Possible new finish

[terrymiller]

This post was also posted elsewhere I am not trying to get recognition just trying to get a finish that may be easier to use once it is dialed in. Hopefully this helps some people out. If someone has already done this and posted the steps please let me know before I do a whole big long tutorial. I started thinking about different finishes available and how they work then it dawned on me why could we not use the Plexiglas solution that we use to stabilize blanks so I gave it a shot.

Started out turned pen with whatever style you like.
Sanded upto about 600 grit.

At this point I took the Plexi solution that I had. The solution was about as thick as syrup to start. I tried the solution like this and did not work so I thinned this down to about a little thicker than thin CA. The solution was mixed in a squeeze bottle that came from sally's beauty supply.


With the lathe running at about 1800 rpm's I started applying the solution with the bottle and a folded paper towel. The first attempt I tried about 5 coats but during sanding sanded it all off. I settled on 10 coats. This seems like alot but remember that this a thin solution. This whole process took about 5-10 minutes tops. Very impressed with the drying time with this stuff seemed as though it was about the same as the thin CA.

After I built up what I felt was enough material I then started wet sanding at 1000 grit wet dry for a brief amount of time then moved all the way up through MM grits.

The finishing steps were to use a scratch removing compound. I used some stuff from Wally World GS-27 followed by Meguires car wax.


While I'm not trying to take away from Fangars finishing technique it comes with a steep learning curve. This finish seems to be fairly simple. The toughest part about it is finding the right consistency for the solution. I dont know how the finish will hold up over time. I would think that it should hold up fairly well do to the fact that it is plastic. If there are any questions I will try my best to answer them for you. Please feel free to experiment with this and keep everyone updated. Russ Fairfield said that he uses a similiar technique only he uses BLO to smooth it out while still wet.

This a photo of the finish on the first pen tried:

 

[jssmith3]

Hi Terry, great looking finish! I think your a really on to something. Were do you get this Plexiglas stuff? I have always stabalized my blanks with CA glue. I am always trying new stuff so would be interested in this finish and your tutorial. I do a lot of inlaying so I need a finish that is durable and long lasting.
Janet

 

[terrymiller]

Janet I make the solution. It is Plexiglas (Acrylic) dissolved in acetone. I made a big batch a while back keep it in a gallon paint can. I took some of this syrup consistency and thinned it with more acetone in a bottle for use.

 

[emtmike]

So do you just toss a pice of Plexiglas into a jug of acetone?

 

[terrymiller]

That is all that is needed I covered the bottom of a new 1 gallon paint can with Plexiglass about 2" thick then filled with acetone for the thick solution. After that is made you can thin as needed.

 

[jssmith3]

Ok, maybe this is a stupid question but is PR the same as acrylic? I have PR and straight acetone, If not, then how and were do you get the acrylic?
Sorry so many questions but I am really interested []
Janet

 

[terrymiller]

Janet no PR and Acrylic are not the same the source that I use is Plexiglass which is used a lot as safety windows. You may be able to get scraps from a glass dealer from where they cut it to size for the window. The scraps or even the shavings would work.

 

[Fred in NC]

Good idea !!! I have used acrylic finishes in the past; they shine line glass and are very durable. The sanding technique you described is exactly what I used.

Best results with a commercial product have been with Krylon Triple Thick Crystal Clear Glaze, from WallyWorld. I transfer the barrels to a wood dowel and give it 3 coats off the lathe, letting dry in between. Then back to the lathe to sand and polish as described above.

 

[Butcher]

Terry,

I have tried this on two pens so far and it seems to work REAL well.

Like you I sand up thru 400, clean with DNA then seal with sanding sealer. Using my thin mix, 5 - 6 coats then up thru the MM (if I did a good job of getting smooth coats.

I believe this will become my finish of choice. Takes a bit longer then the Shalack and should last a LOT longer then the PPP.

Thanks for the idea.

 

[its_virgil]

This process sounds interesting. Thanks for reporting. I've just recently read of a finish that one of the commercial or higher end pen makers uses. It was glass ground in a mortar and pestle to a fine dust. The glass was dissolved in a solvent(forgot what it was), applied to the pen with two or thee coats. It was then heated in an oven and encapsulated the pen in a glass finish. I suppose it was buffed after that. Maybe I should find the article and read it again and then we could work on that finish. Maybe some day that perfect finish will be found.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by its_virgil
<br />This process sounds interesting. Thanks for reporting. I've just recently read of a finish that one of the commercial or higher end pen makers uses. It was glass ground in a mortar and pestle to a fine dust. The glass was dissolved in a solvent(forgot what it was), applied to the pen with two or thee coats. It was then heated in an oven and encapsulated the pen in a glass finish. I suppose it was buffed after that. Maybe I should find the article and read it again and then we could work on that finish. Maybe some day that perfect finish will be found.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Are you sure it was glass?? I cannot think of any solvent that would dissolve glass and I highly doubt any of the materials we use, like wood, would be stable to survive the treatment in an oven that might produce a glass coating on a pen (i.e. melting glass) and what will happen when you drop the pen? But I would like to read this article.

 

[btboone]

I think the glass was used in the David Oscarson pens. They are fused over metal pens though.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Originally posted by btboone
<br />I think the glass was used in the David Oscarson pens. They are fused over metal pens though.

Glass enamels are finely ground colored fusable glass that are in a suspension binder. They aren't disolved in anything (I know you didn't say that, I'm just tagging this on the end of the thread.).

If you have a chemical that disolves glass (muriatic acid, for one) it will disolve organics as well. You need to be very aware of the dangers involved in handling such chemicals and at all times use appropriate care and safety equipment.

 

[Nolan]

Does the solution look cloudy before you put it on? I got a batch started so I just want to know what it might look like (dont know if my plexi and or acetone was too old.
Nolan

 

[Butcher]

If it just a little cloudy, you may need to thin it just a little more. The batch I have shows swirls when you shake it. I think I need to thin mine out a little more as it wanted to clump up on a pen I was finishing for the wife last night.

Like Terry said, it needs to be about like thin CA or just a little thicker then water.

I'm still experimenting, but it looks good so far. Pics of a couple if a few days.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by Rudy Vey
<br />

Originally posted by its_virgil
<br />This process sounds interesting. Thanks for reporting. I've just recently read of a finish that one of the commercial or higher end pen makers uses. It was glass ground in a mortar and pestle to a fine dust. The glass was dissolved in a solvent(forgot what it was), applied to the pen with two or thee coats. It was then heated in an oven and encapsulated the pen in a glass finish. I suppose it was buffed after that. Maybe I should find the article and read it again and then we could work on that finish. Maybe some day that perfect finish will be found.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Are you sure it was glass?? I cannot think of any solvent that would dissolve glass and I highly doubt any of the materials we use, like wood, would be stable to survive the treatment in an oven that might produce a glass coating on a pen (i.e. melting glass) and what will happen when you drop the pen? But I would like to read this article.

I think flouric acid dissolves glass. We need a chemist type to help out here. There are glass etching products available that use a glass dissolving solution. And products called 'liquid glass' are just glass dissolved in the stuff.

 

[wdcav1952]

Frank, it is Phosphoric Acid that dissolves glass. The etchant the dentist uses during composite (tooth colored) restorations is a phosphoric acid product and is kept in plastic rather than glass bottles.

 

[its_virgil]

Yes Bruce, the pen was done by David Oscarson. Thanks.

Actually I did say dissolved, but maybe that was the wrong interpretation by me. I think tiny glass particles were suspended in some liquid to allow it to be deposited on the pen. The article I read was not too involved in the precess, but was an article touting the pens of Oscarson.

Maybe Glass Scratcher can enlighten us more on the process. I remember from HS chemistry that the acid used to etch glass is not very nice when it gets on the skin. It tends to penetrate to the and settle in bone and cause problems. I for one will not be trying the process, I just thought it unusual and unique. Guess thats what makes the Oscarson pens unique and expensive.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Frank, it is Phosphoric Acid that dissolves glass. The etchant the dentist uses during composite (tooth colored) restorations is a phosphoric acid product and is kept in plastic rather than glass bottles.

 

[DCBluesman]

For those who are interested, here's a link to the Corning Glass Museum about glass. Let it suffice to say I'll not be dissolving glass to use as a finish on pens. [8D] http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=716

 

[Skye]

"Properties of Glass: Chemical"

You lost my attention right about there. lol

 

[mwechtal]

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />For those who are interested, here's a link to the Corning Glass Museum about glass. Let it suffice to say I'll not be dissolving glass to use as a finish on pens. [8D] http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=716

Well, this is my first post, but since I work in the glass industry, I thought I could explain. Many of the Oscarson pens seem to have Enamel coatings. The type they are talking about is colored glass ground to a fine powder mixed with water and probably a thickener and spread on metal. Brass, copper, silver and gold seem to be the metals that are used most with enamels. The metal is fired in something like a ceramics kiln and you end up with metal coated with glass. This is the same type of coating that is on many kitchen appliances.

As for dissolving glass:
Phosphoric acid takes a very long time to dissolve glass. I've seen it shipped to labs in glass bottles, although plastic is more common nowadays. It is used to etch teeth, but tooth enamel has much less resistance to acid than glass.

Hydrofluoric acid is the one that dissolves glass. You do not want to mess with it. On contact with skin it penetrates to the bone, and begins dissolving them. [] If you get glass back out of solution after dissolving it in hydrofluoric acid you're going to have a sludgy mess. To make glass out of it again, you would have to fire it in a kiln.

I hope this helps.

Mike

 

[ilikewood]

Sounds pretty interesting.

On a cautionary note, acetone is not real safe to breath or put on your skin. Has a tendency to penetrate the skin and enter your bloodstream very rapidly (kinda like DMSO). Make sure if you use it, to use safe handling procedures.

Also, I agree with mike...HF is not something you want to handle (that is Hydrofluoric acid and not Harbor Freight).

 

[RussFairfield]

The acrylic coating over stabilized wood would be the hardest finish that can be put on a pen. In any method of hardness testing, acrylic exceeds anything else we can put on a pen. The effect should be one of encapsulating the wood inside the acrylic. The gloss, durability, and hardness of such a pen would be the same as that of an acrylic pen blank.

Somwhere in these messages I read that someone described the acrylic being applied over a sanding sealer. I am wondering what purpose using such a sealer would serve. Any intermediate finish, either shellac or lacquer in the form of a sanding sealer or a CA glue, would act as a barrier coat that would prevent the acrylic being put ON the wood from melting into and becoming a 100% bond with the acrylic that is IN the wood as a stabilizer.

 

[Ryan]

If everyone is mixing this plexi finish to just thicker than water We should be able to spray it as well. This would give nice even coats and would build quickly.

Does anyone know if the vapor would be flamable??

Ryan

 

[DCBluesman]

Acetone is EXTREMELY flammable!

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by mwechtal
<br />

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />For those who are interested, here's a link to the Corning Glass Museum about glass. Let it suffice to say I'll not be dissolving glass to use as a finish on pens. [8D] http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=716

Well, this is my first post, but since I work in the glass industry, I thought I could explain. Many of the Oscarson pens seem to have Enamel coatings. The type they are talking about is colored glass ground to a fine powder mixed with water and probably a thickener and spread on metal. Brass, copper, silver and gold seem to be the metals that are used most with enamels. The metal is fired in something like a ceramics kiln and you end up with metal coated with glass. This is the same type of coating that is on many kitchen appliances.

As for dissolving glass:
Phosphoric acid takes a very long time to dissolve glass. I've seen it shipped to labs in glass bottles, although plastic is more common nowadays. It is used to etch teeth, but tooth enamel has much less resistance to acid than glass.

Hydrofluoric acid is the one that dissolves glass. You do not want to mess with it. On contact with skin it penetrates to the bone, and begins dissolving them. [] If you get glass back out of solution after dissolving it in hydrofluoric acid you're going to have a sludgy mess. To make glass out of it again, you would have to fire it in a kiln.

I hope this helps.

Mike

Not only can Hydrofluoric Acid attack and dissolve your bones, but the main reason that labeled toxic is the fact that it will tie up the Calcium and Magnesium in your blood and one will die very fast.
It is a really nasty stuff and the chemical I am most afraid of to work with. It attacks glass and it is used for glass etching.
Here is some info for the ones that will know more:

http://ehs.unc.edu/pdf/HydrofluoricAcid.pdf

Dissolving glass in Phosphoric Acid will take a looooong time. We stored 75% H3PO4 in glass bottles without seeing any attack on the glass for years. In dentistry it is used to etch the tooth enamel making it more susceptible for later applied fillings..
Chemical that will attack glass are strong alkalis like Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide, after stored in glass bottles for some time one will see some blinding of the glass - but this also takes some time.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Originally posted by Rudy Vey
Not only can Hydrofluoric Acid attack and dissolve your bones, but the main reason that labeled toxic is the fact that it will tie up the Calcium and Magnesium in your blood and one will die very fast.
It is a really nasty stuff and the chemical I am most afraid of to work with. It attacks glass and it is used for glass etching.
Here is some info for the ones that will know more:

http://ehs.unc.edu/pdf/HydrofluoricAcid.pdf

Dissolving glass in Phosphoric Acid will take a looooong time. We stored 75% H3PO4 in glass bottles without seeing any attack on the glass for years. In dentistry it is used to etch the tooth enamel making it more susceptible for later applied fillings..
Chemical that will attack glass are strong alkalis like Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide, after stored in glass bottles for some time one will see some blinding of the glass - but this also takes some time.

Actually in etching glass we don't mind taking, well not a looooong time, but some time. There are many acids used to etch glass. Most of them we buffer out so that they are not as aggressive. Not saying that they aren't aggressive, but so that the glass etching can be controlled. Different acids can give different effects depending on strength used and buffering agents and additives. You can have white frosts, grey frosts, smooth etches that will appear as running water... I don't know them all and I have only limited myself to 2 acids to work with. Well, I have used HF to do some clean up but the terminal aspects of a burn lead me to never contemplate it again.

There are several new "Safe" acids availble for crafters, that you can put your bare hands in, let it dry and then wash off with soap and water and not have any adverse health effects(I still wouldn't want to injest it even thought the Hawkers at the trade shows say you can eat the stuff and it won't harm you!). I did my nephews handprints in a glass pane with some about 8 years back, it is very slow stuff.

But back to the topic at hand...

That pen is pretty sharp looking... I will have to try the plexi finishing method out after this next contract and I have collected all the outstanding checks so I can afford this hobby.

 

[jdavis]

Sounds good need to try it

 

[Butcher]

Russ, that was me using the sanding sealer. The two I have done that turned out real good were on a corn cob and unstabilized spalted oak. Seemed to work real well.

I did try it on some Cocobolo and that didn't work. I'm not sure if it was the sanding sealer or the oils in the wood but the plexi just peeled right off. It may have also been that I went up through some of the MM after the sanding sealer and there wasn't enough grain for the plexi to adhere to. I ended up using WoodTurners Finish on that one.

Still experimenting and learning....

 

[terrymiller]

Butch I also found that the oily wood the plexi would not adhere. I started using a sealer coat of CA then the Plexi on oily woods and works really good so far.

 

[Butcher]

Terry, may have to give that a try. It's just that the CA just tears me up real bad. The acatone doesn't bother me but the CA is a killer. May have to do like someone else did and put a fan near the lathe at blow the fumes away.

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by Butcher
<br />Terry, may have to give that a try. It's just that the CA just tears me up real bad. The acatone doesn't bother me but the CA is a killer. May have to do like someone else did and put a fan near the lathe at blow the fumes away.

Butch, get a dust collector. The Navy and shipboard fumes probably did enough damage to your lungs, you don't need wood dust down there as well.

 

[Butcher]

William, one of those is on the "Things to get" list when the budget allows.

You are so right about the Navy having done enough. Between smoking (be a quiter now for almost 20 years), going into voids, engine rooms, holds, RCs and out on the flight line - no telling what is left....

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Not to jump in with a HF(Harbor Freight) alert or anything but If you do have a HF nearby, the newest ad paper has a 1hp dust collector on sale for $89.99. The sale price is not listed on line at this time. Use the ever available 20% off coupon and get a better deal.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=31810

You will want to order some better bags for this collector though but if your primary goal is to move fumes then this collector/blower would be a good start.

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by Butcher
<br />William, one of those is on the "Things to get" list when the budget allows.

You are so right about the Navy having done enough. Between smoking (be a quiter now for almost 20 years), going into voids, engine rooms, holds, RCs and out on the flight line - no telling what is left....

Yes, two years on the Saratoga CV-60 was enough for me, those engine rooms beat a sauna any day! I was glad that I stayed away from them for the most part!

 

[terrymiller]

Hey Cav when were you on the Sara, I made the Decom Cruise on her 93-94.

 

[thewishman]

I wanted to resurrect this post (though not the glass etching part).

The Plexiglas finish is very quick, exceedingly simple, beautiful, and, if I am an example, idiot proof! Terry's method worked the first time I tried it and produced a beautiful shine in less than 10 minutes - start-to-finish (pun intended)!

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

Terry,

Would you be willing to sell some of your thinned out, ready to go mixture? I would like to give this finish a try, but I don't want to have to go through the entire process until I know that it is someithing that I want to do on many of my pens. I live over in Chesapeake (Deep Creek area).

 

[terrymiller]

Scott shoot me an e-mail and I will give you my phone number to contact me so we can make arrangement to meet up.