My photo setup

[alphageek]

This is to help with some questions, but to make it so others can ask questions, I started my own thread.

The 1st picture: My layout (a walmart tent).. I replaced the original bulbs with 50w floods. The originals aren't enough. You can see the rough positioning of everything.

2nd picture: a shot showing the clarity including Lou custom nib Make sure to use macro focus

3rd shot: Manual Mode: F8 1/3 second
4th shot: Manual mode F2.8 1/20 second

Note - at this distance and angle DOF doesn't matter all that much.

Used irfanview to resize images.

Again, I'm no expert, but thought I'd show what I do for discussion.

------ There have been a couple of PMs about the tent, so Here is some more info:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5030889
It used to be in the photo area (with camera bags, etc) in mine. I don't think they carry it anymore at mine because I got it on clearance.
FYI - I think this one at HF is almost identical:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=65797

 

[rjwolfe3]

Is it better to have the lights farther away and do you remember where you got the replacement bulbs? I have the same WalMart setup but I believe you have a lot better camera lol.

 

[alphageek]

Is it better to have the lights farther away and do you remember where you got the replacement bulbs? I have the same WalMart setup but I believe you have a lot better camera lol.

I usually adjust the lights last once I have the camera and pens in place to adjust the shadows/highlights the best I can.

And I got the new bulbs at WM too. As for the camera.. for reference this is my new Canon sx110 , but I have pretty good luck with most canons (I've owned several).

 

[PenAffair]

Finally home. I'll get some piccies of my setup in the morning when I'm not crawling over sleeping people. It's pretty much the same as yours, just the lamps are slightly different.

I assume your pictures are straight off the camera, just resized? I'd be interested to see a 100% crop of the original image around the clip and cap, as that's where I'm being critical of my shots.

That's also a fairly high contrast pen. It'd be good to see something low contrast to see how well the grain definition is reproduced at 100%, another area I'm critical of my A580.

Post again when I'm awake.

Russell.

 

[NewLondon88]

I have some studio lights (strobes, slaves, fills etc) but I've been using
a 500 watt work light (one of those yellow lights on a stand) and a
microphone stand as a boom. I put the light up over the tent facing down.
I find it has eliminated most of the shadows, but a couple of white cards
on either side of the pen helps fill in any darker areas on the sides.

The strong light coming from the top also reflects off of the inside sides of
the tent, which also helps fill in shadows.

I won't win any awards, but it has been working well so far.

 

[PenAffair]

Hey folks,

Before I post too much more here, can I put a disclaimer? I'm trying to find the best, best way of getting pictures here, so I'm going to be hypercritical of everything. Normally I'd say NewLondon's picture looks great, which it does, but the object here is to identify every flaw and try and find ways to fix it. Please do not take any comments the wrong way, I'm just trying to improve my images, maybe beyond reasonable expectations.

So sorry Charlie, but here goes.

The nib of the pen looks slightly blurry. Is that from camera shake, or Depth of Field? Also, the top of the cap has lost some contrast as it blends into the background. Finally, why is there a second ghost reflection around the primary one? Is that due to the top & bottom layers of the reflective surface, or something else?

 

[NewLondon88]

So sorry Charlie, but here goes.

The nib of the pen looks slightly blurry. Is that from camera shake, or Depth of Field? Also, the top of the cap has lost some contrast as it blends into the background. Finally, why is there a second ghost reflection around the primary one? Is that due to the top & bottom layers of the reflective surface, or something else?

No problem, fire away. Ansel Adams, I ain't. :tongue:

This was photographed on a mirror. (only photo I could find on short notice)
So there's waaay too much reflection. I've since changed to a black marble
tile, which still gives a reflection, but not nearly this much.
A different mirror would help, too. This one has too many layers.

As for the contrast, that might be because this file has been altered, and
I don't have my color profiles set up on this computer yet. I'm used to
working on a CRT monitor with color management software, but on this
computer I have LCD monitors that don't handle color management well,
if at all. Highlights and shadows are blocked up.

As for the focus, that's my eyes. I used to be able to focus well, but now
I find I can't see clearly in that little LCD panel on the back of the camera.
Resizing the image also plays havoc on images. The nice clean lines you
see at full resolution become stairs when the image is resized.
This one might be a little better.

 

[PenAffair]

This one might be a little better.

Err, lol, did you check what image you posted? Either it ain't displaying properly or it's a 50x50 image blown up Jaggie city.

I should have picked the mirror on the last one. If it wasn't for the multiple reflections, it's be a nice effect, and the red velvet (or whatever it is) looks great.

For those who haven't followed my original thread that lead alphageek to post this, and may give some context to why I'm here, you can read this thread although it's rather long and rambling.

I agree on the focus thing. Even with the camera's showing blown up views these days, which helps a lot, you still can't really tell until you see it on the PC.

Russell.

 

[PenAffair]

Ok well here's some preliminary pics of my stuff from the A580.

1. My setup. White backing fabric, the light table inside the tent can have either the white or black top on it. Normally I haven't used the table so far, but for these shots the pen is on the white table. On the left, you can see hanging over the chair some other colours for backing cloths - red, blue & black, but to date, the contrast seems to have blown the highlights when I use anything but white. Bulbs in the lamps are 26W energy efficient, 5500K lights.

2. 100% crop straight off the camera, chopped to fit forum required size & saved at .jpg quality 80 also to fit forum requirements. Image is taken from a tripod, exif data says ISO 80/Speed 1/200/F2.6/Focal Length 6mm. Full auto mode on the camera, evaluative metering and oops on having the nib the wrong way. Not sure how the focal length is measured on these things. Lens front says 5.8-23.2mm

3. Same setup, but camera zoomed in on pen, then resized to 800 pixels. ISO80/1/160/F5/19mm

4. I tried a few of the different scene modes, can't see much difference in the shots. This one has the exposure pushed +1EV in the camera. ISO 80/1/125/F2.6/6mm. This may have been hand held as well.

5. I then changed to spot metering, which is probably what I should have been using all along, and took shots focussed on various parts of the pen. Most of the others were focussed on the highlights, and were typically darker. This was the best looking shot to my eyes, focussed int he middle of the pen & bottom of the cap. Only just got all the cap in due to the zoom. ISO 80/1/25 (using 10 second timer)/F5/19mm.

5a. Will have to be displayed in the next post, at my limit.

Russell.

 

[PenAffair]

Following on from the last post.

5a. This is the one I'm most concerned about. This is a 100% crop of image 5, saved at 100% jpeg quality. To me, the woodgrain lacks definition, and is noisy. It's not camera shake, so is it the exposure/aperture settings, or is this the limit of the lens/ccd quality?

So the crux of my whole previous thread and these posts. Will a better compact (e.g. Canon G10) produce a better quality image under the same conditions? Will a DSLR (e.g. EOS 1000D) produce better images under the same conditions? Or is the whole problem my setup?

So there ya go, let me know what you think, be blunt, be brutal. if you can save me $1,000 on buying on a DSLR that won't help me, it'll be worth it.

Thanks. Russell.

 

[NewLondon88]

Err, lol, did you check what image you posted? Either it ain't displaying properly or it's a 50x50 image blown up Jaggie city.

No, that's all I have on this computer at the moment. I thought we
were talking about lighting direction, placement etc. and I was showing
what I've been doing. This is NOT a good photo.

I should have picked the mirror on the last one. If it wasn't for the multiple reflections, it's be a nice effect, and the red velvet (or whatever it is) looks great.

I agree on the focus thing. Even with the camera's showing blown up views these days, which helps a lot, you still can't really tell until you see it on the PC.
Russell.

Oh, it's worse. I find that the last year or so, I have to take my 'finished'
pens home, set up the light tent, shoot them and zoom in on the pen in
Photoshop just to see what I did.

Don't ever go blind.
And whatever you're doing in the bathroom, stop now before it's too late.:tongue:

 

[alphageek]

You asked for a lower contrast pic

Here is a more straight grained pen and a crop at 100% straight off the camera. Note - this isn't a new pic, just one I thought would fit what you asked for.

To answer your questions - a SLR would definately improve the things you are asking about. The sensors on any SLR are HUGE compared to our P&S cameras.

That being said, I don't think that an SLR is necessary. That last shot of yours is pretty darn good. If anything, I think the biggest problem is the stark shiny white is too much of a contrast for the camera.

Next round...

 

[NewLondon88]

Following on from the last post.

5a. This is the one I'm most concerned about.

So the crux of my whole previous thread and these posts. Will a better compact (e.g. Canon G10) produce a better quality image under the same conditions? Will a DSLR (e.g. EOS 1000D) produce better images under the same conditions? Or is the whole problem my setup?

So there ya go, let me know what you think, be blunt, be brutal. if you can save me $1,000 on buying on a DSLR that won't help me, it'll be worth it.

Thanks. Russell.

Before spending money on a camera, I'd try to get more light on the pen.
The word photography means writing with light, and 26W lamps aren't
giving you all that much of it.

The reason we use larger CCD's and want more pixels is because we can
start with too much and scale down from there. Same with light.. you can
start with too much and let the camera use a faster shutter speed or a
lower ISO, smaller apeture etc. to get down to the level you need.
But if you start out without enough, the software has to invent info to
fill in what's missing.

If you start with more light, your camera has more options available to it.
Also, a higher wattage will allow you to pull the light further away from
the tent, which allows for better diffusion and less harsh specular highlights.
The closer the light is to the tent, the more defined it is in the reflection.
(In the finial, you can clearly see the two lights you are using.)

 

[alphageek]

Before spending money on a camera, I'd try to get more light on the pen.
The word photography means writing with light, and 26W lamps aren't
giving you all that much of it.

Agreed 100%... Even with my up-sized lights, I sometimes do more. If you have some halogen shop type lights... give that a shot before buying anything. You'll be shocked what more light will do.

The only thing that will be too much light would be direct sunlight. And even that might be ok in your diffusion tent.

 

[marcruby]

Well, a couple of things. First of all, if you want a closeup of grain (or anything else) get close. JPEGs aren't intended to preserve extreme detail, but to produce reasonable sized files for a level of detail. Expecting one to be detailed all the way down is extremely optimistic. This i just as true for a DSLR as it is for your camera. I don't know much about the simpler cameras, but I know that several are capable of good macro performance,

Now that being said, a good DSLR with good lenses is always going to outperform the little guys. But all that flexibility and machinery comes at a big price. For an extreme example the 40 megapixel Leica S2 will sell at something like $15,000 and the lenses will come at $5,000 a crack. The top of the line Nikon is $8,000 for the body, lenses run about $1,000. But people don't buy them to take pictures of pens.

Whatever you do, don't spend money on a DSLR if all you want is pictures of your pens. They are for people who like photography, will put up with the complexity for the results, and/or like to show off their toys. >

 

[PenAffair]

That being said, I don't think that an SLR is necessary. That last shot of yours is pretty darn good. If anything, I think the biggest problem is the stark shiny white is too much of a contrast for the camera.

Thanks for posting those pics. The 100% crop looks similar to mine, although even with the blurriness, I think yours looks a little more detailed than mine. Looks like there might be a little blowout in the highlight on the clip though.

Following NL's advice, I took the tent outside into the sunshine - hand held, resting on a trampoline in the wind, and of course a cloud came over just as I started shooting. I tried on both the black and white background, but the camera had all sorts of trouble focussing and this was the only shot that came out focussed. Still, it does look a lot better, even though the white balance seems to be off a tad. However, as you can see, the 100% crop still lacks definition. I wish there were more 100% crops I could compare with other compacts. Maybe I'm just expecting too much. Will have to look at the tests on DPReview again.

Going to be a pain finding new bulbs at a decent price, I can tell. Maybe I just need to plan all my shooting while the sun is out.

Russell.

 

[NewLondon88]

Going to be a pain finding new bulbs at a decent price, I can tell. Maybe I just need to plan all my shooting while the sun is out.
Russell.

Sunlight is best, but if your camera will allow you to set a white balance
you can do with a work light from the hardware store. You know the ones..
they're usually yellow and come on a stand. They have a tube for a lamp.
500 watts is the norm, but they also have 600 and 800 watt lamps.
500 is plenty. Might set you back around $75AUD, but you can always use
another shop light, right?

 

[PenAffair]

Well, a couple of things. First of all, if you want a closeup of grain (or anything else) get close. JPEGs aren't intended to preserve extreme detail, but to produce reasonable sized files for a level of detail. Expecting one to be detailed all the way down is extremely optimistic. This i just as true for a DSLR as it is for your camera. I don't know much about the simpler cameras, but I know that several are capable of good macro performance,

Now that being said, a good DSLR with good lenses is always going to outperform the little guys. But all that flexibility and machinery comes at a big price. For an extreme example the 40 megapixel Leica S2 will sell at something like $15,000 and the lenses will come at $5,000 a crack. The top of the line Nikon is $8,000 for the body, lenses run about $1,000. But people don't buy them to take pictures of pens.

Whatever you do, don't spend money on a DSLR if all you want is pictures of your pens. They are for people who like photography, will put up with the complexity for the results, and/or like to show off their toys. >

OK well, I don't particularly want to show off the grain in close-up, but I do what the grain in the pen picture to look nice, not like some childs finger painting.

I hear what you're saying about price. You get what you pay for, and on the entry level DSLR's, virtually none of the lenses are good for macro. Even a single focal length basic macro lens would be about $400+ extra, which also puts things out of my price range. Whether the kit lens witha close-focus of 28cm is capable of a better picture than a top range compact at 10cm is another question I haven't broached yet.

Finally, to your last point - you've found me out. I don't want a camera just for taking pen photo's, but taking pen photos is my justification for wanting a camera I can't afford (as in, I have the money, but should probably be spending it on more "useful" things). I've always enjoyed photography, videography and playing with images. I most recently (several years ago) did the wedding video for my sister-in-law, along with a slideshow montage of photo's and put it all on a multimedia DVD presentation for them, and really enjoyed it, but that was a rare occurrence. I've done other things in the past involved with image design & manipulation, and the many web sites I've built over the years have all required images in one way or another.

So is it just for pens? No, but currently that & my boomerangs is the only way I'm making money back to pay for the luxury of being able to do it, and I believe standing out from the crowd by going the extra mile and presenting the best you can instead of good enough is what will keep that going. My old Powershot S1 allowed me the creativity to express what I wanted to. The A580, doesn't.

While producing images that may be "good enough" for the online shoppers, isn't good enough for me. What I need to find is something that is good enough for me, that I can afford, and not feel guilty about spending the money for the next however many years it takes that piece of equipment to die. What I don't know is, what is the cheapest price-point where that quality is achievable? Can a $100 compact produce it? Can a $600 compact produce it, or improve to a significant degree where the extra cost for another compact is worht the value? Can a $1000 DSLR produce it, and if so, is it worth the cost for the expanded capabilities to be more expressive not just with pens, but other areas I like such as low-light shooting and macro photography, while losing the portability? If nothing up to this price can give me what I'm looking for, then I might as well stick with what I have & I'll say, that's "good enough" for me, as long as I know my technique is the best it can be, with the equipment I can afford.

Well, sorry for the dissertation. Most of that is subjective. If you can help me make sure I am doing the best I can with what I've got, give me some hint sof the abilities of upmarket camera's in comparison, then the final decision on what it's all worth to me, is mine to make in an informed way which hopefully I won't regret later.

I really do appreciate everyone's time & effort in helping me.

Russell.

 

[PenAffair]

Sunlight is best, but if your camera will allow you to set a white balance
you can do with a work light from the hardware store. You know the ones..
they're usually yellow and come on a stand. They have a tube for a lamp.
500 watts is the norm, but they also have 600 and 800 watt lamps.
500 is plenty. Might set you back around $75AUD, but you can always use
another shop light, right?

Haha, don't ask my BIL that. He helped recently wire up my shed with lights. I have two sets of double flouro's. Seems plenty bright to me. His shed with is about that same size, apparently has 8 sets of doubles

My currently lights being daylight balanced at least help in post-processing. Using any old light is possible, but finding more 5500K bulbs would be better, just more difficult. It's actually much easier shooting in sunlight too. Saves cables & lamps tangling in your feet everywhere. Maybe a huge glass panel in the house roof is the way to go? :wink:

Russell.

 

[marcruby]

My best advice would be to call Adorama or Bhphoto and tell the salesman what you are trying to do and your approximate cost point. Each carries a huge range of digital photographic equipment, from the so-so to the superb. the also carry used equipment that they will warranty.

That's probably a better bet than taking my advice, which is limited to what I know well. If you do go with a DSLR remember that the general rule is to get the best lenses you can and the cheapest body that will do what you want it to. It's a lot cheaper to upgrade a body than a bunch of lenses.

Good luck, whatever your decision,

Marc

 

[PenAffair]

My best advice would be to call Adorama or Bhphoto and tell the salesman what you are trying to do and your approximate cost point. Each carries a huge range of digital photographic equipment, from the so-so to the superb. the also carry used equipment that they will warranty.

Not Australian companies unfortunately, but I get the idea.

Trouble with the G10, trying to find consistent reviews is impossible. Some say it prints as good as a Hasselblad, others say it doesn't match the image quality of a cheaper Panasonic. Some love it, some hate it. Then there's compact people who say you have to get a DSLR to get good quality, while those that have DSLR's say go for a compact, as the DSLR's are too much trouble to carry around and not that much bettr image than a compact. Seems it's a crap shoot either way.

Russell.

 

[JerryS]

Russell

Just looking over your A580 , seems like a good camera quite capable of giving you the shoots you desire . Are you shooting in the Manual mode or one of the Auto modes ?

If you use these setting as a reference in the Manual mode http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/c...categoryid=183&modelid=16335#ModelFeaturesAct
perhaps by adjusting ISO or a combination of setting you'll get those fine tight detailed close ups your looking for .

BTW I think your shoots are fine , #5 being a very good shoot .

Regards
Jerry

 

[PenAffair]

Hey Folks,

Well despite some very good advice here, I went and splurged and got an EOS450D. It's been great so far, the pens have only got a small part of the pictures I've taken, but here's an early pen shot with the new camera. So much easier to take, so much less post-processing needed. WSo far I think it's been a great investment.

Russell.

 

[alphageek]

Hey Folks,

Well despite some very good advice here, I went and splurged and got an EOS450D. It's been great so far, the pens have only got a small part of the pictures I've taken, but here's an early pen shot with the new camera. So much easier to take, so much less post-processing needed. WSo far I think it's been a great investment.

Russell.

Nice pen and picture.... Have fun with the new toy.

 

[NewLondon88]

Looking good, Russell

 

[alphageek]

I've added photo tent links to the threads because of questions in PM... Thought I'd share with all.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Dean,
I use a very similar set up as yours.. looks same, but I got off eBay.. I took one of your pictures into my photo program, I use the Microsoft digital image Pro 9... my personal preference is for a white back ground and I was trying to lighten yours some, but couldn't get really white because I was loosing the cap to a glare... I also cropped and straightened the layout of your...

Don't get me wrong, I am in now way criticizing your photography, just playing with it for my own practice... this is what I came up with... hope you don't mind my audacity...:biggrin:

 

[alphageek]

Dean,
.....but couldn't get really white because I was loosing the cap to a glare... I also cropped and straightened the layout of your...

Don't get me wrong, I am in now way criticizing your photography, just playing with it for my own practice... this is what I came up with... hope you don't mind my audacity...:biggrin:

I don't mind you playing, Chuck... I like the angled look better, which is why I don't shoot straight. The only pens I shoot straight are for my sites category listing, where angled would take too much room.

That being say... you really couldn't get white BECAUSE the background is grey. I do shoot on white sometimes as well. However , alot of the time the camera seems to make the picture 'feel' better without the higher contrast. Stark white background can make it harder on some of the edges, etc. The problem with editing from grey to white, is you've lost most of the deep rich colors of the pen as you edited away the grey.

Dean