Joe S.
Member
1-4 seem to be the best option to me.
Universal BASH Guidelines and Rules
- Thread starter mbroberg
- Start date
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I am I to understand that the rules will have been already discussed and locked down prior to the chairs being selected? As I see it now the rules will be set by the time the chairs are selected and they wont need to do anything other than post the approved rules.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
There are 2 types of Rules. There are contest rules, which will be written by the chairmen, submitted to and discussed and agreed upon by the planning committee. There are the Universal Rules, which are general rules that will apply to all contests and which we are discussing in this thread.
EDIT IN: See #1 under "CONTEST CHAIRPERSON'S RESPONSIBILITIES".
EDIT IN: See #1 under "CONTEST CHAIRPERSON'S RESPONSIBILITIES".
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Dale Lynch
Member
That seem to me ro be a pretty good idea.A general set of rules and guidelines and then contest specific rules.Question,what if a proposed contest rule interfears with a universal rule?
The establishment of the Universal Rules, and review of the proposed contest rules by the planning committee should eliminate any such situation prior to the rules being presented for membership review. If a conflict does slip by the planning committee I'm sure some member will be kind enough to point that out to us prior to the rules being finalized.
The establishment of the Universal Rules, and review of the proposed contest rules by the planning committee should eliminate any such situation prior to the rules being presented for membership review. If a conflict does slip by the planning committee I'm sure some member will be kind enough to point that out to us prior to the rules being finalized.
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I've been going back & forth in my mind as to whether we should give the general membership an opportunity to review & comment on rules. I'm pretty much in agreement with Mike that we should give the members one chance to review & comment on the rules. We can then take those comments into consideration & decide whether to incorporate the suggestions. At least folks will have had a chance to have their comments considered.
Leaving final rule changes to Mike & Jeff also sounds like a good idea. Once we finalize the rules, any further changes should be an administrative decision.
Leaving final rule changes to Mike & Jeff also sounds like a good idea. Once we finalize the rules, any further changes should be an administrative decision.
I'm fairly new to IAP & this is my first time on the planning committee, so this is more of a question than a suggestion....
I just wonder if if would be better for the planning committee to write all the contest rules rather than leaving that up to the contest chairs?
It seems that that might ensure more consistency in the rules & maybe take some of the pressure off the contest chairs?
Edgar
I just wonder if if would be better for the planning committee to write all the contest rules rather than leaving that up to the contest chairs?
It seems that that might ensure more consistency in the rules & maybe take some of the pressure off the contest chairs?
Edgar
Ed McDonnell
Member
If I was going to add to your "truth" list I would add
"there will be a small subset of the membership that will complain about something once the bash starts no matter how much you attempt to involve the community in the shaping of the rules" :biggrin:
You solicited community input at the end of the last bash. You repeatedly asked for interested parties to get involved in crafting the rules for the coming bash. If you feel we additionally need a public comment period before the bash, then I think it is better done in early December as you are suggesting. I would also suggest that all the reasons for not accepting any of the public suggestions offered during the public comment period be published so that people understand (A) that their suggestion were considered and (B) the reasons why they were not adopted (if any are not adopted).
Ed
"there will be a small subset of the membership that will complain about something once the bash starts no matter how much you attempt to involve the community in the shaping of the rules" :biggrin:
You solicited community input at the end of the last bash. You repeatedly asked for interested parties to get involved in crafting the rules for the coming bash. If you feel we additionally need a public comment period before the bash, then I think it is better done in early December as you are suggesting. I would also suggest that all the reasons for not accepting any of the public suggestions offered during the public comment period be published so that people understand (A) that their suggestion were considered and (B) the reasons why they were not adopted (if any are not adopted).
Ed
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mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
I agree with all of that.
I do, strongly feel that we need the public comment period in December. If for no otherr reason it will make it easier to tell that small subset of the membership to "Shut-Up!" Followed by either "That issue was already brought up, discussed and decided" or "You should of brought that up in December, too late now".
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Cmiles1985
Member
I certainly agree with what has been said above. The rules should go out for public comment, and all suggestions should be looked at and considered with a large grain of salt! You always have to have the card up the sleeve in case someone, after the fact, whines...and they will. This is a large group, and general agreement is unlikely, but as stated above, the focus needs to be the BASH and community involvement.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Obviously my December 1 goal has come and gone. I let my guard down and looked away for a second and all of a sudden the BASH doesn't seem so far away. 
I would like to get proposed rules knocked out and posted for the members comments ASAP. I'll post the events and chairmen that we have so far in the "Events" thread, but I probably won't get to it tonight. I have PM'd all other potential chairmen and should know if they want to play again or not soon.
I would like to get proposed rules knocked out and posted for the members comments ASAP. I'll post the events and chairmen that we have so far in the "Events" thread, but I probably won't get to it tonight. I have PM'd all other potential chairmen and should know if they want to play again or not soon.
Mike - Of course I share your philosophy 100%
When and for what duration were you thinking about a public comment period? Were you going to invite comment for the universal guidelines, then another one for the specific contest rules, or all together?
When and for what duration were you thinking about a public comment period? Were you going to invite comment for the universal guidelines, then another one for the specific contest rules, or all together?
toddlajoie
Member
Is there going to be a universal guidelines (rules) document posted for the Bash (is Post #1 of this thread intended to be that?) that we should refer to in our contest rules? Considering that there are basic guidelines that apply to ALL contests (membership standing, one pen per contest, photo submission requirements, etc) being able to refer everyone to that one place for those points could help keep the individual contest rules a bit cleaner and shorter by not having to have everyone re-stating the same thing in all the contests...
I tend to agree with Todd that the universal rules should be posted and incorporated by reference into the individual contest rules.
Do we have a plan to release all rules (universal and contest-specific) for public comment prior to the bash? It would be nice if we could avoid getting a week into the bash and have some holes or contradictions brought to our attention.
I'd suggest that we have all rules done and released for public comment Jan 12-19. That will give us a good week to make final tweaks based on the comments. We can do this in individual threads or a single thread with an attached word doc.
Do we have a plan to release all rules (universal and contest-specific) for public comment prior to the bash? It would be nice if we could avoid getting a week into the bash and have some holes or contradictions brought to our attention.
I'd suggest that we have all rules done and released for public comment Jan 12-19. That will give us a good week to make final tweaks based on the comments. We can do this in individual threads or a single thread with an attached word doc.
It might be best to post each contest rules in its own thread so discussion is pertinent to that contest.
OK, let's do that here, then I'll move them to Casual Conversation and sticky them all at once. Let's make the subject lines "Bash 11 Rules Review - name of contest"
Universal Bash Rules
Eligibility
1. "To participate in this or any other IAP activity your public profile must contain your real first and last name.
Please be advised that information contained in the public profile is not viewable by non-members of the IAP.
2. Members who have failed to successfully complete any previous IAP activities, and who have been notified by the Activities Manager of such, are not eligible to participate in any IAP activities."
Pen Contests
1. Any pen entered into a BASH contest may not have been shown publically prior to the beginning of the contest.
2. Any pen entered in a BASH contest may not be shown publically, except on the IAP for voting or other legitimate purpose related to the contest, prior to the conclusion of the contest.
3. Contest pens must be completed solely by the member entering the pen in the contest unless the contest rules specifically state that the creation of the pen may or must be a joint effort between two or more members.
4. Blanks need not be made by the person entering the contest unless the contest rules specify that the blank must be made solely by the person entering the contest.
5. Components need not be made by the person entering the contest unless the contest rules specify that the components must be made by the person entering the contest.
6. Entrants may enlist the assistance of a mentor to demonstrate proper techniques such as tool usage and safety. All demonstrations of said techniques will be done on a separate blank or other piece of material. The work done on the pen being entered by the member is to be done by the member
Photo Guidelines
1. Photos will be submitted in the JPEG or JPG format.
2. With the exception of the photo contests, photos of the pen to be entered do not have to be taken by the person entering the pen.
Entries
1. Entry into each BASH contest will be submitted through the link provided within each Contest's Rules.
2. Entry into BASH contests not requiring an entry form "Trivia, Wood ID, Puzzles, Match the Shop, etc." will be done via an email and will include the entrants IAP screen name, real first and last name, mailing address and email address.
Voting
1. Voting will be done via polls of the membership.
2. When possible, vote tallies will be kept hidden until the poll closes.
3. Members will be allowed to vote for as many of the entries as they wish in each poll.
4. All polls will be open for no more than 72 hours.
5. In contests with 1 – 10 entries a single poll will be conducted to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd and if necessary, 4th place winners.
6. In contests with 11 – 20 entries two polls will be conducted. The ten entries with the most amount of votes in the first poll will compete in the second poll to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd and if necessary 4th place winners. In the event of a tie in the top ten positions in the first poll all pens up to the 10th most number of votes will be included in the second poll.
7. In contests with over 20 entries additional polls will be conducted as necessary to determine the final poll of 10 entries.
8. Polls will be conducted within the contest threads.
Eligibility
1. "To participate in this or any other IAP activity your public profile must contain your real first and last name.
Please be advised that information contained in the public profile is not viewable by non-members of the IAP.
2. Members who have failed to successfully complete any previous IAP activities, and who have been notified by the Activities Manager of such, are not eligible to participate in any IAP activities."
Pen Contests
1. Any pen entered into a BASH contest may not have been shown publically prior to the beginning of the contest.
2. Any pen entered in a BASH contest may not be shown publically, except on the IAP for voting or other legitimate purpose related to the contest, prior to the conclusion of the contest.
3. Contest pens must be completed solely by the member entering the pen in the contest unless the contest rules specifically state that the creation of the pen may or must be a joint effort between two or more members.
4. Blanks need not be made by the person entering the contest unless the contest rules specify that the blank must be made solely by the person entering the contest.
5. Components need not be made by the person entering the contest unless the contest rules specify that the components must be made by the person entering the contest.
6. Entrants may enlist the assistance of a mentor to demonstrate proper techniques such as tool usage and safety. All demonstrations of said techniques will be done on a separate blank or other piece of material. The work done on the pen being entered by the member is to be done by the member
Photo Guidelines
1. Photos will be submitted in the JPEG or JPG format.
2. With the exception of the photo contests, photos of the pen to be entered do not have to be taken by the person entering the pen.
Entries
1. Entry into each BASH contest will be submitted through the link provided within each Contest's Rules.
2. Entry into BASH contests not requiring an entry form "Trivia, Wood ID, Puzzles, Match the Shop, etc." will be done via an email and will include the entrants IAP screen name, real first and last name, mailing address and email address.
Voting
1. Voting will be done via polls of the membership.
2. When possible, vote tallies will be kept hidden until the poll closes.
3. Members will be allowed to vote for as many of the entries as they wish in each poll.
4. All polls will be open for no more than 72 hours.
5. In contests with 1 – 10 entries a single poll will be conducted to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd and if necessary, 4th place winners.
6. In contests with 11 – 20 entries two polls will be conducted. The ten entries with the most amount of votes in the first poll will compete in the second poll to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd and if necessary 4th place winners. In the event of a tie in the top ten positions in the first poll all pens up to the 10th most number of votes will be included in the second poll.
7. In contests with over 20 entries additional polls will be conducted as necessary to determine the final poll of 10 entries.
8. Polls will be conducted within the contest threads.
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Im posting the Universal Bash contest rules getting it ready to transfer into the public for debate.
I will change the photo size to 960 x 960 does that affect the file size or is it still 256kb? (I have removed this from the list)
I will change the photo size to 960 x 960 does that affect the file size or is it still 256kb? (I have removed this from the list)
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The server limit is 1meg.
If we're not going to be checking the file size, then I'd say to not bother specifying. The vast majority of images at that resolution would be well under 256k anyway.
EDIT: I mean, specify the dimensions only.
Should the voting rule be changed to
3. Members will be allowed to vote for as many of the entries as they wish in each poll with the exception of the "Final Poll".
4. In the "Final Poll" to choose the winning entry, Members will be limited to choosing only one Entry only.
3. Members will be allowed to vote for as many of the entries as they wish in each poll with the exception of the "Final Poll".
4. In the "Final Poll" to choose the winning entry, Members will be limited to choosing only one Entry only.
I fixed a couple of typos and homogenized the formatting. Looks good.
Let me know when you want me to move this. I suggest we stickie it in Casual Conversation. That's the busiest forum.
Are we going to make a post (or perhaps include with the universal rules) describing why we're posting these, length of the comment period, etc.?
Let me know when you want me to move this. I suggest we stickie it in Casual Conversation. That's the busiest forum.
Are we going to make a post (or perhaps include with the universal rules) describing why we're posting these, length of the comment period, etc.?
I would like to move them to the public around the 16th. That will give us a week to tweak or add anything we need to and give them 2 weeks to debate them. I would add a post asking for comments and feed back.
Monty
Group Buy Coordinator
This would mean if there were 10 entries, they could vote for all 10. I would think they should not be able to vote for more than 1/2 of the entries.
Last year in the summer contests I posted a "Choose 3" for the polls but its not enforceable. THe way the polls operate they can vote for as many as they like or just one.
Of course if they vote for all 10 they would waste their vote.
Of course if they vote for all 10 they would waste their vote.
Ed McDonnell
Member
toddlajoie
Member
I agree with the Final Poll only allowing one vote per person.
Any statement needed on what happens in the event of a tie in places 1 through 3? I.E.:
Any statement needed on what happens in the event of a tie in places 1 through 3? I.E.:
Entry #1: 15 votes
Entry #2: 10 votes
Entry #3: 18 votes
Entry #4: 15 votes
In this situation, is:Entry #2: 10 votes
Entry #3: 18 votes
Entry #4: 15 votes
A. Are #2 and #4 both considered 2nd place, and entry #2 considered 3rd?
B. Would one be considered 2nd and the other 3rd, and therfore #2 would be 4th? Who would make the determination on which is 2nd and which is 3rd?
C. Would we have a runoff vote of some kind?
I think it would be great to get these and the other rules out in the public sooner rather than later if we are going to have public discussion on them...B. Would one be considered 2nd and the other 3rd, and therfore #2 would be 4th? Who would make the determination on which is 2nd and which is 3rd?
C. Would we have a runoff vote of some kind?
Doing a run off poll would be easiest.
We could add "In case of a tie between 1st and 2nd place or between 2nd and 3rd places a special tie breaker poll will be held.
We could add "In case of a tie between 1st and 2nd place or between 2nd and 3rd places a special tie breaker poll will be held.
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mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
I like the vote for as many as you want in the preliminary polls and just one in the final polls. As Mike R points out, we cannot enforce a limit on the number of votes cast by an individual.
Another thing that we cannot control is the fact that "Hidden" poll tallies are viewable by people using forum runner. In the past I have seen one member go out of his way to reveal poll tallies that he know we want to remain hidden for the sole purpose of letting us all know that he can and, IMHO, just to be a pain in the ass. I have always been a proponent of closed polls and I still am. However, since we do not have a way to hide the poll tallies from everyone I suggest that we just accept the fact that it is really not possible to hide the polls and conduct them openly.
Another thing that we cannot control is the fact that "Hidden" poll tallies are viewable by people using forum runner. In the past I have seen one member go out of his way to reveal poll tallies that he know we want to remain hidden for the sole purpose of letting us all know that he can and, IMHO, just to be a pain in the ass. I have always been a proponent of closed polls and I still am. However, since we do not have a way to hide the poll tallies from everyone I suggest that we just accept the fact that it is really not possible to hide the polls and conduct them openly.
Its possible to recommend that they choose x enteries. Most of the members will honor that request. As in the Summer contests when I had CHoose 3, we just cant enforce it.
Displaced Canadian
Member
With when a lot of the contests are ending and the voting is starting there isn't much time to run a preliminary poll and a final poll. I know last year in the freestyle pen contest there was a large gap between the top 4 pens and the rest of the field. Should we plan on doing 2 polls or should we only do the second one if it seems necessary?
Also are we going to have the link to where the entries need to be sent to soon?
Also are we going to have the link to where the entries need to be sent to soon?
toddlajoie
Member
I see your point, but I think the main issue is the being able to vote for multiple pens in the preliminary makes it not necessarily the top vote getter being the top pick for everyone. I.E. if they can vote for their 3 favorites in the preliminaries, people's personal picks for 1st and 2nd could be spread out over a few different pens, but if everyone thought one was a good third place pen, it would receive the most votes...
remember in our guide lines polls will only last 72 hours not a week so that will help.
We will need the link by the first of the month for most contests and Curtis will to supply us with them. He will need your email and some details to set them up. If we have to I can insert them as soon as we get them.
We will need the link by the first of the month for most contests and Curtis will to supply us with them. He will need your email and some details to set them up. If we have to I can insert them as soon as we get them.