Holy Mackerel Steve---you're doing something that I agree with whole heartedly. Although, if I disagreed with my boss's decision I would tell him "You're the boss and I'll do as you say, but I don't think this is the right way to go" or something like that. He/she would usually ask what my thinking was. Once in a blue moon they might modify their decision a little.
Teacher not allowed to use red ink!
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Brian G
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My other ad hoc observation is that this is just another GOFT.
Out, and I'll stay of the lawn.
Out, and I'll stay of the lawn.
sbell111
Member
The problem is, that's an assumption that doesn't hold up to reality. After all, the teacher wasn't told not to be critical of students' work. She was merely told not to use red ink.
sbell111
Member
The thing that gets me is that the reason that the teacher was told might not be the actual reason for the decision. All too often, people answer questions regardless of whether they actually know the answer. Perhaps the 'self-esteem' answer was given by such a person.
Would you people be up in arms if the answer was 'red doesn't photocopy well'?
Would you people be up in arms if the answer was 'red doesn't photocopy well'?
Actually at one time it didn't....Our local food pantry still requires volunteers to do some things in red because they think it won't copy - or at least they did until I showed them one day that it copies just fine and in red on their latest copier.
I think I have heard the "self esteem" explaination from enough different sources (from sports, to recess play ground games, to class room operations) to be convinced that it is often the reason things are done. It is often even applied to some adult situations now days.
sbell111
Member
I noticed that you decided not to actually answer the question.
Chatham PenWorks
Member
Sbell111
You asked a question that'd already been answered, several times over.
You asked a question that'd already been answered, several times over.
I thought I did - no and I am no up in arms because some schools don't allow teachers to correct papers with red pencil or ink either. I think it is a world of dumb, but I'm not up in arms about it.
Carl Fisher
Member
Common sense in the world has checked out with no expectations to return. Red ink is crushing self-esteem? What a crock. Teachers can't correct the kids or the parents are down there screaming at the school about their precious little perfect children. I have 3 kids, please use red ink to call out mistakes so they learn from them! You'll never find me arguing with a teacher because they corrected an incorrect answer.
BLUE
GREEN
RED
YELLOW
BLUE
GREEN
RED
YELLOW
sbell111
Member
Really ??? Where?
Daju
Member
Well, in the real life of facilities construction engineering, the designers mark up the drawings repeatedly using red for items needing correction and yellow for correct items. That's why we call checking documents red-lines. Green, purple and black have different connotations and meanings. These procedures are industry wide, established and recognized in our ISO quality certification documents and followed strictly. Guess that's OK when your working driven, creative, and caring ADULTS! Get used to it cause it ain't never gonna change.
One of my daughters' elementary teachers started putting smiley stickers on good papers....she later was a coach for the same daughters in high school sports and remains friends with my daughter who still lives near her. She confessed to me a couple of years ago that she, after a couple of years, was sorry she'd ever started doing it. It seems that the children who got stickers began to mock those who didn't get a sticker and get upset if they turned in a paper and didn't get one. So she had to start putting them on all the papers to keep peace in the classroom.
rd_ab_penman
Member
My grade 3 teacher used red ink, never hurt mt self esteem.
Les
Les
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Waluy
Member
I agree that red ink never hurt my self esteem but my wife is a licensed teacher (she stays at home and runs a daycare to be with our children now) but she was taught in college red ink was not to be used because it damaged children's self esteem so I don't think that was just one schools answer. Personally I think we need to teach children not to let other people affect their self esteem.
I agree -- I have three daughters who were educated to be teachers and they were all taught the same thing this goes back to the late 80s and early 90s.
sbell111
Member
So basically, what you are saying is that this isn't some wacky, granola eating administrator making a decision. This is something that has been taught to teachers for a quarter of a century and the admin was simply making sure that his teachers were complying with known good practices. That certainly puts a different face on this thread, in my opinion.
Note: if you wish to challenge whether I've properly used every word in this post, don't bother. I probably haven't and don't much care.
Note: if you wish to challenge whether I've properly used every word in this post, don't bother. I probably haven't and don't much care.
TellicoTurning
Member
In my elementary grades I mostly went to small schools where the teachers all knew my parents and would call them and tell them if there was a spanking at school. And I was more afraid of that spanking at home than the one in school.... so I didn't get them at school... I did toe the line very carefully....
lorbay
Member
TellicoTurning
Member
This particular post is about employees, but as the original opening post was about children... when I was raising my son, I was a single parent and made a number of arbitrary decisions, based on my opinion or perception of the situation, but I also allowed him to discuss - not back talk - the situation and if he came up with a convincing argument as to why or how the situation could be changed, I also listened and did on occasions change my mind... but if I perceived a danger to him in the situation, then I stuck to my guns. Today he is a very confident, self employed and highly motivated young man who is and will be very successful in his life.
sbell111
Member
I read the opening post as being about employees. An employer gave an instruction to an employee not to use a particular color pen.
sbell111
Member
I feel like this post didn't get the attention that it deserved.
I question as to why some people believe that it has to be one or the other. I am not seeing how changing the color of a grading pen degrades a student's acquisition of knowledge. If fact, I can imagine that doing so would enhance this acquisition if it is true that the red in was truly negatively effecting a child's self esteem. Avoiding that negative effect would presumably enhance the teacher's ability to cram more knowledge into that child's brain because the child would be more focused on what the teacher wrote and not the color with which it was written.
juteck
Member
Wow. In the workplace (or at least the place that signs my paycheck), red is still used for reviewing and marking and editing. It's really great when they use a fat red in-your-face sharpie. When I first started this career, there was a time when I believe the reviewer should have just had me re-print it on red paper. I'd much rather see a big bold edit or comment than a tiny little chicken scratch pencil marking that I'm likely to miss in the rush of a deadline.
Leatherman1998
Member
If they don't like red ink don't let them join the military. If you make a mistake in the USAF you will see red ink on every little thing.
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sbell111
Member
Kaspar
Member
Caveat: I live in a town with excellent public schools. I know many superb educators at all levels. I imprecate no one specifically, but rather the whole system.
True. But the current system doesn't even bother to take the psychology of boys into account. In some cases, it's openly hostile to them. The schools have been, for want of a better term, feminized, that is oriented toward feminine goals and concerns (safety, getting along). Schools are nigh unto prisons for boys, and if they get out of line, we go Soviet on them, and drug them into quietude. To understand the differences between boys and girls, one might read this. Or if you like it with the bark on, this and this.
As for the rest, my educational policy can be summed up thus. Compulsory no further than grade 8. It is not necessary to teach math until grade 5 or 6, and unless you really have an aptitude for it, you should never have to take algebra or any other higher maths. It should be heavy on reading, writing and civics. By grade 8 you should be able to write a coherent paragraph, make change and know who your government representatives are. After that, education is a luxury for which you should pay for yourself. 70% of the people in college have no business being there. Anyone with the aptitude, but boys especially, should be given vocational training. (Boys learn well, hands on.) You should be able to start work when you're 14. Begin saving right away, be disciplined, develop a smart investment plan, and you'll retire a millionaire by 45 or 50. After that, if you want to learn a foreign language, study Goethe, computational hydrodynamics, music theory, Renaissance history, or basket weaving, hire a tutor. You'll have the money, and there'll be plenty of debt-saddled, wannabe professor college grads who'd love to teach you.
(And I just used the word "college"? Sorry, I meant "Academic Theme Parks.")
True. But the current system doesn't even bother to take the psychology of boys into account. In some cases, it's openly hostile to them. The schools have been, for want of a better term, feminized, that is oriented toward feminine goals and concerns (safety, getting along). Schools are nigh unto prisons for boys, and if they get out of line, we go Soviet on them, and drug them into quietude. To understand the differences between boys and girls, one might read this. Or if you like it with the bark on, this and this.
As for the rest, my educational policy can be summed up thus. Compulsory no further than grade 8. It is not necessary to teach math until grade 5 or 6, and unless you really have an aptitude for it, you should never have to take algebra or any other higher maths. It should be heavy on reading, writing and civics. By grade 8 you should be able to write a coherent paragraph, make change and know who your government representatives are. After that, education is a luxury for which you should pay for yourself. 70% of the people in college have no business being there. Anyone with the aptitude, but boys especially, should be given vocational training. (Boys learn well, hands on.) You should be able to start work when you're 14. Begin saving right away, be disciplined, develop a smart investment plan, and you'll retire a millionaire by 45 or 50. After that, if you want to learn a foreign language, study Goethe, computational hydrodynamics, music theory, Renaissance history, or basket weaving, hire a tutor. You'll have the money, and there'll be plenty of debt-saddled, wannabe professor college grads who'd love to teach you.
(And I just used the word "college"? Sorry, I meant "Academic Theme Parks.")
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Mason Kuettel
Member
As a teacher I have heard many different discussions about this very topic. Do I agree with the "self-esteem" reasoning, NO. Do I agree with the idea that I should do my best to boost a child's self-esteem, NO. What I do agree with is that it is a very little thing for me to pick up a blue marker (which stands out rather nicely from the black writing) instead of a red pen just to keep from having this conversation once or twice a year with a "helicopter parent."
Kids are handled very differently now than they were when I was in school (I'm only 32) but, with that being said, I was handled very differently than when my parents were in school. Things change...we ALL must get over that and move on. I, for one, will choose to worry about things much more important than ink color or "self-esteem" issues.
Kids are handled very differently now than they were when I was in school (I'm only 32) but, with that being said, I was handled very differently than when my parents were in school. Things change...we ALL must get over that and move on. I, for one, will choose to worry about things much more important than ink color or "self-esteem" issues.
1. I can't speak for anyone else but NO that is not what I am saying.
2. Nor have I said anything that implies that's what I think.
3.Nor would I agree that because something is taught in college it is a "known good practice". In fact, I think that most colleges conferring degrees in education are following a lousey method using "How to teach XYZ" rather than teaching XYZ. leaving us with too many teachers not really knowing the subjects they are teaching. This is not a reflection on or a critism of the teachers, it isn't their fault.
And No I don't agree that it puts a different face on the thread. Other than that I don't see much wrong with your response.
BTW what I think is that if seeing papers corrected in red ink "hurts" the self-esteem of students it is because we (we being society) have taught them to be hurt by it. They were not born with the thought in their head that red marks on a paper makes them a lesser person.
I also think some of our school systems have put in place policies that are just flat stupid and if they have any impact on education it is negative.
I also believe that like war being too important to be left in the hands of generals, education is too important to leave in the hands of educators - which includes most administrators of education (at all levels) who if you talk to them will tell you they are educators.
And I don't think there is anything to indicate that employees of the Federal Government (read regulators) are smart enough to improve education by imposing their ideas on all of us.
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anthonyd
Member
I have been a teacher for over 25 years and still use red ink. I use a fountain pen to grade papers and I also use other ink colours (Canadian spelling). The arguments about red ink make me laugh. I choose the colour that I feel like choosing and have never had a complaint.
Tony
Tony
sbell111
Member
Why does it matter how the thought 'entered their heads'? If red ink has that effect (or is even believed to have that effect on a few), what's the problem with simply using a different color ink? Did you happen to read the blog post that I linked? I really feel that there was good stuff there that would add to this conversation for those that are truly interested in this subject. I especially like that he took a basic psychological look at the issue.
I didn't reply to the stuff that seemed that you were just disagreeing with me to disagree with me and the stuff that wasn't really on topic to this thread in order to not get the conversation bogged down.
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sbell111
Member
Given that the OP never suggested that teachers not fairly and accurately mark down papers, None of that has anything to do with this thread or matches what I have actually witnessed. All of your opinion as to the general state of education and whether your grand kids were passed when they deserved to fail seems off topic to this thread.
It should also be noted that I apparently misread the OP initially. I took it to be that an administrator told the teacher not to use red pen and that the teacher disagreed with the decision. Instead, it appears that the teacher agrees that red ink aught not be used and may or may jot have been told that by an admin, read about it in the literature, learned either in college or via continuing education, et al.
The idea that old concepts must be rigidly followed, regardless of the reasons behind them, flies in the face of innovation.
What's the harm in trying a different pen colour? I think many Asian cultures dislike red ink, as it's considered offensive. Since Asia consistently scores higher than the US in education standards and scores, it's not so radical a concept as it's being made out to be in this thread.
(granted, that's not the only difference in the education standards - but it's a valid point)
What's the harm in trying a different pen colour? I think many Asian cultures dislike red ink, as it's considered offensive. Since Asia consistently scores higher than the US in education standards and scores, it's not so radical a concept as it's being made out to be in this thread.
(granted, that's not the only difference in the education standards - but it's a valid point)I did not say that trying a different pen color had any harm associated with it. What I said is: If students think that the pen color used implies something about them (students) it is because we taught them to think that. I have also said that I believe we (in too many cases) are making things like the color of the ink used and the smiley faces more important to the students/parents than the comments. I think both are relavent to this discussion.The idea that old concepts must be rigidly followed, regardless of the reasons behind them, flies in the face of innovation.
What's the harm in trying a different pen colour? I think many Asian cultures dislike red ink, as it's considered offensive. Since Asia consistently scores higher than the US in education standards and scores, it's not so radical a concept as it's being made out to be in this thread.
I have referred to the past because when I was being educated most teachers used red pencil to correct papers, mark grades and make comments on assignments. If I got an A it was in red, if I got an E it was in red, if the teacher said "excellent paper" it was in red, if the teacher said "not acceptable rewrite" it was in red. Students knew that everything they saw on their paper was going to be red and it meant nothing other than it was easy to spot what the teacher had added to the paper. It could have been green, blue, or about any other color (except #2 or 3 pencil color) and accomplished the same thing. It is not a dedication to red or an opposition to change of color that is affecting my thinking. It an opposition to the change in attitude that says the color of the comments has become more than just a method to make the comments stand out and easily found it has become more important to many people than the comments themselves.
I am certainly not opposed to to innovation, I made my living and enjoy my retirement because I was a part of the most innovative industry that has ever existed. But I also recognize that all change is not innovation.
sbell111
Member
It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.
sbwertz
Member
The following quote from that blog illustrates what I have been trying to say.
" The idea that grading work should be about spotting mistakes and correcting errors is a very narrow one. "
This is what my daughter is having to deal with. Not just that she is not allowed to use red ink, but that somehow it is WRONG to point out errors. It is not just that she is not supposed to use red ink, but that she is discouraged from indicating errors in her student's writing.
sbell111
Member
But that isn't what you stated. If she is being told not to actually correct her students' work, that's a real issue. If she has simply been told not to use red, as the thread's title and the OP stated, that's not. I hope that it's not just the impression that you have gotten because she has been asked not to use red.
sbwertz
Member
No. We have discussed this in depth. She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling. These are HONOR students, about to enter college.
sbell111
Member
I'm thinking that if they are honor students about to go to college, that they are probably pretty set as far as grammar, punctuation, and spelling are concerned.
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My wife teaches High school and she asked me to make one for her, they use red ink there. Sometimes I think this world is getting to politically correct.
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