Tenon length/thread depth

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InkyMike

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Hello everyone

I'm still working my way through techniques using kits - but I got to thinking about prototyping kit-less designs sometime in the near future. I've ton a ton of reading here, and I also have the Pen Turing Bible (I've not completed reading it yet) - I've searched and not found the answer - but I'm sure I'm missing something.

For both the cap/body as well as the section - that is the rule of thumb for tenon length/thread depth? I'm going to be starting with single start dies, but I would assume these measurements could/would change after moving to triple start?

Thanks!
Michael
 
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Oliver X

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Such is the joy of not using kits, there are no rules.

The basic idea is that you want enough thread that the parts are held secure and the force is distributed across enough material that a little extra torque when closing won't take the threads off the parts. You also don't want so much thread that an inordinate number of turns are required to separate the parts. Sections don't come off often, so you have some liberty there, but caps should ideally come off in less than two turns.

My cap threads are almost always 30TPI triple start which means the lead is .1". This is very close to the typical m13x.8 tripe start taps and dies that are popular which are just a tiny bit finer/slower. (2.4mm vs 2.54mm for the .1".) For each turn of the cap, the cap moves .1" So to keep the number of turns under two, the thread engagement needs to be under .2". A tenon should have a reduced or chamfered end where it meets the section. My preference is to have both. I'll cut the tenon end somewhere between .025" to .1" at the same diameter as the end of the section which must be smaller than the minor diameter of the thread. I'll then have a 45 degree step up to the major diameter of my thread. The length of the tenon then needs to be long enough to accommodate the .2" of complete thread plus whatever over run. It'll also need to have some clearance length for the die or threading tool if the barrel is larger than the tenon, which in my case, it usually is, but not by much. I don't like large steps, but I like a clean delineation between the threaded tenon and the barrel. It's purely cosmetic. (As an aside, large steps and flush cap to barrel joints are popular, but they're kind of awful from a user standpoint. Some people don't mind them, but a great many people do. Also, there's no reason to cut a relief behind the threads on the tenon. It makes the joint weak and frankly, it looks terrible.) So now we have a tenon that's long enough to get two complete turns of a cap.

Onto the cap. The inside of the cap should have three different bore diameters. The deepest and smallest should accommodate the nib. The next should accommodate the section and is usually the minor diameter of the threads although it doesn't have to be, that's the simplest. The last is the relief to pass over the threads and any unthreaded portion of the barrel tenon. Here's some things I see that are often missed. The section should stop on the shoulder between the nib part bore and the section part bore. That accomplishes several things. It provides a hard stop. Stopping on a square shoulder is more positive and much safer than stopping my running up to the end of the thread. Stopping on the cap lip against the step at the end of the tenon can cause the lip to crack. It seals the nib from the outside air preventing it from drying out. (My pens can sit for months without drying out without resorting to o-rings or other gimmicks.) This method also works equally well whether or not the tenon and barrel are the same diameter or if they have a step, but the when there is a step, it must be measured and cut carefully so as to prevent the cap from stopping on the lip. The last relief cut needs to be deep enough to clear all the unthreaded and partially threaded portion of the barrel tenon. I usually cut mine just a couple thou, at most, larger than the tenon. If you then want to reduce the number of turns required to cap and uncap the pen, this relief can but cut deeper. Cutting the relief deeper should have no other effect as the cap should still be stopping when the internal shoulder hits the front of the section.

Those are my thoughts on the matter. Hope it helps.
 
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InkyMike

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Thank you for this - I'd joke and say "I was told there would be no math." I understand everything you outlined, but I need to transpose it in to the taps and dies I have on the way. For the moment I'm using single start and I have a 12x.75 and a 9x.75 ( as well as a tap for a Jowa #5.) I went this route after a lot of research on here including an older post that walked the process end to end - but wasn't specific on the tenon lengths. only the diameters and tap/die sizes.

I'm sure I'll have some follow ups after chewing on this for a bit.

Michael
 

duncsuss

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Thank you for this - I'd joke and say "I was told there would be no math." I understand everything you outlined, but I need to transpose it in to the taps and dies I have on the way. For the moment I'm using single start and I have a 12x.75 and a 9x.75 ( as well as a tap for a Jowa #5.) I went this route after a lot of research on here including an older post that walked the process end to end - but wasn't specific on the tenon lengths. only the diameters and tap/die sizes.

I'm sure I'll have some follow ups after chewing on this for a bit.

Michael

Just to give you a starting point: when I make a section tenon using M9x0.75, I usually make the tenon length 5 to 6 mm long. It's not critical.

I do not make a step-up at the end of the threads on the exterior of the barrel unless a client specifically asks for it. I dislike them intensely. I aim for 1.5 turns of the cap before the end of the section bottoms out against a step inside the cap (providing the positive stop that Oliver talks about). That doesn't mean I only cut 1.5 turns-worth of threads on the barrel - normally I do about 3 turns-worth, but then relieve the inside of the cap to adjust the action - shortening the number of turns, and ensuring that the cap actually covers all the threads.

If I had to use a single start tap for the cap/barrel, I would aim for about 3 turns to get the mechanical support and to reduce the chances of the cap coming unscrewed accidentally. That is the advantage of multi-start threads - triple leads have the mechanical strength of 3x the number of single threads without the additional turns.
 

InkyMike

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Just to give you a starting point: when I make a section tenon using M9x0.75, I usually make the tenon length 5 to 6 mm long. It's not critical.

I do not make a step-up at the end of the threads on the exterior of the barrel unless a client specifically asks for it. I dislike them intensely. I aim for 1.5 turns of the cap before the end of the section bottoms out against a step inside the cap (providing the positive stop that Oliver talks about). That doesn't mean I only cut 1.5 turns-worth of threads on the barrel - normally I do about 3 turns-worth, but then relieve the inside of the cap to adjust the action - shortening the number of turns, and ensuring that the cap actually covers all the threads.

If I had to use a single start tap for the cap/barrel, I would aim for about 3 turns to get the mechanical support and to reduce the chances of the cap coming unscrewed accidentally. That is the advantage of multi-start threads - triple leads have the mechanical strength of 3x the number of single threads without the additional turns.
Thank you - for the step inside the cap, I would assume you would want to use an end mill as opposed to a drill but to ensure it's square, correct? Or would a slight bevel from a drill bit drilling out the relief work better?

Michael
 

Oliver X

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For the shoulder where the section stops, either is fine. It's possibly better that it matches the angle of the front of the section so you have more than line contact, but an angle there won't hurt. The relief at the lip for the threads is probably best done with a drill as an angled lead in to a thread is better than a square shoulder.

All that said, I cut all the internal features on my caps with a boring bar. I think the tool matters a whole lot less than the result.
 

InkyMike

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For the shoulder where the section stops, either is fine. It's possibly better that it matches the angle of the front of the section so you have more than line contact, but an angle there won't hurt. The relief at the lip for the threads is probably best done with a drill as an angled lead in to a thread is better than a square shoulder.

All that said, I cut all the internal features on my caps with a boring bar. I think the tool matters a whole lot less than the result.
Makes sense - thank you - I see your info says you're in the Pacific Northwest. I'm in Maple Valley. Small world.
Michael
 

duncsuss

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Thank you - for the step inside the cap, I would assume you would want to use an end mill as opposed to a drill but to ensure it's square, correct? Or would a slight bevel from a drill bit drilling out the relief work better?

Michael

Until a month ago, I used one regular "jobber" drill bit after another - so the step inside the cap was angled at 118 degrees or whatever the standard grind is. Then I asked Rick Herrell to make me a three diameter step-drill, which does have square shoulders at each step. I haven't been using it long enough to know whether this has improved the stop-action (or more significantly, improved the air seal that keeps the ink in the nib & feed from drying out when the pen isn't in use.)

At the opening of the cap, I remove threads using a tiny scraper which I made from an old worn out metal file - baked it in the oven for a while to anneal it, then ground the tang to the shape I wanted. It works for me :)
 

duncsuss

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Also ... FWIW ... I used M9 x 0.75 for the section-to-barrel tenon until very recently.

I just made my first pen using 3/8" x 32 tpi ("UNEF" standard). 3/8" is close to 9.5mm, and 32 tpi is close to 0.70mm pitch. It adds just a little meat to the wall around the hole drilled for the cartridge/converter, without making the wall too thin between the section and the cap threads, which are M13 x 0.8 x 3.

When I use 12mm cap threads, I might go back to M9x0.75 for the section, but for 13mm cap threads this could be a sweet spot.

Also ... because I like to keep things simple, in this first pen with 3/8 x 32 tpi section threads, I used 3/8 x 32 for the clip finial too. I'm not sure that was such a good idea, because it meant I couldn't narrow the cap quite as much towards the finial as I would have normally, and it also means that I now have to think about 2 different sizes of clip to make when I do a batch of them. Hmmm. I think the clip finial might be going back to M9 x 0.75.
 
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