommon to make up another word to describe the new rendition.
I worked in the automobile field early in my life after college and learned that the words that mechanics used universally - were totally different from the words used by engineers for the same work or part.
Nothing wrong with the word "kitless" in describing a type of origin, and it is not to be looked down on. Even the English language couldn't change the military jargon "kernel" into being spoken with the phonetics of "colonel".
jttheclockman
Member
Hank was it not you who coined the phrase "KITLESS" many years ago. ?? I can remember reading a thread as to where the term started but now can not remember who coined that phrase. May require a search.
Amazing what you find when doing searches and opinions within those threads. Here is an interesting read on topic. Have fun.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/new-forum-for-kitless.171365/
Maybe it was @Texatdurango who coined the phrase because here is a very interesting thread that takes us back to the times where we discussed the meanings of kitless and what constitutes its use. Our own Mike Broberg initiated this discussion. I like looking back at history here. Take some time and read this thread.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/...n-considered-to-be-kitless.50955/#post-898767
Amazing what you find when doing searches and opinions within those threads. Here is an interesting read on topic. Have fun.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/new-forum-for-kitless.171365/
Maybe it was @Texatdurango who coined the phrase because here is a very interesting thread that takes us back to the times where we discussed the meanings of kitless and what constitutes its use. Our own Mike Broberg initiated this discussion. I like looking back at history here. Take some time and read this thread.
https://www.penturners.org/threads/...n-considered-to-be-kitless.50955/#post-898767
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leehljp
Member Liaison
John T.: Hank was it not you who coined the phrase "KITLESS" many years ago. ??
'Twasn't me,
I hadn't advanced that far back then.
At some point around 2007 or '08? (I think), the forum was moved to new software and some items seem to have disappeared. @Texatdurango could have been the one. I did the first TBC for pens on this forum but didn't call it that. @Texatdurango is the one to called it TBC, IIRC.
'Twasn't me,
I hadn't advanced that far back then. At some point around 2007 or '08? (I think), the forum was moved to new software and some items seem to have disappeared. @Texatdurango could have been the one. I did the first TBC for pens on this forum but didn't call it that. @Texatdurango is the one to called it TBC, IIRC.
WriteON
Member
Don't ya hate it. I do.It maybe a term used overseas but again we go down this rabbit hole and it is a term for what does not register because 90% of this site I bet did not grow up with the word. Just like so many words today and one in particular "WOKE" which is annoying, are not spoken by many. Just like Woke people do not know what bespoken means. Does not mean you are more sophisticated than others but just a word you use. I looked back at some older threads and see this was a discussion back in 2009 also. My question to all you proper speaking folks when you go into a pen store and see the top brand pens such as Mont Blanc, Lamy, Waterman, and so many other well known brands do you say I would like to see some bespoke pens please. No they are just pens weather it is a fountain pen or a rollerball or ballpoint pen that is how you ask for them. On this site it started many years ago when people started making pens without using pen tubes and then they started making their own components and to designate the difference from what we as probably 98% of members were doing using kits . There pens do not use kits. Do we call them bespoke or kitless? No we do not. But this is a pen making forum and to designate we chose kitless which works very well here in this context. I too will never use that term. Why not use handmade. That is a universal word that everyone understands. What not too "WOKE for you all??
penicillin
Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2019
- Messages
- 1,036
This post is entirely my personal opinion, nothing more. Got it?
I think "bespoke" recently caught the public's attention as a fad word that has replaced "custom" in some circles. "Bespoke" carries a cachet and sense of luxury that "custom" lacks, possibly because of its non-American English "roots". To me, using "bespoke" over "custom" is an affectation to impress others. Since this fad use of "bespoke" appeared in the US a few years ago, I believe that any subtle differences in the meanings between "bespoke" and "custom" has been lost.
I think "bespoke" recently caught the public's attention as a fad word that has replaced "custom" in some circles. "Bespoke" carries a cachet and sense of luxury that "custom" lacks, possibly because of its non-American English "roots". To me, using "bespoke" over "custom" is an affectation to impress others. Since this fad use of "bespoke" appeared in the US a few years ago, I believe that any subtle differences in the meanings between "bespoke" and "custom" has been lost.
leehljp
Member Liaison
I have trouble distinguishing between the meaning of "bespoke" and "commissioned"- as commissioned is a request for a particular design or type by the buyer - which is what bespoke is.
Well, I was out and about looking at convection ovens/range|stove tops, as mine is pretty much had it. Thought it was interesting when I came across a whole entire range of Samsung appliances across the board, all slathered with the word "bespoke"...
www.samsung.com
Kinda got a kick out of that, given this thread. Its certainly become a fairly common word these days, as far as i know, for custom tailored, customized, purpose-made, specialized for the use case or environment type things.
I've known about the word for quite some time... Many years? When I first came here, I thought it had a different meaning, as I was confused by a couple threads on "bespoke" pens. I think the issue here though, is simply that sometimes (not always), the word is just misused. That is something that can be remedied, if we tried. Bespoke isn't necessarily kitless, but that is sometimes how it is used, to refer to a kitless pen (even if it wasn't commissioned by someone with specific requests in mind). I DO honestly think that is just a mistaken use of the word, probably because the user doesn't necessarily know what the word means... A gentle nudge in the right direction as far as usage could go a long way to correcting its use, allowing it to be used properly (even in non-kitless cases where its an entirely appropriate word.)
Bespoke Home Appliances | Custom Design Appliances | Samsung US
Learn more about Samsung washers, dryers, & other laundry appliances. Discover stackable washer & dryer sets, front & top load machines, smart features & more.
www.samsung.com
Kinda got a kick out of that, given this thread.
Its certainly become a fairly common word these days, as far as i know, for custom tailored, customized, purpose-made, specialized for the use case or environment type things.I've known about the word for quite some time... Many years? When I first came here, I thought it had a different meaning, as I was confused by a couple threads on "bespoke" pens. I think the issue here though, is simply that sometimes (not always), the word is just misused. That is something that can be remedied, if we tried. Bespoke isn't necessarily kitless, but that is sometimes how it is used, to refer to a kitless pen (even if it wasn't commissioned by someone with specific requests in mind). I DO honestly think that is just a mistaken use of the word, probably because the user doesn't necessarily know what the word means... A gentle nudge in the right direction as far as usage could go a long way to correcting its use, allowing it to be used properly (even in non-kitless cases where its an entirely appropriate word.)
jttheclockman
Member
May I ask you why you are pushing so hard on changing vernacular here on a pen making site. I don't get it. I encourage you to whole hardly read the last link I posted and see what our own Jeff Brown had to say about the word not that long ago. Please enough already. Let it go. If it causes others to leave for something as silly then so be it.Well, I was out and about looking at convection ovens/range|stove tops, as mine is pretty much had it. Thought it was interesting when I came across a whole entire range of Samsung appliances across the board, all slathered with the word "bespoke"...
Bespoke Home Appliances | Custom Design Appliances | Samsung US
Learn more about Samsung washers, dryers, & other laundry appliances. Discover stackable washer & dryer sets, front & top load machines, smart features & more.
Kinda got a kick out of that, given this thread.
I've known about the word for quite some time... Many years? When I first came here, I thought it had a different meaning, as I was confused by a couple threads on "bespoke" pens. I think the issue here though, is simply that sometimes (not always), the word is just misused. That is something that can be remedied, if we tried. Bespoke isn't necessarily kitless, but that is sometimes how it is used, to refer to a kitless pen (even if it wasn't commissioned by someone with specific requests in mind). I DO honestly think that is just a mistaken use of the word, probably because the user doesn't necessarily know what the word means... A gentle nudge in the right direction as far as usage could go a long way to correcting its use, allowing it to be used properly (even in non-kitless cases where its an entirely appropriate word.)
https://www.penturners.org/threads/new-forum-for-kitless.171365/
dogcatcher
Member
The people in my world ha. ve no use fir "bespoke". They understand "custom" and "commission" or "handmade".
I can't imagine many of my past customers really caring about the words to replace "I want".
I can't imagine many of my past customers really caring about the words to replace "I want".
John, as far as I could tell, the other thread was about what to name a forum. A forum that was intended to be about pens made without standardized hardware kits. From what I gathered, people didn't want that FORUM to be named "bespoke"...which, I actually entirely agree with. Kitless is a word that makes complete sense to me. I thought that would have been apparent from my earlier post (#19).
I didn't really get, that people hate the word, period... Until a particular point in the thread. In fact, as far as I could tell, it was you...again...who made a big monstrous issue out of...such a little thing:
Please Please Please do not use the word Bespoke in any title. That is one of the most ridiculous names for pen making. I would have to leave this site if that happens. I cringe every time I read that name.
This isn't the first time I've seen this kind of thing, coming from you. You threw in a bunch of emotes, but, I think the sentiment you voiced was still rather real (based on your reaction in this thread). YOU, PERSONALLY, really seem to hate this word, and tend to rial things up if its brought up. That bugs me. Sorry, but there it is. If you are really going to leave an entire internet forum, over a word, that is something you should reflect on yourself. Because otherwise, you are putting a lot of burden on other people here, to accommodate YOU, over a particular word... That ain't fair. Its a perfectly fine word, and when used properly it has a very distinct and clear meaning.
Based on that other thread, I don't think people want anyone calling "kitless" pens "bespoke" pens, just because they are kitless. That, in fact, is what I was talking about earlier...when I first got here, I DID encounter some threads where people used "Bespoke" to describe what, as far as I can tell these days, were in fact "kitless" pens. In that respect, if that is the actual issue, people calling kitless pens bespoke, when they aren't actually tailor made for a particular customer, then I fully agree. If someone actually DOES make bespoke pens, custom made to a particular clients specifications, then by all means, they should certainly be allowed to use the word bespoke! Kitless or not!
FWIW, I am NOT "pushing" to change vernacular on anything! I'm simply saying, the word has a rather well understood meaning/definition. One that as far as I can tell (thanks to Mal's post in the other thread, which I thought was rather well reasoned and informative; thanks Mal!) goes back quite a ways: 1583! It means something pretty strait forward. It does NOT mean kitless, it means tailor-made. I think that fits with pens, just as well as with clothing, or refrigerators. We can help people understand what the word means, if they don't know... That's all. I'm not saying we should, or must, or shant or cant use the word. I'm not demanding we replace "kitless" with "bespoke", by any means! Not at all. I am just saying that it means something fairly specific, and that meaning can be taught and learned... Its just a word.
I'm saying we shouldn't be banning, or CENSORING, words here... This is language...its a way of communicating. Words mean things, they convey something: meaning, knowledge or intent, they help us communicate. I'm not asking anyone to change anything. I'm simply asking that we not ban a word or censor anyone for the use of a word... Certainly not trying to force anyone to leave the forums because someone asked about a word, and I responded. Right now, you really sound like you are trying to ban a word. THAT is what I'm fighting here. Lets not ban any words, except maybe those that are legit vulgar, cursing, or otherwise generally banned in civilized conversation under normal conversational circumstances.
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I think the word would more generally be used when describing what you CAN make, or HAVE made... You may offer "bespoke" pens, either crafted to someone's explicit wishes, or possibly offered in a variety of particular combinations of hardware and blank options. You may wish to show off a "bespoke" pen that someone ordered from you.
"I make bespoke pens! Let me know if you have an explicit request that can't be met by my existing inventory!"
"I offer bespoke engravings on any pen you order."
You can easily swap in the word "custom" here...or, swap it out for "bespoke"... Colloquially, "bespoke" does seem to be received as being "higher end" than something "simply customized"... Hey, use that, to your advantage, if you can!! (IMHO)
The word "commission" isn't quite a replacement, in my understanding. Someone might in fact, commission a bespoke pen from a pen maker! The two words are not mutually exclusive. Handmade doesn't necessarily convey the nature of the words "custom" and "bespoke" either...everything I make is handmade, only certain pens I've made thus far, have actually been "bespoke" (although, I have had one request come up just the other day, that would indeed be for a bespoke pen...one with a specific plating, and blank design, a segmented design that meets this person's express desire. The only thing not actually specified is the actual pen style...and, as I haven't delved into kitless yet, then its a bespoke kit pen...the blank design can work for a variety of kit options.)
Anyway... Its a word. I honestly don't quite understand the consternation it seems to stir up! Its a word!! It means something, it can be used to communicate... Call me flabbergasted and dumbfounded by this whole thread.
jttheclockman
Member
Jon I lost you around the second paragraph. Maybe we are saying the same thing and I am not picking it up. I along with many others here hate the word. Read into it as you may. It was referred to as kitless that is how this all got started. Has the word evolved in other areas I guess it has as pointed out about appliances and I see vendors here now call materials they sell with the word bespoke in it. Yes it was go back to 2009 and the other thread I linked. People here and members here associated the word with kitless pens because they hated the word kitless. I go way back further here than you so I seen what transpired. Never on this forum will you ever see the bespoken pen when a kit pen is shown. If it has then I stand corrected. Is it a misunderstood word, probably so as are many of the newer words coming on the scene. Am I a loud voice against it yes I am because I feel slighted that my kit pens are revered as cheap as was mentioned by someone and they refuse to call them kit pens or kitless pens and that is their right as it is your right to try to explain what the meaning is. Maybe someday it will become an everyday word here and throughout the industries of all kind. My point in all this Jon is WHY why do we need a word to describe a fountain pen, a rollerball pen or a ballpoint pen. I made this fountain pen for a customer. Not mention weather it is a kit or kitless or anything. Explain that to me. You never have to say to a customer it is a kit pen and I never tell a customer it is a kit pen. I tell them I make my own blanks and they are basically one of a kind. Calling it a bespoke pen is not going to get me any more money. Heck most people have no idea what that is. The word was despised by many not only me so do not make it out as just me. I happen to be a vocal cog on this forum, (good or bad ) look at it anyway you want. I said this before I am totally done with this nonsense. I want you to call every pen you show from now on a bespoke pen. Have fun and enjoy. Count me as an old dog who is confused by this word as much as I am about WOKE. By the way I am not going anywhere for words or what people think of me. I am too old. I enjoy a discussion. As I said do as you wish. Have fun and enjoy the ride. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff man.
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So, its a very simple word. The shortest synonym I can think of, is tailor-made. That's all it means, that you've customized some product to a particular person's specifications. It means nothing more than that...
I think kitless makes plenty of sense, however it does seem to be a word that is semi-local to these forums? I don't know if there is a more meaningful alternative, however, I think kitless is descriptive and clear enough on its own, and at the same time, definitely NOT a synonym for bespoke...
The word bespoke IS sometimes used incorrectly here. In fact, I've seen it used incorrectly on other craft forums...including general woodworking. I think its just that some people don't quite know the definition. It does NOT mean kitless, by any means. You could quite legitimately create a kitless pen that is bespoke, just as much as you could create a kit pen that is bespoke. It may not just be about the blank, you could customize a kit by "bashing" it a bit, combining parts from various compatible kits to create something unique and to order. Bespoke could also just refer to say, customizable engravings. Bespoke also doesn't necessarily mean infinite customizability, it can also refer to something that has a limited range of customizability (i.e. 10 different color options for a pen cap, 5 different color options for the pen body...)
As for why we need the word? I guess, I don't see it the same way you do? I wouldn't say we "need" the word bespoke, to describe a fountain pen, rollerball pen, or ballpoint pen. It IS a word, that could be used, to describe them. It IS a word, and some people will use it...hopefully correctly. I would say we shouldn't be getting all over those people's cases if they do. I certainly won't be calling all of my pens bespoke...the fact that you demand that, belies how little you seem to understand the word or its proper usage.
Or for that matter, what I've been trying to say this whole thread...you seem to think I'm insisting people here use the word. Quite the contrary...I'm just insisting we not prevent people from using it, that we not strike it from our vocabulary. Otherwise, I'm by no means trying to force anyone to do anything...which I do think is quite distinct from you, and the various demands you have made in this thread. This is a marked difference between the two of us...I'm not one to just demand things of people. I'm not sure why you seem so insistent on doing so.
To go beyond that...IMO, bespoke is probably better used to describe the option to customize, than necessarily a customized pen itself. I mentioned this in an earlier post, but here it is again:
"I make bespoke pens! Let me know if you have an explicit request that can't be met by my existing inventory!"
This isn't describing any particular pen. It is instead, describing the option that you offer, to craft bespoke pens in general. Again, its just a word, a word that means something. As with many, many other words, its a word with synonyms. There is no reason you couldn't swap out bespoke for customized:
"I make customized pens! Let me know if you have any explicit request that can't be met by my existing inventory!"
Perfectly fine, for sure. Thing is, bespoke DOES come with certain alternative connotations. Maybe this means more to younger generations. I'm kind of stuck in between, the older and wiser who are more likely to appreciate a high quality well crafted pen, and the much younger and more care free, who seem collectively to be much more interested in...the bespoke. Customized pens is one thing. Bespoke, however, is a whole different...and often more expensive thing. Even though its not, IT IS! ;P Its a word, it conveys certain information. Like it or not, colloquially...maybe more in younger generations, bespoke tends to be taken by...say...potential customers....in a certain way, one that connotates greater luxury, or just something that seems more interesting than...just...customized, etc. Why do you think Samsung is using the word for their bespoke line of appliances? ;P
This sentiment need not even be legitimate, to be real.
Some people seem to think that, using such a word for that exact benefit, is dirty or wrong or something...
Some of us are in this as a business, to make money. Again, I'm no fan of banning words, and this one, used properly, has certain potential benefits above and beyond "customizable" or "customized"... That isn't wrong. Its just smart. From a business standpoint. Yes, I do think, for certain audiences, bespoke CAN get you more money. May depend on the audience.
I've been a software developer for decades, a principal software architect for years now. I've done very little else with my life. I'm really trying to find a way to make a living doing OTHER things. One of those things, I hope, is this pen making business. Its tiny right now, I'm by no means an expert, nor do I have any kind of name in the marketplace. I'll do whatever I can to help build up this business...and a word like bespoke and its beneficial potential from a marketing standpoint, is IMO a wonderful thing to have.
Maybe it is just a fad, a fluke, something that will be here then gone in a couple of years or so. Ok, fine. Again, its just a word. It may have potential now that fades in the future. Might as well use it while it has some power, though, right? I don't even sell the potential "bespoke" nature of my business yet. I'm still just trying to hone my craft, more than anything. That said, its something I've kind of been holding in the wings, so to say...that customizability, with a more lux nametag, is one of those ways you could potentially set yourself apart.
My 0.02 again. In my opinion again the term bespoke also invokes a level of skill and quality as well as a personal interaction that goes hand-in-hand with customization to the buyer's specs. If I were to try and put forth my feeble offerings as bespoke some of my less erudite friends would be right in calling me out for 'puttin' on airs in that thar fancy east coast way o talkin''.
Niether the Montblanc or Samsung examples rise to what I believe the word invokes. Just offering of a menu of items that the buyer can choose from is not the same thing as having a tailor take your specific measurements and create something for /you/.
Now, if the now departed Valleyboy or any of the other top level craftsmen here get a commission for a left handed six fingered man that needs to be a certain size, weight, real silver accents, and have a logo on the blank - then yeah, I think that would hit all the tick boxes for /my opinion/ of what 'bespoke' means.
Niether the Montblanc or Samsung examples rise to what I believe the word invokes. Just offering of a menu of items that the buyer can choose from is not the same thing as having a tailor take your specific measurements and create something for /you/.
Now, if the now departed Valleyboy or any of the other top level craftsmen here get a commission for a left handed six fingered man that needs to be a certain size, weight, real silver accents, and have a logo on the blank - then yeah, I think that would hit all the tick boxes for /my opinion/ of what 'bespoke' means.
RoxnDox
Member
NGLJ
Member
Wow all of this over a single word. Let's just recognize that "we are all separated by a common language". For example, when I came to Canada I had no idea that saying that I wear a "jumper" would get such a reaction, and of course you had better not walk on the "pavement". Prior to emigrating to Canada I lived in southern Scotland for 7 years and that was a real education when it comes to what things mean. It is a mixture of English and Lowlands Scottish. Between that, my strong accent and the strong Ayrshire accent communication was virtually impossible. It took a full 6 months to understand each other! The basic message is "when in Rome". So, let's all chill a little and lovingly embrace what makes us all as we are. The value of any forum is to exchange helpful views but in a respectful and open-minded manner. There should be no "wrong" words, just different ones. Sayonara .
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Cmiles1985
Member
You certainly stepped into a pile that you didn't know existed, and I'm sorry you've experienced the wildness that this word brings about in this community. Etymology is wild in this community.
Years ago I joined a group of former members that really pushed the term "bespoke" with their pen making. What drove me away was the pure arrogance that they associated with their penmaking style. I'm still friends with quite a few of those folks, and some of their posts strike a nerve with their petulance. As @jttheclockman mentioned, certain people didn't like their work being called "kitless" as that term implies that a pen made from a kit is the norm/origin, and a fully handmade pen is the deviation from the norm. Hopefully that last sentence was more of a direct answer to your original question.
I see that you're a new member. You'll find that there are some folks on these forums that know better than others as well as some that project their opinions more strongly than others. While there's been a lot of ...conversation in this thread, it seems surprisingly tame for such a controversial subject. In the old days, this would have really gone off the rails!
Thanks for the bit of history. I appreciate it... Helps clear some things up.
I am honestly surprised myself, at the reaction to a word. To me, its just a word.
A tool used to communicate... I never knew a word could drudge up so much........hate? I've certainly had arguments over words and semantics in the past on other forums...but, I am surprised that it seems some people may in fact be leaving over the use of this one particular word?? That really kind of blows me away...This is not meant to be rude or to purposely rial anyone up, but I just want to let it be clear, I have no intention of not using the word. I don't think its fair, for a portion of a community to demand that others cannot communicate how they want to. I don't have any intention of using the word arrogantly, by any means, but, if I feel the word fits and conveys the meaning I want, then I'll use it. Again, it means something pretty specific, and its a well defined word, as far as I can tell. I think the same would go for kitless (which I take to be pretty benign on its face), or other similar words.
I can understand if certain arrogant personalities, drove the usage of the word in a certain direction in the past, and why there might be animosity towards that BEHAVIOR... I think that's what it should be, though...towards the behavior, not the word. The same should go for other words like kitless. The word is pretty simple and self explanatory. I can understand if its been used arrogantly, or even derogatorily in the past, but again...that's a behavior, and it really is the behavior that should be shunned, not the word.
Anyway...
Any chance that posts could have a limit on the number of words/characters like the original Twitter?? Members could post a second or third message but it might curb some of the more loquacious users!!
Just my tuppence worth
See-even that needs translation {=10 cents!!}
Just my tuppence worth
See-even that needs translation {=10 cents!!}
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NGLJ
Member
Community cannot and should not tolerate arrogance. There will always be those who are more adept at pen making than others. They have an opportunity to help those who are less adept. If they are only here to show how good they are then I respectfully suggest that they don't belong here. I believe that there is no greater reward in life than helping someone if you can, and that is how I have tried to live my life. I am relatively new to pen making but don't feel inferior. I just have a lot to learn, which is why I come here. I may never aspire to "kitless" pens or win any competitions with them. I really don't care. I simply want to enjoy the experience and be satisfied with however far I am able to go.
No translation needed for meAny chance that posts could have a limit on the number of words/characters like the original Twitter?? Members could post a second or third message but it might curb some of the more loquacious users!!
Just my tuppence worth
See-even that needs translation {=10 cents!!}
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