Teacher not allowed to use red ink!

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sbwertz

sbwertz

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My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen. When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!

Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?
 
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Sounds crazy, doesn't it? My wife is an A level teacher ( also English ) and they are also not permitted to use red ink for marking.
She uses purple mostly
 
Sooooooo...that's what happened to my self-esteem??:biggrin: My mother was a teacher and the only thing red ink was bad for was my bottom.:wink:
 
Marking is as much about giving constructive feedback and positive comments as it is about marking things as 'wrong'. Red has a connotation of 'error' and negativity...

I've actually noticed that when I put comments in red, students tend to read them less than if they're green (which sometimes looks like I've squashed bugs all over the page). :smile:

Red means stop, or wrong - which is not what I tend to be noting on a student's paper.
 
I've got to really hold my tongue on this one. I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning. But that's just my opinion. I will not be coming back to this discussion.
 
MichaelD said:
I've got to really hold my tongue on this one. I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning. But that's just my opinion. I will not be coming back to this discussion.
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Teaching does not occur in a vacuum - without using psychology, it's tough to develop effective teaching methods.
 
I don't know, Andrew. Just possibly Mr. Rodgers' (my HS Principle) paddle really was a psychological device after all, but it sure felt like a but busting every time I was the on the receiving end. Whatever it was, there was never any doubt that my attention was attained and held. Often, especially in college, my papers resembled the results of an abstract artist's brush cleaning session. I did learn to own my errors, admit they were mine and strive to correct them.
 
My wife was a teacher (I asked her to quit and she reluctantly did), she loved teaching but the hardest parts was dealing with the admin and the parents. Kids today have to be treated with silk gloves or they will run to mommy and then MOMMY runs to the admin whining about how little Joey was whining...I mean expressing how he was mistreated by the teacher bec he got an B on a test but the teacher needs to give him an A bec if not it will affect his GPA wha, wha, wha. Too much of a headache if you asked me...and then having to do more work when she got home to get ready for the next day, she really cared about the kids but the political correctness requirements were just crazy. And for the most part the admin would throw the teacher under the bus just to make whinny parents happy.
Back in my day parents actually worked WITH teachers today its a constant battle. Yea, I have some pretty strong feelings on this topic...so I'll stop here.
 
I wonder if George Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt or any of our great leaders esteem was damaged by red marks or is it just the kids of today. I greatly suspect that the child of today could stand a little of old fashion learning. Reading, Writing, Rithmatic and a taste of the hickory stick should the occasion arise. Enough said.

Ben
 
Yeah! let's not tell kids they're underachieving or when they get things wrong.
Let's leave it till they get out into the big wide world where of course EVERYONE will make allowances for their shortcomings & their fragile egos. Gimme a break & get over it!
 
Her students are IB students....the cream of the crop....and will be going to college next year. They are not grade school kids, or underprivileged kids. Believe me, college professors are not going to spare the red pencil! What are their tender psyches going to do the first time a college professor tears their precious prose to shreds and hands it back to redo? Is it fair to the kids to send them into the lions' den unprepared? And, yes, she gets the parents screaming at her door when she fails one of them for not turning in the assignments. I will give her department chair credit for standing behind her, though.

Last year she had two seniors who didn't graduate with their class because they didn't bother to do all the assignments. They thought, mistakenly, that their social status and bank balance would force the school to let them graduate with their class. They had been told, explicitly, that they would not be able to graduate if they didn't make up the work, but chose not to do so. So they had to go to summer school to make up the missed assignments and got their diploma, but didn't get to go through the graduation ceremony.
 
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I'm with the real world adults that understand the more you mollycoddle kids the more you damage them in the long run. I've only gone through 3 daughters and 3 grandkids and I'm a dinosaur but if people can't remember how good life was in the day when we were taught right from wrong, then they are either in denial or so short-termed memory or so young they don't know the difference. Unlike the older and wiser in this thread I'm adamant about the psychological crap they preach these days is bullcrap and the laziest way out for parents and others( teachers are off limits because they are hog-tied) seems to be the way the new generation is tilting. I understand every generation comes out with a smarter and better way of doing things but has anyone noticed it's not getting better, just different? Sorry about the rant but someone has to stand up and say enough of this crap..
 
How come, when I went to school having my error's marked/corrected in red never did a darned thing to my self esteem? It indicated only that I'd missed a question/problem. When did it start to mean that the student was inadequate? Red was used only because it was easy to see where the mistakes were, no other reason. If the teacher uses purple or green for the same purpose how long will it be before purple or green become associated with failure and "damages" the childs self esteem??

I also didn't get smiles when I got a problem/question correct - that was just doing what was expected of me, doing what you should do is no great reason for reward.
maxwell_smart007 said:
MichaelD said:
I've got to really hold my tongue on this one. I had visions of being an educator when I started school but began to see early on there was serious movement to psychology and politics in education and not student learning. But that's just my opinion. I will not be coming back to this discussion.
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Teaching does not occur in a vacuum - without using psychology, it's tough to develop effective teaching methods.
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Copy editing used to be done in blue pencil. Then "blue penciling" became synonymous with censoring. Somewhere, out there, some copy editor is probably lamenting that right now.

We don't use chalk and slates anymore either, although a stylus and tablet are the same concept.

When I graded college exams, I used green or purple. It had nothing to do with sparing feelings. It had more to do with an accidental discovery that I had fewer arguments seeking "partial credit" than if I used red ink.
 
"They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. Smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork and dump enough to accept the lousy paycheck..." - George Carlin.
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This is not meant to be political or anything but a quote of the Late George Carlin that seems to hold a truism of the current status of public education in the United States.
 
What an interesting thread! Clearly the problem is not just in the US - we have decided to home-school our kids because as far as I can make out schooling in the UK is simply a form of long-term childminding so that parents can get back to contributing to the economy as soon as possible. It certainly doesn't seem to be about education anymore - teachers threaten to go out on strike when the government suggests testing the kids at various stages ... what are they scared of? That the kids will be revealed as inadequate or that the teaching will be revealed as inadequate?

Steven will remember (as do I) that in South Africa we sat exams every year, got them marked in red ink and got held back a year if we failed. I may have self-esteem issues but NONE OF THEM have anything to do with getting a proper education ...

{DEEP BREATH}{RANT OVER}
 
PWL said:
A spanking at school meant another one when I got home. Teachers did their jobs and parents supported them! PW
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Yeah. Nowadays, a spanking at school means a fight and or police and a big $$ lawsuit. And the kid does the same dumb crap the next day. The modern day laser focus feelings and safety (regarding little to no physical activity/play) is a great disservice to the long term success of both the children and the country as a whole.
 
I have a pen on the lathe that is specifically for red ink for correcting test reports and specs. I use red ink when editing on my own work so it stands out from all the black and white on the page.

My boss often edits (corrects) my work with a black pen, I don't think he's concerned about my self esteem though. I think it's tougher to find all the corrections (edits).
 
It seems like many of todays kids are being set up for failure. My wife works in HR for a large US company and the kids that never see 'red ink' will be the same ones that don't understand what a bad review is. A couple of bad reviews and it's out the door. Maybe then they will understand...

These kids are also raised by 'helicopter parents' who hover over every move their kids make. A few years back our neighbor girl wanted to see what my wife did at work and 'interview' some of my wife's co-workers for a school project. Every appointment had to come thru the mother and not the girl herself.

I can understand the 'every kid gets an award' for some activities because it will keep them interested (vs losing all the time) but at a certain point you have to reward them based on results.
 
It seems to me that political correctness has contributed to the dumbing down of society. We are more interested in making everyone feel warm and fuzzy instead of doing the right thing.
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Everyday I'm vertical is a great day
 
turncrazy43 said:
It seems to me that political correctness has contributed to the dumbing down of society. We are more interested in making everyone feel warm and fuzzy instead of doing the right thing.
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Everyday I'm vertical is a great day
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How is marking a paper in some color other than red dumbing anyone down?
 
Brian G said:
Copy editing used to be done in blue pencil. Then "blue penciling" became synonymous with censoring. Somewhere, out there, some copy editor is probably lamenting that right now.

We don't use chalk and slates anymore either, although a stylus and tablet are the same concept.

When I graded college exams, I used green or purple. It had nothing to do with sparing feelings. It had more to do with an accidental discovery that I had fewer arguments seeking "partial credit" than if I used red ink.
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What does that have to do with red correction markings? The switch away from chalk boards to whiteboard with dry markers was made long whatever they do now was from that. No baring at all on why they are 'banning' red correction today.

That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality.

Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way. So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.
 
Smitty37 said:
Brian G said:
Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way. So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.
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Agreed . I will do my best to make you smile but I will never give you a smiley face .
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As Smitty said earlier, red was used simply so that teachers' comments & marking stood out from the students' work. In my schools, (& I suspect many others too) red comments could be positive & not just negative! Students often got "Well Done!" "Good Effort!" & "See Me!" didn't always mean a dressing down & all written in red ink. It seems that the modern trend is that we reward people now simply for turning up! I was delighted to see that the OP's daughter was actually able to fail kids & got the backing of her seniors!
Let's face it a future boss (if one succeeds in finding a job) isn't going to be polite or 'nice' at performance reviews, if you've turned in a poor performance.
 
Kretzky said:
As Smitty said earlier, red was used simply so that teachers' comments & marking stood out from the students' work. In my schools, (& I suspect many others too) red comments could be positive & not just negative! Students often got "Well Done!" "Good Effort!" & "See Me!" didn't always mean a dressing down & all written in red ink. It seems that the modern trend is that we reward people now simply for turning up! I was delighted to see that the OP's daughter was actually able to fail kids & got the backing of her seniors!
Let's face it a future boss (if one succeeds in finding a job) isn't going to be polite or 'nice' at performance reviews, if you've turned in a poor performance.
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Oh I was polite enough....but the employee didn't walk out of my office thinking he/she had gotten kudos for just showing up for work.
 
Smitty37 said:
What does that have to do with red correction markings? . . .

That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality.

Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way. So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.
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It has less to do with red ink corrections than my comment about blue pencil edits, but to point out that some things change with time. My observation about green and purple causing fewer arguments about seeking partial credit represented my reality, and I'm not assigning it as a solution for universal applications, so I disagree that it's an ad hoc observation.

I think this is one of those things people get worked up about because they can, not because it matters. If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter the color of ink.

I'm hopeful 1080Wayne can fix his post above to correct the comment incorrectly attributed to me.
 
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Brian G said:
Smitty37 said:
What does that have to do with red correction markings? . . .

That's an ad hoc observation and might or might not represent reality.

Children learn what we teach them, and if chilcren associate red with failure or less than adequate performance and the lack of a smiley face when they do something right as a slight, it is because that is what they were taught -- they were not born thinking that way. So if children are becoming more sensitive to such things it is because and only because that is what they are being taught to do.
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It has less to do with red ink corrections than my comment about blue pencil edits, but to point out that some things change with time. My observation about green and purple causing fewer arguments about seeking partial credit represented my reality, and I'm not assigning it as a solution for universal applications, so I disagree that it's an ad hoc observation.

I think this is one of those things people get worked up about because they can, not because it matters. If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter the color of ink.

I'm hopeful 1080Wayne can fix his post above to correct the comment incorrectly attributed to me.
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Your reality is no different than anyone elses reality. Reality is reality - what's real is real. The way you describe your "personal reality exactly fits the definition of ad hoc when used as an adverb i.e. ad hoc observation. "
For the specific purpose, case, or situation at hand and for no other:" ​
 
Since people believe that changes like this will have some effect on the children's future employment (even though it is unlikely that they are even aware of the issue), I'll give my opinion on decisions made and how I expect my employees to accept a decision.

When decisions must be made, I try to find out as much about the issue as practical and then I make the decision. I communicate the decision to the affected employees and give them a brief explanation of why I made that decision. They don't have to like my decision, but they do have to implement my decision as I direct them to. If I learned that my employees were whining about that decision online or otherwise, it would not reflect well on them or their future employment.

Just saying.
 
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Main Point

My main point is that children are born a blank sheet and they respond to things they way they are taught to respond.

They are not born thinking in any particular manner about anything.

If they begin to associate red marks on paper as representing "negative" feedback, it is because they have been taught to make that association.

Just as they learn from us to say "please" and "thank you" at certain times and to avoid using some words they learn from us when to have their feelings hurt by what others say and do.

If a child feels "down" because they didn't get a smiley face and Johnny did it's because we taught them to feel that way.

By just observing my grandchildren I can see that they are very sensitive to any number of things that wouldn't have bothered me in the least and wouldn't even have bothered their parents but they have been taught to be bothered by them.
 
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