Need help with CA/BLO

[CaliforniaRed]

A custom cabinet maker friend gave me 10 beautiful pieces of cherry. I told him I would make him a pen in return. Turned the wood with no problem. I am having one heck of a problem getting an acceptable finish on the wood. I ran out of my thick CA from PSI. I purchased some Satellite City Hot Stuff Special-T CA glue. It appears the CA is penetrating the wood and soaking in. It appears it is drying almost immediately upon application. It gets real tacky and has no shine whatsoever. This is the first time I have turned cherry. I am applying with a clean cotton rag. I don't know what is causing the problem. Is cherry a difficult wood to apply the CA/BLO finish? I didn't use a sealer. Should I? I thought it might be the heat of about 120 degrees in my garage but the PSI CA glue was not affected. I placed the BLO and the CA in the house for a few hours to bring it to room temperature and I had the same problem. Is it the glue from Satellite City?

Sorry for the rambling but I have spent untold hours on this pen with nothing but frustration to show for it. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[wdcav1952]

Chris,
I switched to Enduro Poly some months ago, and my finishes improved greatly. It takes longer to finish, but really does the wood prout IMHO.

 

[CJ]

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish4.shtml

I know a lot of people use paper towel to spread the CA glue while finishing. This article on it says paper towel and cotton can act as an accelerator. I have not done much finishing with it so I have no opinion personally.

 

[JimGo]

Chris,
The finish might be just fine, but need some buffing/polishing. Have you tried hitting it with MicroMesh from 4000-12000 again to even everything out? Also, try some plastic polish when you're done; that should give it even more pizzaz

 

[CaliforniaRed]

Thanks for the suggestions. I may look into Enduro since my belief is that the CA is the problem.

I read the same article CJ but at this point I have not had a problem. In my mind I eliminated that as a problem. Thanks for the help.

Jim, it really looks as if I have applied absolutely nothing. I did sand to MM 12000 to no avail. I tried again this morning with a little better result. I am just wondering if it was too hot in my garage. I think I will try some plastic polish. Thanks for the assistance Jim.

 

[MDWine]

I seem to have difficulty with CA as well. I've watched Griz do it, read the instructions, and tried on many different pens. I get only fair results.

On the last one, I put a bunch of CA on the wood, and it did seem to build up. I had to go to 800, then thru some MM to get a finish that would shine. A final polish with some automotive 'compound' will bring a shiny surface.

Other pens I have seen (like Tom and Jim) have that nice thick "plastic" looking finish, but I can't seem to get it to that point. Mine looks thin. It's not altogether unattractive, but it often takes me several attempts to get to a 'fair' CA finish... On more than one occasion, I've sanded thru the CA and started over!!

Seems I can't figure this thing out... and it ain't happy! [!]

 

[its_virgil]

Michael,
Don't give up. Keep adjusting and tweaking to find out where you are going wrong. I was so frustrated when I first started trying the CA finish. I kept trying, reading and finally discovered my problem was lathe speed. I had to slow down to the slowest speed and it worked. I have now speeded up the lathe to apply the CA. Most of my CA/BLO finishes look really good before MMing or final buffing. That is when I knew I had arrived. Have you read the article by Fred Munday in our article archives?

I have tried all of the application materials and the finish only works for me if I use Bounty paper towels. Maybe you should change application media. Some of the application media that others use are:
(1) viva paper towels, (2) packing peanuts, (3) plastic baggies from pen kits, (4) unwashed white terry cloth, (5) synthetic material that is used as backing in some clothing to make it a little stiffer..inside neck ties, etc, (6) t-shirt material. Maybe there are others. Try the different application media and maybe you will find the one that works for you.

Good Luck and don't give up...
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[MDWine]

I'm glad that it sounds promising! I'm using Bounty right now, 'cuz that's what Griz told me! []

My wife says that she hates Viva (the other PT that Tome recommended) because it doesn't seem to absorb like others... (hmmmm, a "CA Clue"?) that says to me that maybe that will help too... I slowed the speed to the absolute slowest, and that seemed to help me build up a bit more... I've had to resand 3 or 4 blanks trying to get this done. I can get a bit of a shine, but no where near the ones that I've see. I'll try the Viva, and keep plugging!

THanks!

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by MDWine
<br /><b>I'm using Bounty right now, 'cuz that's what Griz told me</b>!

NO, Griz told you not to use Bounty, I told you to use Viva... the day you were here I had a roll of Bounty that my wife bought by mistake and I said I didn't like the stuff and normally use Viva, because it has a more cloth like texture....

 

[MDWine]

Tried again last night, using a Kingwood streamline. I got a pretty thick layer of CA, but it is very rough. I'll get some more sandpaper tonight, and try to polish it up. I suspect that it will finish OK, but not that "high gloss" that I'm really looking for. Maybe Wally's will carry sandpaper and Viva? []

 

[53Jim]

My luck with CA and BLO together has been getting better. At first I thought that I wasn't accomplishing anything. Than I used more BLO, and added the CA and it looked pretty good. Another coat, or two, and the finish is ready for sanding (mm - 4,000 - 12,000), than a bit of plastic polish and you're good to go.
<u>Just my method.</u>[^]

 

[MDWine]

I sanded the Kingwood blank last night, started w/800, up through MM12000. It looks pretty good. I also got some automotive 'swirl remover' or something like that from Mattco, and will work with that a bit to see what happens. Right now, tho, it looks OK. I would certainly assemble it and sell it this way.

The thing is, I don't remember the blank being that rough when Griz did it...

I have yet to try the Viva towels, or wax paper as one article suggests. I'm going to work with this stuff until I get it down! (or go crazier trying!)[]

I'm trying to find a finish for my "lower priced" pens that I can "crank out"... I don't want to wait a week for 5 coats of lacquer to cure for a slimline!

 

[Old Griz]

Mike, sounds like you need to come back over for a refresher course... []
I have a feeling that you are trying to shortcut some of the stuff I showed you... and may not even realize it...

 

[Barry in London]

Michael, for your "lower priced" pens, try Mylands Friction Polish. I use it on my slimlines and it's very fast to do. I know that some people think it doesn't last but I've seen pens I sold a couple of years ago that are used daily and they still shine.

Sorry, can't help you with the CA. I stay away from it. With my luck I'd glue my fingers together!

Regards

Barry
London, Ontario, Canada

 

[MDWine]

Barry, I know exactly what you mean. I was a bit careless, and glued a VERY HOT paper towell to my finger! [:0]OUCH!!!

I have the Mylands friction and the masters finishes. I used the Masters on my son's plum pen, which now shows signs of wear, and since he is a bike rider, the "moisture" in his clothes has dulled the finish. I have a couple of pens finished with the regular friction polish, and they look great. I wonder, however, how they would fare under similar circumstances? I really want a finish that is quick to produce, and is durable.

My latest CA attempt is OK. The Kingwood looks good, and the CA polished up really well. The drawback is that it took me a while to sand down the high spots and sand up through 12000MM to get the polish I liked. ...a bit time consuming, not conducive to "production" times!

I probably am missing some steps, as Tom suggests, and don't realize it. I have read those CA articles until I am blue, but still get only so-so results.

Now, having said that, I will try again using the wax paper suggestion, and I have a new roll of Viva to try as well. I'll try again with fingers crossed, and hope they don't get glued that way!! (I found my stash of vinyl gloves!)

I'll keep ya posted![]

 

[4reel]

I am certainly no expert but I use Mylands on most of my pens and you really need to get it hot. I actually can see smoke at times. When I have about 6 or more coats ( first one is CA as a sealer or the Mylands sealer) I will put Renisance wax on it. That will revitalze some of those older pens.
I just tried a CA finish tonight an had good results. I will use some of the tips I read here to improve that finish.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Try applying Ca with foam like they use for pipe insulation.
Lowes carries it in 30'x 6" rolls for about $3.00.
CA doesn't stick to it.
It's the same type of foam they use to wrap electronic parts.
Also Thin will heat toooo fast.
The HArley Davidson method.
Put a lot on. let it set.
use a skew or steel wool to level it off, MM to # 9.

 

[lkorn]

Mike,
CA is not trhe right finish for your inexpensive pens, it just takes too long to apply and poish. Tom gave me some Mylands Lacquer based friction polish that seems to work very well as opposed to the shellac based stuff. Russ Fairfield also has a recipe for "home-brewed" lacquer FP. Its fast and furious, just make sure that you generate enough heat to smoke it. DON"T use on heat sensitive woods that will crack on you.

I've been practicing the CA as Tom showed us, I don't get it smooth on application, but after sanding with 1200 grit, MM to 12000, Polishing compound and plastic polish THEY SHINE!

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by lkorn
<br /> Tom gave me some Mylands Lacquer based friction polish that seems to work very well as opposed to the shellac based stuff.

Larry the stuff I gave you is <b>not</b> Mylands it is the same as this sold by Penn State

http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PSI&Product_Code=PKFRICT2&Category_Code=FINISH

It can also be bought directly from Wood Wright Ltd in Hanover, PA
http://www.woodwriteltd.com/turnmagi.htm

 

[lkorn]

Larry the stuff I gave you is <b>not</b> Mylands it is the same as this sold by Penn State

OK, I stand corrected. NOT the first time I suffered from CRAFT Disease[]

 

[MDWine]

I guess my big problem is that I read here that those friction polishes don't last.
I can't prove it with other than two pens. Both of these were carried in pockets, in "humid" (ie sweaty) conditions, and in both cases, the shine disappears! In one case, you could see the print of the pocket fabric in the finish of the pen.

Did I "smoke" it? I thought so, it was real shiny when I was done, but carrying it in my pocket destroyed the finish.

This weekend, I took the other half of a bloodwood blank that I blew up, and am trying VIVA towels with the "blo" method. I was only able to get one application on it, but it looks fairly good so far! I'll try some more on it tonight...

"durable" is the keyword here, that's what I'm looking for. Lou suggested dipping in lacquer for one coat. I'll try that later. I'll have to go into an "experimentation" phase, I guess...

fun, ain't it? []

 

[4reel]

I tried the automotive compound to improve my shine and I got an instant fog. I waited about 1/2 hour before trying it. Should I have waited 24 hours or have others found the same issue?

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by 4reel
<br />I tried the automotive compound to improve my shine and I got an instant fog. I waited about 1/2 hour before trying it. Should I have waited 24 hours or have others found the same issue?

I use the automotive polishing compound on the CA finish as soon as I finish sanding to 12000MM.. which is as soon as the CA is dry, a couple of minutes... CA does not have to cure for a long time before sanding like lacquer or enduro...
Lacquer needs to cure for about 5-7 days before buffing out...
Enduro is a 2 day process, but does not reach full hardness for at least 5-7 days either.

 

[its_virgil]

I don't understand how it takes so long. I put on 3 coats of CA/BLO, sand and polish and do it all in 5 or 6 minutes. And, if I do say so myself, my finishes look really good...and, yes, I know what a really good finish looks like. I thought mine did(1 1/2 yrs ago) until I saw some really nice finishes in person. I've worked hard to get my finishing to where it is today. I can't imagine just putting CA on the expensive pens. It is my finish of choice for every pen I make...well, wood at least.

do a good turn daily!
Don


CA is not trhe right finish for your inexpensive pens, it just takes too long to apply and poish.

 

[Thumbs]

Well, I don't know what it is! Some of us newer guys must have forgotten something very basic and important.

When I first started doing this "stuff", I watched William Cavanaugh till I had it down pat. Ha! I came home and did a couple of my mediocre pens with CA. The CA didn't look too bad though and didn't seem too hard to do.

Now a few months later my cutting has gotten a teeny bit better (well, on occasion) but I couldn't do a CA finish if my life depended on it! I don't know what the heck is going on! I read and re-read the instructions on how to do it and I wind up with a cruddy mess. I sand it off and go back to my MYLANDS. It does make for a good sealing coat though.......... HELP! [V][]

 

[CaliforniaRed]

Thumbs,

That is what prompted this thread. The first time I tried the CA/BLO, I got a very acceptable finish. Did a few others and had no problems. I was actually very happy with the finish. Then all the sudden, something changed and I can't get the finish even close to acceptable. I have re-read all the threads and evaluated what I am doing and still can't get a good finish. It is frustrating to continually take the finish back to wood and start over. At least someone else is frustrated with this. I look at some of these finishes and I am in awe as to how beautiful they are. "its_virgil" wrote he puts 3 coats, sands and polishes in about 5-6 minutes. I hope I find out where my problem is so I can get a satisfactory finish with CA/BLO in that time frame.

 

[its_virgil]

If all of a sudden the finish is not working, then you must figure out what it is you're doing or not doing to make that happen. Have you changed application material, BLO brand, CA brand, lathe speed, sanding or not sanding between coats? Something has changed to make your once successful finish become frustrating. I can change from bounty to viva(sorry all of you viva stock holders and users) and the Ca finish does not work for me. I tried the CA finish and got frustrated because it would not work for me. I watched others apply it and followed their steps and it would not work for me. I put it away for a few weeks, then decided I would figure this out. To make a long story short and after reading all I cold find aboutn CA finishing, continued to try the finish and one day it worked and I have been improving my technique since. The article by Fred Munday in our articles area is pretty close to the technique I use. Keep trying and one of these days (soon I hope) it will click and you will be giving others advice and you will be quailifed to do so since you've been there.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by CaliforniaRed
<br />Thumbs,
Then all the sudden, something changed and I can't get the finish even close to acceptable. I have re-read all the threads and evaluated what I am doing and still can't get a good finish. It is frustrating to continually take the finish back to wood and start over. At least someone else is frustrated with this.

 

[JimGo]

Another thing to look at is whether the CA has gone bad. Once open, a bottle of CA has a certain shelf life. While it still may bond sufficiently to be used as a glue, it may not form the nice crystaline structure that gives you the finish you are looking for.

 

[4reel]

I actually had a good finish from BLO/CA until I put the automotive stuff on. I sanded the unit down and reapplied and got a decent finish, not one I would sell but most of it was very good.
I did not find the application hard, I use common BLO and the CA was purchased at a woodcraft store in Appleton Wi. so noting fancy. I did order some of the Enduro, it sounds like it comes out more reliable than BLO/CA even though it takes longer. The Micro Mesh has been a great thing and the final appearance is also enhance with Renissance wax

 

[DCBluesman]

Hi Chris--Clovis, huh? I think I drove past their one Sunday night on my way to Bakerfield (from Sacramento). It was hotter than blazes that night as well and all I could get on my radio was some $10-a-prayer preacher. []

Seems like a couple of questions in your original post haven't been answered. The first deals with the 120-degree fahrenheit for my international friends) heat when you are using CA. CA hates heat! It would like to be worked at about 60 and stored at about 40. In all likelihood that's why is was tacky.

As for the Super-T, I've used it and it works great. It's just expensive. As I recall, PSI sells Insta-cure and Tite-bond. They are fine glues as well. Will one work better than another in the heat? Possibly. But I would be much more tempted to use CA in a cooler environment.

 

[CaliforniaRed]

DCBluesman-Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure how CA was effected by the heat. This was the first pen I had put a CA/BLO finish on during the day. I have only been doing pens at night after the family has gone to bed. Since that time, it has been over 100 every day. In DC you have the heat and humidity, how are you applying the CA?

Jim - The CA I have is brand new. I guess that doesn't mean it is not 2-3 years old.

Don - I have been trying to figure out what has changed. The two items that changed are the temperature and the brand of CA glue. I am working with scrap wood now to see if I can figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks for all the responses. They really are helpful.

 

[DCBluesman]

Chris--the humidity will work in your favor, as CA works best in a moist environment. In too humid an area, many keep their CA in the refrigerator to 1) keep the temperature down and 2) keep the moisture down. CA will definitely have a longer shelf life in the refrigerator. I'm fortunate in using CA. My shop is a tiny section of my basement where the temperature rarely exceeds 75 degrees. I think your best shot is to go back to finishing after your family retires for the evening. Let us know if this doesn't work for you and we'll continue to help you run this down.

 

[MDWine]

I guess I'm lucky, my attempts at CA have never worked, so I don't have to figure out what I have changed!

I had a bloodwood blank on the lathe. I sanded down to 800, and applied the first coat of thin CA with a "BLO'd" pad of Viva, and it looked fairly good!

I allowed that to cure overnight. The next day, feeling confident [V], I tried to apply the second coat, using a medium viscosity, and it went to doo-doo. I suppose, had this been a "production" pen, I could have sanded my way down to a decent finish as I have with my other attempts.

Seem I remember Tom getting a pretty shiny finish without having to sand down huge lumps of CA!

I too have read and re-read those articles, and have both of them posted in my shop. I read each of them before every attempt... didn't do any good, results were always the same.

I really would like to get the hang of this at some point![B)]

 

[JimGo]

Michael, how old is your CA?

 

[Thumbs]

Now, I am really torqued!!!!!!![!]
I have been trying to use CA without any BLO because I read the posts about using BLO and having the CA finishes cloud up. That had happened to me on a few so I've been trying without and just getting a gummy mess! So yesterday, I just put some BLO on a paper towel and dumped the ol' CA to the blanks again. Worked like a charm! Have no idea whether it will cloud up in a couple days or not! GAAA![!][V]

 

[lawry76]

My problem/concern is that I am never sure of those final last steps. I use CA/BLO and am very pleased with the results. But I often wonder why do I need to add friction polish (etc) on top of this? For what purpose? I am tempted to let them come off the lathe, harded for a few days, and then wax and be done. Am I setting myself up for a dull pen if I go directly from CA/BLO to wax?

 

[MDWine]

Jim, my CA is new, only open for about 6 weeks. (this doesn't speak to how old it is, only how long it has been open. I have had it for maybe 2 or 3 weeks prior!)

Hopefully, after some pen sales, I can scrape some $$ together for some new stuff.

I'll bet my problems are more application and technique...[]

 

[4reel]

Okay, MY BLO is maybe 5 years old and I purchased the CA November 2004 I just did three pens with BLO/CA and they are fine. I do not know what type of paper towel I use. You can look at one of them on my photos it is a European pen made with Screwbean Mesquite. The pictures not the best but I can see my face in the finish. Some how you are not getting it on correctly. Can it be the supplies, sure, but since you have changed those and still no luck I would look at the process.

 

[CPDesigns]

Kind of a chemistry question here... What does the BLO do for the finish? Is it a solvent for the CA to keep it from drying too quickly and/or keep it smooth? Can you use anything else in conjunction with CA or just BLO? Can you use CA alone and a bit of plastic polish? More curiosity than anything else.