To clip or not to clip That IS the question.

[wade45]

First off, I am not disparaging the talent that I see on here.
(the amount of amazing clip and clipless pens that I have seen is crazy)

I have been going through a lot of the old threads trying to catch up after 12 years away.

Here is my observation, on almost 100% of kit pens the clip is used and proudly displayed however the kitless side is heavily tilted toward clipless.
I fully understand the time and skill needed to make a custom clip that adds to the pen. Am I missing something or has the kitless side been lacking in clip development?

Mind you, this is coming from someone that sees no practical function in a clip for the high-end pen users.

I do believe a clip adds to the pen and can showcase some real art and talent. Am I off in thinking that clips should be considered as a must have for high-end pens? (I don't want to say proof of skill but......) From what I have seen most $1000+ pens are clipped.

When judging a pen for a competition or what have you, if two pens of equal quality are shown but one has a clip, would the clipless pen lose every time?

Just a few thoughts as I buy a crap load of tools and material.
Wade

 

[NJturner]

I started out as a kit pen maker - always put the kit together as it was provided - including the clip. It was a rare kit that didn't come with a clip. I'm now pretty much a custom pen maker - not a big volume of them, but my passion is fully custom made, including creating the blank. Clips have been tough. Do I or don't I add a clip? It is really, really hard to make a fully custom made clip - I don't have the metalworking skills to even try it, so when I decide to put a clip on a pen (rarely) it is a purchase, usually from someone like Beaufort Pens. When I do plan a clip, since it is a purchase at a set dimension, it becomes the root of the design for the pen, as you need to accommodate the dimensions presented by the clip and its components. I find this restriction kind of troubling, so few of my creations have clips. Thinking back, I rarely used a clip on any of my kit pens - typically they were kept in a nice sleeve, like my custom pens.

Adding a clip does significantly increase the complexity of the pen, as you have to figure out how to attach it, allow for its size, and often custom cut some rebates to allow it to pass through the blank to the outer surface of the pen. But I don't find that to be stopping me - it's more of the design restrictions that put me off. Clips also have become a lot more expensive lately, due to import issues associated with bringing items in from overseas. Since I don't sell my pens, cost is somewhat of a consideration to me and the costs of nibs, convertors, etc have all went up pretty high, making my hobby a bit costly unfortunately.

I don't see a clip or not a clip as a quality issue - it's more a personal preference. I do agree, I don't see the need for a clip on most of the pens I use, so it is not a factor to me unless I am making a specific gift item for someone with a preference. I find making the decision to make a pen postable or not postable to be more of a concern in designing it then clip or not. Just my two cents.

Kevin

 

[jttheclockman]

Kevin summed it up perfectly with his last statement. It is a personal choice by you or by the customer if making custom orders. Kit pens look best with clips and no, clips actually do have a purpose in my opinion. A couple things. They add glitz and statement to the pen and many times pens are defined by their clips. Plus clips help if it is a everyday carry pen for they work well with pockets or clipped to pad or other object. If they are a desk pen then they act as a roller stop. With kitless many times you may not see a clip but will see a little roller stop of some sort (for lack of not knowing what they are called) . But also as mentioned to make pens postable or not becomes a choice thing as well. Whatever you decide I am sure you will make different styles over the years to come. Good luck and have some fun.

 

[wade45]

Great insights guys.
I agree that on kitless pens clips tend to be one of the biggest design factors.

Postable is a whole another rabbit hole of best design practices.

 

[d_bondi]

I started out as a kit pen maker - always put the kit together as it was provided - including the clip. It was a rare kit that didn't come with a clip. I'm now pretty much a custom pen maker - not a big volume of them, but my passion is fully custom made, including creating the blank. Clips have been tough. Do I or don't I add a clip? It is really, really hard to make a fully custom made clip - I don't have the metalworking skills to even try it, so when I decide to put a clip on a pen (rarely) it is a purchase, usually from someone like Beaufort Pens. When I do plan a clip, since it is a purchase at a set dimension, it becomes the root of the design for the pen, as you need to accommodate the dimensions presented by the clip and its components. I find this restriction kind of troubling, so few of my creations have clips. Thinking back, I rarely used a clip on any of my kit pens - typically they were kept in a nice sleeve, like my custom pens.

Adding a clip does significantly increase the complexity of the pen, as you have to figure out how to attach it, allow for its size, and often custom cut some rebates to allow it to pass through the blank to the outer surface of the pen. But I don't find that to be stopping me - it's more of the design restrictions that put me off. Clips also have become a lot more expensive lately, due to import issues associated with bringing items in from overseas. Since I don't sell my pens, cost is somewhat of a consideration to me and the costs of nibs, convertors, etc have all went up pretty high, making my hobby a bit costly unfortunately.

I don't see a clip or not a clip as a quality issue - it's more a personal preference. I do agree, I don't see the need for a clip on most of the pens I use, so it is not a factor to me unless I am making a specific gift item for someone with a preference. I find making the decision to make a pen postable or not postable to be more of a concern in designing it then clip or not. Just my two cents.

Kevin

THIS! 100%

 

[d_bondi]

So, I was fortunate to be able to attend the San Francisco Pen Show this year. And even more fortunate to get to sit with some serious collectors one evening while they pulled out some unbelievable pens. One of the collectors pulled out a roll of 10 different Namiki Emperor Urushi Fountain Pens. None of the pens in this roll could be purchased for under $10,000. None of them had clips or roll stops.

I still agree 100% with what Kevin (@NJturner) stated above, but wanted to provide this data point.

I should also add that I want to add clips to my offerings, I just want to be able to do something more unique, so there I am increasing the barrier to entry for myself...

 

[Todd in PA]

To me, the clip is what makes the object look like a pen. When I see pens without clips, they look like sausages to me.

I made a handful of kitless pens without clips and was wholly unsatisfied with the look of the product. The Artemis and Apollo kits don't have clips and are therefore on my no fly list.

 

[BHuij]

My opinion is my opinion and nothing more, but I find pens without clips (or at least a roll stop) to be aesthetically... wrong, somehow. Not only do I actually use the clips on all of my pens and find them functional, I think a pen never looks quite right without one. When I make kit or custom pens, they always have a clip.

 

[wade45]

So, I was fortunate to be able to attend the San Francisco Pen Show this year. And even more fortunate to get to sit with some serious collectors one evening while they pulled out some unbelievable pens. One of the collectors pulled out a roll of 10 different Namiki Emperor Urushi Fountain Pens. None of the pens in this roll could be purchased for under $10,000. None of them had clips or roll stops.

I still agree 100% with what Kevin (@NJturner) stated above, but wanted to provide this data point.

I should also add that I want to add clips to my offerings, I just want to be able to do something more unique, so there I am increasing the barrier to entry for myself...

Clearly I was looking at to low of value pens

Thanks for the prospective these are the kind of answers I'm needing.

 

[wade45]

Bhui, Todd

I completely understand how you feel there is a big part of my style choice that says a pen must have a clip. It's like a suit without a tie it's not the complete uniform.

I also like the way a clipless pen can show off more of the blank being used without drawing the eyes to the clip and it's execution.

Great insight guys thanks.

 

[NGLJ]

As it happens I am going through this right now. In fact just finished a custom pen with clip today. I have made a few pens with a clip, partly as an experiment. Indeed the clip that you choose, either made or purchased, pretty much drives the entire design whether you choose to bury it or not. It isn't just the OD and ID of the clip but also the gap to the clip itself which affect how it might look. The deciding factor for me wrt "clip or no clip" is the appearance of the pen, which is very subjective. I have decided that custom pens using wood as the outside finish look best with a clip versus any other finish. I just happen to think that it looks classy, and who doesn't like wood. I am pretty sure everyone here is a "woodworker" in some capacity.

Having struggled with getting the finial and cap the same OD, and attaching the clip, I now attach the finial by adding a thread the same as the cap, which requires threading the finial end of the cap. Then you can screw the finial onto the cap without the clip and turn and finish both together. As you go, you can check the clip against the turning for fit. Sometimes the ID of the clip won't fit over the thread on the finial, and requires boring out until it lust slips over with no slop. Then when you screw on the finial and clip it all lines up. I haven't tried "burying" the clip yet. I can see the attraction in terms of appearance, but adds another level of complexity. For reference, her is the pen that I finished today.

The wood is cocobolo, one of my favorites, the section is brass (Turners Warehouse) and the nib is a Jowo #6 with fine tip (my preference for my writing style). The black clip is from Beaufort Ink. The threads are M12 x 0.75 and M9 x 0.75. For the cap, my first challenge was that my largest drill bit is 13 mm for drilling the hole in the cap wood. Drilling a concentric hole through a 13 mm Delrin dowel with an 11.25 mm drill bit is not easy. I used 7/16". So I had to drill through a 16 mm dowel, thread it, and then turn it down to 12.5 mm for it to fit into the 13 mm hole in the wood.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ok I will expand the thought process thing here some and ask question. Why does a fountain pen need a clip? Are foutain pens more a desk pen or do people carry fountain pens in pockets. I keep thinking of leaking. Just thinking out loud.

 

[wade45]

Ok I will expand the thought process thing here some and ask question. Why does a fountain pen need a clip? Are foutain pens more a desk pen or do people carry fountain pens in pockets. I keep thinking of leaking. Just thinking out loud.

I agree with this thought.
My question was along the lines, on "all" kit pens people use the clip but some how transitioning to kitless "most" don't use clips.
Kevin made a really good point in that kitless pens that clips are used are designed around the clip.

Most kit pens would look just fine without a clip yet the clip is "always" used.
I feel that to clip or not to clip is a matter of difficulty not a matter of style. If it was a matter of style we would see more kit pens without clips.
I could be totally wrong in my thinking here. I am trying to gage the prevailing thoughts.

Wade

 

[jttheclockman]

I agree with this thought.
My question was along the lines, on "all" kit pens people use the clip but some how transitioning to kitless "most" don't use clips.
Kevin made a really good point in that kitless pens that clips are used are designed around the clip.

Most kit pens would look just fine without a clip yet the clip is "always" used.
I feel that to clip or not to clip is a matter of difficulty not a matter of style. If it was a matter of style we would see more kit pens without clips.
I could be totally wrong in my thinking here. I am trying to gage the prevailing thoughts.

Wade

Be honest with you I have never seen a kit pen without a clip. Many times the cost is too extreme to leave the clip off. I would never do it and I also do not make kitless pens. There are some really talented kitless pen makers here that make works of art especially the clips they make.

 

[NGLJ]

I don't think any pen necessarily needs a clip. I am sure if we dig far enough into the past it would become clear how they arose, and it has become a habit, as demonstrated with kits. Each of us no doubt has our reasons for "to clip or not to clip", and that is all that matters. Like so many things in life "it is simply a matter of opinion".

 

[TonyL]

just my personal preference - i like a roll-stop on any double-barrel pen. a single-barrel ballpoint is the only pen i like a clip. just my preference.

 

[NJturner]

@NGLJ - beautiful pen! I know the clip is there, but your choice of materials moves it into the total design of the pen, not a standout highlight.

I have a local friend who is a vintage pen collector. He loaned me a book on the history of fountain pens printed over 35 years ago recently and the one thing that I saw throughout the book was the emphasis on pen design using a signature clip. The book covered many different manufacturers in detail and showed some pretty unique 'signature' items embedded in any given line - lots of them patented by the manufacturers. This brought me to a lot of new ideas for my own pens.

I can't share the book, as it is extremely hard to find these days, but here is a link to a patent listing of things pen companies/makers have applied for patents on. Pretty interesting look. Fountain Pen Patent List . You will find most of the manufacturers you know and lots of patents by one of the earliest pen manufacturers, John Holland Co. The links in the pages take you to the patent applications and pictures of the pens of applied for patents prior to 1970 or so - when this was originally posted (edited occassionally after).

This list came from the Fountain Pen Board site - somewhat low energy fountain pen site compared to ours, but might also be worth a look Fountain Pen Board

Have fun!

Kevin

 

[MikeG]

On a fountain pen I like having a clip to help me get the "proper alignment" between the cap and the body. By proper alignment I am referring to the inlay or grain patterns matching across the center band. I note the relationship between clip and the nib when starting to thread the cap on the body so that the patterns match.