stop making the same pens as me

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Rchan63

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I just got a PM from a woodworker on another woodworking forum. Last week I did a show and another woodworker was there. We meet last year and he showed me some of the stuff he made and we talked a little.
Well this year we are both there again and well I'll let you read his PM to me.


HIM:
After thinking about this during the past week, I decided that the best thing would be to write to you directly and tell you how I felt at last week's craft fair. Last year, when we talked at the Fair, we discussed that you needed to increase your offerings if you were going to be successful at the fairs. I showed you the items that I sell as an example. With the whole world of woodworking items at your fingertips, I was aghast to see that you had copied my two items that I had showed you. While I understand that these items are not subject to copy write laws, I believe that your actions were really quite unethical.
I understand that you are planning to work other craft fairs, and to the extent that we are working some of the same fairs, I would ask that you find other items to build and sell, rather than copying my items

ME: I think you are taking it the wrong way if you remember I did have (blank) and other non pen related items. I just didn't have as many as you had. I had a couple of(blank) + a couple of (blank). I been making it for over 3 years.
I had always made them out of walnut and maple and if I remember correctly you have them only in maple. I will admit the (blank) thing I got from you. If I see you at the same show with the same design I will pull them from my display.

Food for thought: If I see another pen turner at the same show should I aproach them and say you shouldn't be selling the same pens as me cause I'm here?


HIM:
As for your pen question....if they were identical, and he KNEW you were selling the same thing, same style, same wood, then yes!

OK you guys and gals. I have dibs on all pens and the materials for pen making.


What do you think am I unethical?
 
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Regardless hand crafted items like we make are not identical no matter what he thinks. How many here make JR Gents, Baron's, Sierra's etc and for someone to say quit making the same thing because I make them, if that were true none of us here would be able to make anything after the first one made by someone else shows up. Cartridge Pens are a good example, PC Pens, and on and on. Each of us prides ourselves with creating custom objects and though I may use the same components and the same wood mine are different regardless of what anyone thinks. IMHO this took a lot of gall for him to say and write. jmho
 
Thats just like 2 woodturners that only turn bowls, and they both make a bowl out of walnut, and 1 tells the other that he cant make a bowl out of walnut because he already makes one and sells it at this show. Noone has dibs on any item. Hes got a lot of gall saying something like that.
 
Personally, I would make two new items, and give them to him as gifts:

I would make a nice box to hold all of his tissues so he could dry his tears, and a nice wooden mallet to help him remove the chip from his shoulder.

Now, having said that, I have been told on occasion that I have a somewhat sarcastic attitude, and tend to be a smart a$$.
 
It is a free country. I would not ask that of him. Maybe he needs to find a way to truly make his product unique something that can not be easily mimicked. Then he will have firmer ground to stand on but it will still be a bit shaky.
 
Personally, I think he is a pompous curmudgeon! Not only is it ethical that you make the same stuff, it is encouraged. IF, the fair said only 1 person per type of item in the show and you got into the show with something else then pulled them out... THAT would be unethical.
 
It is a slightly complicated issue. If I did shows and a second woodworker did the same circuit I would try to make my products distinctly different so to limit the direct competition. However with both being woodworkers there is bound to be some overlap. If you are intentionally trying to copy him then you would be wrong. If you both use one of the same style kit that is just life. If you made 100 pens and I made 100 pens even though we have never met I would bet my breakfast that there would be at least 1 pen that was the same.
 
Well he was complaining about two items and one I was already making and I offer to make a different design for the 2nd item and offered if we're both in the same show and have the same design I would pull it off by display.

Displaced Canadian said:
It is a slightly complicated issue. If I did shows and a second woodworker did the same circuit I would try to make my products distinctly different so to limit the direct competition. However with both being woodworkers there is bound to be some overlap. If you are intentionally trying to copy him then you would be wrong. If you both use one of the same style kit that is just life. If you made 100 pens and I made 100 pens even though we have never met I would bet my breakfast that there would be at least 1 pen that was the same.
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jnelson said:
Personally, I would make two new items, and give them to him as gifts:

I would make a nice box to hold all of his tissues so he could dry his tears, and a nice wooden mallet to help him remove the chip from his shoulder.

Now, having said that, I have been told on occasion that I have a somewhat sarcastic attitude, and tend to be a smart a$$.
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I like this one and would use Maple!!!!
 
I would say to heck with him! Even large corporations tend to borrow so called secrets to enhance their products
 
snyiper said:
jnelson said:
Personally, I would make two new items, and give them to him as gifts:

I would make a nice box to hold all of his tissues so he could dry his tears, and a nice wooden mallet to help him remove the chip from his shoulder.

Now, having said that, I have been told on occasion that I have a somewhat sarcastic attitude, and tend to be a smart a$$.
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I like this one and would use Maple!!!!
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I make mine out of maple.....You have to pull yours and make them out of something else.
 
The real trick is to come up with something he hasn't yet considered. It's tough to do, but you'll have a better market and be able to increase pricing if you can do that. Find a niche and fill it.
 
I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes:). Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.
 
It doesn't matter whether he is a better woodturner than you. It's a free country and it sounds like he doesn't want any competition. The next time you are both in the same show, give him a "free" box of tissues!:wink:
 
Rich, if you need a hand, I am willing to show up at the show and set up with you. I have over 1000 pens in stock and we can tell him to not make anything that resembles anything we make.....LOL... Some of these people at the shows need to remember that they didn't invent this art and I personally like it when there is another turner at a show, just makes my stuff look better (usually).
 
Common items

Personally, I'd ignore him. Craft shows tend to be populated with many identical or almost identical items - whatever is popular at the moment. If you go to them you should expect someone else to be selling the same or nearly the same stuff unless the show specifically takes steps to prevent it.

A few years ago when I went to craft shows there would be wood items for sale - hutches, wall cabinets, coat hangers, time out chairs, etc. There might be half a dozen folks selling them....most of them looked like the came from the same place and they all had cute little hearts cut out somewhere. The last time I went it was stars. Personally I doubt that most of the "crafters" were even making their own. I saw more than one tiny sticker that said "Made in China" or "Made in India" or some other third world country.
 
So we have kits that are mass produced. Bushings that are mass produced within particular tolerances for a particular kit. All are designed, regardless of minute artistic liberties, different materials, all will make the same damn pen.
That guy is a schmuck. Don't even justify his letter by return correspondence of any length except for a post card with "Whatever" written on it.
 
Two guys making the same things out of the same materials and selling them at the same show is called competition and its extremely healthy IMHO
 
You could also try to work with him, and try to offer different items so your prices aren't easily compared. If both of you are selling a Walnut Jr. Gent II but your price is twice his then it could hurt both of you. See if you can agree that only you will sell kit X and him kit Y, sure there will be some over lap but it could help the both of you. Maybe one of you focus on acrylic and the other wood? if he's been around a lot longer you may need to work with him to some degree.

AK
 
Andrew_K99 said:
You could also try to work with him, and try to offer different items so your prices aren't easily compared. If both of you are selling a Walnut Jr. Gent II but your price is twice his then it could hurt both of you. See if you can agree that only you will sell kit X and him kit Y, sure there will be some over lap but it could help the both of you. Maybe one of you focus on acrylic and the other wood? if he's been around a lot longer you may need to work with him to some degree.

AK
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Just curious Andrew, what would you suggest happen if there were one or two more pen turners at the next show, and again after that? I somehow don't see how an agreement will work out when the dynamics can easily change.
 
Post a sign in front of the <blank> saying "New and Inproved!" or "Don't settle for second best (three tables over)!"
 
There really isn't enough information to call it either way.

BSea said:
I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes:). Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.
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That hits the nail on the head.

Maybe I should market a Woodchuck Pen Pro, and call it a ghostrider Pen Pro, or maybe I should market my very own "Tru-Quater Blanks".

I'll put them right next to my versions of the Russ-Line, and Fat-Line pens.

Funny how greed can pollute things.

People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas.

As long as it's not in my back yard.
 
Personally, I have never seen two pieces of Gods wood creations with exactly the same grain pattern or two of Jonothans Polyester Resin creations with exactly the same swirl pattern. I feel if it could be done, those are the two who could do it, and NO, I am NOT sacroreligiously equating Jonothan to God. Let the man step back to the end of IAP membership roll, become member 11,000 or whatever and just try to make anything that one of us has not made something similar to. CASE CLOSED!
 
ghostrider said:
There really isn't enough information to call it either way.

BSea said:
I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes:). Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.
Click to expand...
That hits the nail on the head.

Maybe I should market a Woodchuck Pen Pro, and call it a ghostrider Pen Pro, or maybe I should market my very own "Tru-Quater Blanks".

I'll put them right next to my versions of the Russ-Line, and Fat-Line pens.

Funny how greed can pollute things.

People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas.

As long as it's not in my back yard.
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Who said anything about stealing ideas. The only person accusing anybody is this guy accusing Richard, who thinks he owns things and he also doesnt say ideas, he says items, so this leads one to believe that he has the same items as the other guy( they bought the same pen Kits or whatever) which they can both buy, maybe even from the same supplier, and Richard said that he was already making the same item as the other guy, but he was actually making them in 2 woods rather than 1. We are talking about store bought items that they can both aquire. You are talking about 1 man who made a great product, who pushed it for years and then had someone try to steal the name of his product out right. Not even in the same realm. Or the Tru-quarters. Different realm. Maybe you should ask Richard exactly what he was selling so you can make a better assumption, as you said in your first line that you didnt have enough information to call it either way. Sure seems like you are accusing him of stealing.
 
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Well I have to apologize, I didn't really think it matter what was made. But to clearifly he is disbuting about how he made cutting board and wine bottle balancer. You all seen it it's made from a piece of wood with a hole drill on the top and the bottom with a 45 dergree. He thought it was inappropriate for me to make and sell.
What I told him was I don't think it was his original idea and he don't own the rights to it.
 
Rchan63 said:
Well I have to apologize, I didn't really think it matter what was made. But to clearifly he is disbuting about how he made cutting board and wine bottle balancer. You all seen it it's made from a piece of wood with a hole drill on the top and the bottom with a 45 dergree. He thought it was inappropriate for me to make and sell.
What I told him was I don't think it was his original idea and he don't own the rights to it.
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Thanks Richard. It didnt matter, but that clears it all up. He didnt come up with that idea, so he has no right to ask you not to make it. And a cutting board, he didnt come up with that i know, otherwise he's like a 1000 years old. If he didnt show that to you and you saw it from someone else the next day and started to make them, he probably still would have asked you not to make them, just seems like that kind of guy. He doesnt want the competion. He also might think that yours were better and felt a little inferior, so he felt the need to say something.
 
I agree with these other people. They sell the plans on line for cutting boards and wine balancers so anyone can make them. The area I am afraid of offending anybody is in making decal pens. I see a lot of great ideas on here, but am worried about duplicating them. For instance the ones with dog tag designes. I live in a military populated area and these would sell well. I just don't want to infringe on anyones idea.
 
Dog Tags ----

navycop said:
I agree with these other people. They sell the plans on line for cutting boards and wine balancers so anyone can make them. The area I am afraid of offending anybody is in making decal pens. I see a lot of great ideas on here, but am worried about duplicating them. For instance the ones with dog tag designes. I live in a military populated area and these would sell well. I just don't want to infringe on anyones idea.
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Nothing new about adapting dog tags to all kinds of things - they were doing that at least 50 years ago - somebody in the family still has mine which were inlaid into a block of wood to make a paper weight....that would have been 1960 at the latest.
 
Hey Richard,
I make a wine bottle stand like this... I don't want you to copy it or sell it at any show where I might be selling mine.... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I use all kinds of woods, so you can't make them from different wood either...:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

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It is a free country and free speech. The other fellow can say what he wants but that does not give him exclusive rights to anything. Look at the pens posted here. Most new ones are copied many times over in the next few days. Some are better and some are worse but all are inspired by the first. The other wood worker should be flattered that you copied or improved on his work.
 
TellicoTurning said:
Hey Richard,
I make a wine bottle stand like this... I don't want you to copy it or sell it at any show where I might be selling mine.... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I use all kinds of woods, so you can make them from different wood either...:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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You have any dimmension or instructions?:biggrin: I promise to stay away from TN
 
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Rchan63 said:
TellicoTurning said:
Hey Richard,
I make a wine bottle stand like this... I don't want you to copy it or sell it at any show where I might be selling mine.... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I use all kinds of woods, so you can make them from different wood either...:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Click to expand...

You have any dimmension or instructions?:biggrin: I promise to stay away from TN
Click to expand...

I need to go out to my shop... (tomorrow, it's dark as a dungeon outside now)... and I'll get the book that I made these from and give you all the details...
 
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Infringement

Mike, you are NOT infringing on anyone. Go 4 it!!!
They should be spending their time Thanking you for your service, NOT bit**ing about your chosen patterns for items that would bring joy into someone elses life! GO FOR IT !!!!!!!

///
navycop said:
I agree with these other people. They sell the plans on line for cutting boards and wine balancers so anyone can make them. The area I am afraid of offending anybody is in making decal pens. I see a lot of great ideas on here, but am worried about duplicating them. For instance the ones with dog tag designes. I live in a military populated area and these would sell well. I just don't want to infringe on anyones idea.
Click to expand...
 
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