stop making the same pens as me

[arioux]

Hey Richard,
I make a wine bottle stand like this... I don't want you to copy it or sell it at any show where I might be selling mine.... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I use all kinds of woods, so you can make them from different wood either...:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

You have any dimmension or instructions?:biggrin: I promise to stay away from TN

look a this thread

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=87159

Post #7

 

[ghostrider]

There really isn't enough information to call it either way.

I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes. Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.

That hits the nail on the head.

Maybe I should market a Woodchuck Pen Pro, and call it a ghostrider Pen Pro, or maybe I should market my very own "Tru-Quater Blanks".

I'll put them right next to my versions of the Russ-Line, and Fat-Line pens.

Funny how greed can pollute things.

People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas.

As long as it's not in my back yard.

Who said anything about stealing ideas.

Your misunderstanding my post.

The only person accusing anybody is this guy accusing Richard, who thinks he owns things and he also doesnt say ideas, he says items, so this leads one to believe that he has the same items as the other guy( they bought the same pen Kits or whatever) which they can both buy, maybe even from the same supplier, and Richard said that he was already making the same item as the other guy, but he was actually making them in 2 woods rather than 1.

Richards post was pretty generic, so I didn't see anything about that in it. That's why I said "not enough info".

We are talking about store bought items that they can both aquire.

That's what it sounds like a lot of people in this thread think, but again, Richard left out such details. I simply didn't assume that he was referring to what you reference.

You are talking about 1 man who made a great product, who pushed it for years and then had someone try to steal the name of his product out right. Not even in the same realm. Or the Tru-quarters. Different realm. Maybe you should ask Richard exactly what he was selling so you can make a better assumption,

I made no assumption. Richard didn't distinguish between an idea or item, other than to say that he did get that "thing" from the guy. The only people I saw who equated it to anything were others in this thread. I simply chose to not make such an assumption, which is why I qualified my post with the initial sentence.

as you said in your first line that you didnt have enough information to call it either way.

Which is precisely why I didn't.

Sure seems like you are accusing him of stealing.

I don't know how you can get that from, "Not enough information to go on." Like I said, you misunderstood my post.

At that time, I had no idea what Richard did that cause the man to, "cry foul!". He claimed to have been making one of the items for years, and admitted to getting one, "thing..." from him.

My comment about the "stealing ideas" was not meant for Richard, since I knew there wasn't enough info , but how quick people were to defend someone without that info. It was also a reference to the widespread use of copyrighted material among this community as a whole (Not just IAP). I admit it may have been a little out of context, but I thought it did correspond with the tone of defending an unknown action (Richard had not revealed the nature of the offense). That's the way I saw it, and if I'm wrong so be it. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


I think if you take the entire post (My previous post), you should see that I wasn't pointing out that I didn't know about Richard's prediciment, and also that I was commenting on the quoted post. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


BTW:

Love the kitless work you've been doing.

 

[Daniel]

If you are talking about simply making a certain style pen with a certain type of wood. Then I would tell the guy sorry but there is not anything there to be protecting. I tend to put very subtle touches to my pens that make them flow better to my eye and are more pleasing to me. When I post photos of them I tend to see that same shape or touch added to others work. I don't consider this stealing my work because it is something that very likely appealed to them as it did me and is not anything that is not almost obvious to me anyway. I doubt many of them ever saw my pens. Now if I where to make something with a significant degree of customizing then yes it would eventually cross that line of taking my ideas. Still I don't personally care but others do. I have tried to copy some of the pens I have seen here but never try to sell them. for me that is just wrong. But a so and so pen in walnut?? give me a break. If someone approached me about something that simple I would simply tell them to find something to make that they did not need to be so concerned about competition.

 

[ribanett]

Dog Tags

I agree with these other people. They sell the plans on line for cutting boards and wine balancers so anyone can make them. The area I am afraid of offending anybody is in making decal pens. I see a lot of great ideas on here, but am worried about duplicating them. For instance the ones with dog tag designes. I live in a military populated area and these would sell well. I just don't want to infringe on anyones idea.

Mike,

I believe I was the first to post about putting a dog tag image on a rifle cartridge. The dog tag is just a background to hold the images and text I apply to it. GO FOR IT!! There is money to be made.

If you think of the whole military market (Army, AF, Navy, Marines, National Guard, Air National Guard and Reserves), and 1000 turners made imaged cartridge pens, I think only a dent would be made in the avaiable market.

 

[Rchan63]

Everyone calm down please, I didn't mean to get anyone upset. I didn't copy someones life long design and hard work, it was only a wine balancer and it's all over the internet. I took the easiest design cause I'm lazy. As for the cutting board it's a cutting board. How many design can they be? I made strips out of walnut and maple and glued them together. Anyone who want to make them please do and you can even sell them in the shows I'm in. It's no big deal.
The Show before this last Saturday I had 2 other vendor selling the same cutting boards. You think I should tell them to go home because I'm selling here.

 

[ghostrider]

Everyone calm down please, I didn't mean to get anyone upset. I didn't copy someones life long design and hard work, it was only a wine balancer and it's all over the internet. I took the easiest design cause I'm lazy. As for the cutting board it's a cutting board. How many design can they be? I made strips out of walnut and maple and glued them together. Anyone who want to make them please do and you can even sell them in the shows I'm in. It's no big deal.
The Show before this last Saturday I had 2 other vendor selling the same cutting boards. You think I should tell them to go home because I'm selling here.

Walnut and Maple?

I think my sister did something like that in Jr. High.

Doesn't sound like you copied anything that he might claim as intellectual property.

There's probably another guy on another forum complaining about this new guy at a show that stole his idea after he tried to be nice to him.

 

[Timebandit]

There really isn't enough information to call it either way.

I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes. Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.

That hits the nail on the head.

Maybe I should market a Woodchuck Pen Pro, and call it a ghostrider Pen Pro, or maybe I should market my very own "Tru-Quater Blanks".

I'll put them right next to my versions of the Russ-Line, and Fat-Line pens.

Funny how greed can pollute things.

People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas.

As long as it's not in my back yard.

Who said anything about stealing ideas.

Your misunderstanding my post.

The only person accusing anybody is this guy accusing Richard, who thinks he owns things and he also doesnt say ideas, he says items, so this leads one to believe that he has the same items as the other guy( they bought the same pen Kits or whatever) which they can both buy, maybe even from the same supplier, and Richard said that he was already making the same item as the other guy, but he was actually making them in 2 woods rather than 1.

Richards post was pretty generic, so I didn't see anything about that in it. That's why I said "not enough info".

We are talking about store bought items that they can both aquire.

That's what it sounds like a lot of people in this thread think, but again, Richard left out such details. I simply didn't assume that he was referring to what you reference.

You are talking about 1 man who made a great product, who pushed it for years and then had someone try to steal the name of his product out right. Not even in the same realm. Or the Tru-quarters. Different realm. Maybe you should ask Richard exactly what he was selling so you can make a better assumption,

I made no assumption. Richard didn't distinguish between an idea or item, other than to say that he did get that "thing" from the guy. The only people I saw who equated it to anything were others in this thread. I simply chose to not make such an assumption, which is why I qualified my post with the initial sentence.

as you said in your first line that you didnt have enough information to call it either way.

Which is precisely why I didn't.

Sure seems like you are accusing him of stealing.

I don't know how you can get that from, "Not enough information to go on." Like I said, you misunderstood my post.

At that time, I had no idea what Richard did that cause the man to, "cry foul!". He claimed to have been making one of the items for years, and admitted to getting one, "thing..." from him.

My comment about the "stealing ideas" was not meant for Richard, since I knew there wasn't enough info , but how quick people were to defend someone without that info. It was also a reference to the widespread use of copyrighted material among this community as a whole (Not just IAP). I admit it may have been a little out of context, but I thought it did correspond with the tone of defending an unknown action (Richard had not revealed the nature of the offense). That's the way I saw it, and if I'm wrong so be it. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


I think if you take the entire post (My previous post), you should see that I wasn't pointing out that I didn't know about Richard's prediciment, and also that I was commenting on the quoted post. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


BTW:

Love the kitless work you've been doing.

Man that must have taken a long time to break up my post like that:biggrin:

Your right. It was this line that you said that got me "People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas", which to me sounded like you were accusing him of stealing ideas.

Thanks for clearing that up.

And thanks for the compliment on the pens:biggrin:

 

[ghostrider]

There really isn't enough information to call it either way.

I take a somewhat different view (maybe). You don't really identify the items, and from what I've read, it sounds sort of like you are making the same pen model out of the same wood. To me that's not copying.

Now I use this as an example. Let's say I was talking to someone on this forum that makes pens using cut out state quarters. And I was visiting his booth, and he told me to expand my offerings. I don't think it would be ethical to copy his idea (like I could :bulgy-eyes. Legally, it's probably ok. But there is a difference in what is legal, and what is ethical.

Just my 2¢.

That hits the nail on the head.

Maybe I should market a Woodchuck Pen Pro, and call it a ghostrider Pen Pro, or maybe I should market my very own "Tru-Quater Blanks".

I'll put them right next to my versions of the Russ-Line, and Fat-Line pens.

Funny how greed can pollute things.

People on this forum get downright hostile when someone copies a product like the Pen Pro, but it's okay to steal other people's ideas.

As long as it's not in my back yard.

Who said anything about stealing ideas.

Your misunderstanding my post.

The only person accusing anybody is this guy accusing Richard, who thinks he owns things and he also doesnt say ideas, he says items, so this leads one to believe that he has the same items as the other guy( they bought the same pen Kits or whatever) which they can both buy, maybe even from the same supplier, and Richard said that he was already making the same item as the other guy, but he was actually making them in 2 woods rather than 1.

Richards post was pretty generic, so I didn't see anything about that in it. That's why I said "not enough info".

We are talking about store bought items that they can both aquire.

That's what it sounds like a lot of people in this thread think, but again, Richard left out such details. I simply didn't assume that he was referring to what you reference.

You are talking about 1 man who made a great product, who pushed it for years and then had someone try to steal the name of his product out right. Not even in the same realm. Or the Tru-quarters. Different realm. Maybe you should ask Richard exactly what he was selling so you can make a better assumption,

I made no assumption. Richard didn't distinguish between an idea or item, other than to say that he did get that "thing" from the guy. The only people I saw who equated it to anything were others in this thread. I simply chose to not make such an assumption, which is why I qualified my post with the initial sentence.

as you said in your first line that you didnt have enough information to call it either way.

Which is precisely why I didn't.

Sure seems like you are accusing him of stealing.

I don't know how you can get that from, "Not enough information to go on." Like I said, you misunderstood my post.

At that time, I had no idea what Richard did that cause the man to, "cry foul!". He claimed to have been making one of the items for years, and admitted to getting one, "thing..." from him.

My comment about the "stealing ideas" was not meant for Richard, since I knew there wasn't enough info , but how quick people were to defend someone without that info. It was also a reference to the widespread use of copyrighted material among this community as a whole (Not just IAP). I admit it may have been a little out of context, but I thought it did correspond with the tone of defending an unknown action (Richard had not revealed the nature of the offense). That's the way I saw it, and if I'm wrong so be it. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


I think if you take the entire post (My previous post), you should see that I wasn't pointing out that I didn't know about Richard's prediciment, and also that I was commenting on the quoted post. Hopefully this makes it a little clearer.


BTW:

Love the kitless work you've been doing.

Man that must have taken a long time to break up my post like that:biggrin:
...

Cut N' Paste makes it easier:biggrin:. Besides, Time taken to mend fences and clear up misunderstandings is time well spent.

 

[ctubbs]

When we pen turners or whatever you call us, only make a few of one style pen, then we all loose out. Smitty was trying to offer limited orders of a few styles of pen kits that have become unavailable to the market due to the few sales across the market. The availability of these sets left simply due to the lack of sales of high end kits. Therefore if each of us decided to only use one pen kit and no one else were allowed to make that style, then is short order there would be no kits available for anyone. It is a simple matter of volume sales driving the availability of product for us all. The market will provide the product if there is a sale for the product at a profit. Otherwise, no product, no pens, no bottle ballancer, no anything. At this level the marked will determine who sells what. My $0.02 and with inflation, that just ain't much.
Charles

 

[TellicoTurning]

Hey Richard,
I make a wine bottle stand like this... I don't want you to copy it or sell it at any show where I might be selling mine....

I use all kinds of woods, so you can make them from different wood either...

You have any dimmension or instructions? I promise to stay away from TN[/quote]

I need to go out to my shop... (tomorrow, it's dark as a dungeon outside now)... and I'll get the book that I made these from and give you all the details...[/quote]


Richard,
Sorry to be late with reply... I had a show today and left the house before daylight and just got home a couple of hours ago...

I found these wine stands in a book by S. Gary Roberts... Masterful Woodturning These instructions are from the book...

This is turned in 4 pieces... the Base, the Ring, the Stem, and the Finial (this is an optional piece...)

The Base: Turn the base about 3" dia with an area thick enough to drill a 1/4" hole 3/8" deep at a 45 deg angle... You can be crative and free with the base, but the angle of the drille hole is critial and needs to be accurate.

The Stem: between centers turn the spindle into a 5/8" - to - 3/4" cylinder.measure and mark the ends 4 1/2" apart not including the tenon... outside the lines, turn a 1/4" diameter x 3/8" long tenon on each end.

The Ring:

This is the instructions Mr. Roberts wrote in his book: Turning the Ring: (quote) To turn the ring, a number of procedures are possible, I tried using a 1 3/8" hole and using a wood mandrel, which requires dismounting and reversing. I used a screw chuck, which worked well and allowed access to both sides of the ring.

But the easiest method is to band-saw the blank and mount it between a spur center and a live center. I used a ring tool I ground from a screw drive (as shown in the drawing). You can also use a 3/8" spindle gouge to shape the ring and part off with a parting tool.
After separation, use a 1" diameter drum sander mounted in a drill chuck to smooth out the center.
Drill 1/4" hole in the center of the edge of the ring on the end grain side. A good way to position the bit is to add a skew line to the ring while it is still in the lathe.
(unquote)

There are a number of ways to do the ring... Mr. Roberts talks about a couple in his book and I found the a little confusing... I'll put his instructions in this post, but the way I did my rings... I cut ring approximately round with the band saw... drilled the center with my drill press and a forstner bit at 1 3/8" diameter... I then put the ring on a pin chuck opened through the hole to hold it while I fixed the face and edges... after I got the ring to my satisfaction, I put a drum sander mounted on my drill press and smoothed the inside hole... some of my rings were a little larger and heavier than they should have been... the ring should be thick enough that you can crill a 1/4" hole in the side for the tenon on the stem...if it's too thick and heavy, you might have trouble with the balance of the stand. (DAMHIKT)

The Finial: This is a optional part... I used several and on a couple where the base was from a pretty dense wood, didn't put one in... turn the finial to your own design, add a 1/4" dia tenon on the bottom to glue into the center of the base... or opposite the stem at the same angle as the stem... your option.

Mr. Roberts suggested using CA to glue the parts together... I personally preferred using Titebond wood glue. Finish is your choice... Mr. Roberts used Deft clear... you could also use spray lacquer, wipe on poly or your choice...

 

[Grizz]

This is actually what happens when someone's pocketbook feels threatened.

As old as time itself. Don't sweat it.

 

[Rchan63]

Thank you Chuck for the detailed instructions

 

[Harold Epps]

I enjoy the competition when other pen turners show up at a Craft show
where I display. The turners I hang out with show each other how they
made each special pen they just created and tell us how they did it.

That includes myself. I have shown several Pen turmers how I made all
of the pens I show, and am proud when they make the same one.

I went to one show and there were 5 other Pen turners there. I said
to the host, great, bring on the competition. I out sold them four to one
and some never came back.

One good turn, gets most of the blanket.