Tap and die?

[Hippie3180]

This is a question for those that currently make kit less I've read some threads on here about single start vs. triple start. There are a LOT of opinions. I'm seriously looking into a tap and die, and I understand single start will always line up your pattern, but with several twists of the threads, triple start requires less twists to close your pen. Single start tap and die cost less than triple start also, but I think that most kit less folks use triple start…right?

I do like a chunkier pen..just me preference I don't know if that has any bearing on things.

Please keep in mind this is not my area of expertise, I'm going to have to learn the ins and outs of threads. Please use layman's terms for me in your replies.

I need advice form the kit less crowd.

 

[target64]

Seems like you have a good handle on things here. Single start = slower and less expensive. Triple start = fast and expensive.

 

[target64]

I personally started slow and cheap. This has a couple of benefits. If you screw up the tooling no great loss. If you do not want to go deep into the Kitless area the it is less expensive.

 

[Hippie3180]

I was kind of leaning that way because I can always opt for triple start later. I thought single start being less expensive might be a good practice tap and die.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I have both but as of yet have never used the triple start tap and die. I make my pens so the third twist will remove the cap. If you want less make the threaded end shorter. The more important thing is to get good taps and dies. A cheap set of hexagonal ones will just cause you pain and sorrow.

 

[Hippie3180]

I have both but as of yet have never used the triple start tap and die. I make my pens so the third twist will remove the cap. If you want less make the threaded end shorter. The more important thing is to get good taps and dies. A cheap set of hexagonal ones will just cause you pain and sorrow.

So does this have to do with how long you make your tenon really?

 

[Displaced Canadian]

So does this have to do with how long you make your tenon really?

Yes. Shorter tenon, less threads.

 

[rherrell]

I have both but as of yet have never used the triple start tap and die. I make my pens so the third twist will remove the cap. If you want less make the threaded end shorter. The more important thing is to get good taps and dies. A cheap set of hexagonal ones will just cause you pain and sorrow.

Hexagonal dies are for "chasing" existing threads, they're not meant for making new threads.

A lot of folks struggle with the diameter of the tenon needed for a particular thread pitch, if you use the "10% of Pitch" formula it will help to get you in the ballpark.

Example...

1/2"x 20tpi...

To get the pitch divide 1 by 20 = .050" ( Whatever the tpi is, divide 1 by that number, if you're using metric threads just multiply the pitch by 10%)

10% x .050" = .005"

Deduct .005" from the nominal thread diameter

.500"-.005" = .495"

Make your tenon .495"

If you single point your threads you can make your tenon the nominal diameter, in this case .500". If you use a threading die you should deduct a little bit.

 

[jttheclockman]

Now I am not a kitless pen maker but do see the advantage of a triple start VS a single start thread. You would have more trouble trying to line up patterns of grain as well as segmented patterns with a single start thread as opposed to a triple start. This is because unless there is a method to actually align your blank to where you want the threads to start exactly then it is a crap shoot I would think. As I said I do not make these type pens so can be way off here and then take my advice with a grain a salt but I would question it further before you commit.

 

[Hippie3180]

Hexagonal dies are for "chasing" existing threads, they're not meant for making new threads.

A lot of folks struggle with the diameter of the tenon needed for a particular thread pitch, if you use the "10% of Pitch" formula it will help to get you in the ballpark.

Example...

1/2"x 20tpi...

To get the pitch divide 1 by 20 = .050" ( Whatever the tpi is, divide 1 by that number, if you're using metric threads just multiply the pitch by 10%)

10% x .050" = .005"

Deduct .005" from the nominal thread diameter

.500"-.005" = .495"

Make your tenon .495"

If you single point your threads you can make your tenon the nominal diameter, in this case .500". If you use a threading die you should deduct a little bit.

Thank you for your input Rick.

 

[rherrell]

I forgot to mention something very important, my example is for metal, if you're threading plastic you could probably get away with deducting 5% instead of 10%.

 

[RichAldrich]

I have both but as of yet have never used the triple start tap and die. I make my pens so the third twist will remove the cap. If you want less make the threaded end shorter. The more important thing is to get good taps and dies. A cheap set of hexagonal ones will just cause you pain and sorrow.

I did a PITH with displaced. The fountain he made used a single start. Looks really good. Comes off in 3 turns. Use what you have.

 

[its_virgil]

Barry Gross at BGartforms has a set of tools needed to make a kitless pen. The threading is single lead but the complete set is comparable or less expensive than a triple lead tap and die only. Check it out. Currently out of stock so keep checking back. I'm not affiliated with Barry's business. He is just a great personal friend and teacher. Worth checking out.

Kitless Pen Products

Here you will find all the necessary products to make a "Kitless Pen."

www.bgartforms.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Hippie3180]

Barry Gross at BGartforms has a set of tools needed to make a kitless pen. The threading is single lead but the complete set is comparable or less expensive than a triple lead tap and die only. Check it out. Currently out of stock so keep checking back. I'm not affiliated with Barry's business. He is just a great personal friend and teacher. Worth checking out.

Kitless Pen Products

Here you will find all the necessary products to make a "Kitless Pen."

www.bgartforms.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Thank you sir, I took a look, and it certainly looks like an option. I contacted him via email to see when he might have the set back in stock.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

What if you aim to make a pen with a grain/pattern allignment; isnt a single thread tap and die the proper way to go? I mean a pen made like that will be alligned no matter what (?).

 

[Displaced Canadian]

What if you aim to make a pen with a grain/pattern allignment; isnt a single thread tap and die the proper way to go? I mean a pen made like that will be alligned no matter what (?).

Single threads will make it more consistent. The issue with lining up patterns on kitless pens is you cut the blank, thread both ends so you can put them back together and there is basically about 3/4 of an inch missing out of the grain or pattern. You can get it oriented the same way but it will never be perfect. I wouldn't say it's a problem, just something to keep in mind.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

Single threads will make it more consistent. The issue with lining up patterns on kitless pens is you cut the blank, thread both ends so you can put them back together and there is basically about 3/4 of an inch missing out of the grain or pattern. You can get it oriented the same way but it will never be perfect. I wouldn't say it's a problem, just something to keep in mind.

I was thinking about making the threaded part fit like a lining and dress it with wood so that there is no material missing and the grain continuation is 100% true

 

[ProSingulisArts]

The pattern can still be lined up with triple start, it just only lines up on 1 in 3 starts. Like folks said here usually the issue is the "missing" 3/4 of an inch or so of pattern. This can be gotten around if you use a different material on the body tenon. I've made the tenon a separate part that threads into the body from a complimentary material. If the pattern is essential to your design that is one way to go.

 

[Aurelius]

In my experience, the single- vs. triple-start argument boils down to who your target market is. It seems that among enthusiast, having to turn more than about a turn an a half to uncap their pen can be a dealbreaker. Similarly, the triple start allows for shorter threaded areas which a lot of people (rightfully or wrongfully) associate with a higher end, more refined product.
Personally, I jumped in with triple starts because I got in on the group buy and the price was fairly reasonable.
If you really want to go nuts, and aligning blanks is a concern, you can also go with double- or quad-starts that will ensure alignment though they will usually be more expensive that triples because they are less common.