LARGER multi-start Tap & Die set?

[mredburn]

Agreed, ! inch should be fine, they are just covering their bases since they have no idea what we will use them for. MIght want to make a triple lead set of lugnuts and studs for your car. Faster Tire changes that way.

 

[Texatdurango]

In case anyone is counting........

I'm a definate "IN" for the ballpark figure of $125 for:

1ea taper tap
1 ea die (1" diameter)

My personal preference for the thread pitch would be the .8mm. With the triple start threads combined with the 14mm diameter, I think the 1mm pitch would make the threads look pretty aggressive BUT...... I was wrong back on April 18, 1992 and am due to be wrong again anytime soon!

 

[mredburn]

Sorry I forgot. this quote is for the .8 pitch thread I haventt got one for the 1mm pitch. I think the .8 will be all we need. Chime in if you have other thoughts.

 

[mredburn]

I have just cleared it with Monty so this group buy is official. I would like to let people have 3 weeks for sign up. Then place the order.

Lets cut it off July 24th thats a Sunday and I will order them Monday the 25th.
Let me know if thats a problem.

 

[TomW]

MIke,

I'm in for one tap and one die.

Tom

 

[Timebandit]

Im in for 1 tap and 1 die

Thanks

 

[rstought]

I'm in for 1 tap and 1 die.

Thanks in advance!

 

[dtswebb]

Mike -

I'll go in for one tap and one die.

Thank you.

Matthew

 

[mredburn]

I am going to open an official sign up thread for this group buy so there is no confusion.

 

[mredburn]

I have started the sign up thread.. IF you have posted an interest but not a commitment I have NOT include your name. Please check to make sure I have you on the list. I will do the outside the Us shipping it usually runs a couple dollars more for regular mail. Priority mail 11-12 dollars more.

Mike

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

You make an excellent point about using a shoulder to stop the rotation.

However I still think using a bottoming tap will eliminate most of the faint partial threads in translucent/transparent materials.

Steve

True, depending on the material used, the threads will show but the full depth threads will show a lot more than the faint partial threads so if one decides to use translucement/transparent material those are the downsides and using a bottom tap wouldn't change any of that.

I don't see the partially cut threads enlarging at all since the lower threads will never even touch them. In my opinion it is poor design to rely on the cap threads to stop the lower body from advancing or tightening into the cap. Instead, I rely on a shoulder inside the cap as a positive stop to the progress of the lower body. This way the lower threads never enter the tapering threads in the cap so there is nothing to wear out.

I still fail to see why switching to a bottom tap would be of any benefit.

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

I think pitch in the 0.7 to 0.8 mm range is fine.

I wonder whether it's possible to have the threads less deep. Basically with shallower threads, we can make the cap walls thinner and the whole pen will be lighter. I am looking at some of my name brand fountain pens and they all have rather shallow threads and thin cap walls.

Steve

Sorry I forgot. this quote is for the .8 pitch thread I haventt got one for the 1mm pitch. I think the .8 will be all we need. Chime in if you have other thoughts.

 

[mredburn]

I use the m.75 pitch threads on the pieces I make. I have some pieces that the wall thickness is 1mm or less, threaded on both sides. m8.4x.75 o/d m7.4 x .5 i/d and 1 thats m10x.5 o/d and m8.4x.75 i/d. The .75 works well for me in those ranges. The .8 pitch would be a little rough in those applications but for the caps it works well.

 

[Texatdurango]

Since the diameter of the tap is fixed, you can make shallower threads by using a slightly larger bit when drilling the initial hole or once the threads are cut you can remove several thousandths of thread by using a boring bar or any internal cutter.

Like Mike, I have made some caps with wall thickness so thin the cap will easily flex and the threads are VERY shallow but still engage well. And that's one thing I absolutely love about making my blanks from Alumilite, the material is perfect for thinwall applications with shallow threads. I don't know if this will work but if you look at my photo album, you will see some very thin wall pens..... http://www.penturners.org/photos/index.php?n=18858

Just wait 'till you get the tap and die, you'll have a lot of fun trying different shapes and sizes.

....... I wonder whether it's possible to have the threads less deep. Basically with shallower threads, we can make the cap walls thinner and the whole pen will be lighter. I am looking at some of my name brand fountain pens and they all have rather shallow threads and thin cap walls.

Steve

 

[chugbug]

Hi Mike, Been away for a few days, and just dropped in for a quck check, so didn't read all the posts. But from the first couple looks like were good to go except for the bottoming tap. Like the suggestion for making one out of the taper, so will probably try that route. So...

I'm in for: 1- set + add'l taper tap (if can get a second tap).

I guess I'm ok with the die size if everyone else wants the smaller size. I think the larger (1 1/2" size) would hold up better with less stress and torque (even on the acrylic). But if I'm out voted, it's OK as long as it will hold up. I have both sizes so I'm not looking at it as an additional cost for a new holder (although I will probably buy a dedicated holder for it anyway).

Thanks again for taking charge and the quick turnaround on the prices.

John

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
www.jebspens.com

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Like John, I also prefer a 1-1/2" die size, especially since I already have a holder in that size. But I will bow to the wishes of the majority.

Steve

 

[Timebandit]

I only have a 1" die holder and like the extra bottoming tap putting me out of this deal, the extra tooling needed for the larger die would put me out of this deal as well. All i need is the tap an die, i have everything else. If you decide to go with the 1 1/2 die please excluded me from this buy. I do not think that enough extra torgue would be exerted on this die by cutting acrylics to warrant a larger die diameter.

 

[043Turning]

IS ther a list of the threads you guys are looking at, as I would be interested - especially if someone would like to post it to AUSTRALIA

PLease Count Me IN ~~~

 

[BigShed]

Maybe I am the only one that is getting increasingly confused here?

In any case, I originally indicated that I was interested in a 14mm triple start tap and die set, having bought a 12mm triple start previously (first lot) and being happy with it.

However, this set is becoming so confusing with so many options (first tap and die set designed by a committee?:smile-big that I have firmly planted myself on the fence until I can see where this is going.

I do know that I would be reluctant to go for a 1 1/2 inch die as I would have to buy a new (or make) a new MT2 die holder for that.

 

[mredburn]

The set that is being offered is with the one inch die. the other choices are simply preferences as an option in case there is enough interest to order some of that option. Ie. the larger dies, the bottoming tap. Think of it as having color choices the main choices are black and white but there may be enough people that want blue and red. So we may order some blue and red.

The mailing to Australia is about $2.00 more for regular post about $8.00 more for priority.

The sign up thread is under the group buy forum.

 

[Texatdurango]

Maybe I am the only one that is getting increasingly confused here?

In any case, I originally indicated that I was interested in a 14mm triple start tap and die set, having bought a 12mm triple start previously (first lot) and being happy with it.

However, this set is becoming so confusing with so many options (first tap and die set designed by a committee?:smile-big that I have firmly planted myself on the fence until I can see where this is going.

I do know that I would be reluctant to go for a 1 1/2 inch die as I would have to buy a new (or make) a new MT2 die holder for that.

I was on the same fence when it came to the 1" or 1 1/2" die but today decided to just make me an adapter for my existing 1" die holder. Here are some photos of it and if you happen to have the same or similar holder, this might give you some ideas........ http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82773

 

[BigShed]

Good thinking George, I have the same die holder from the same source (the world is becoming an increasingly smaller place!).

I was originally going to make a whole new die holder, ie the whole front part including the knurled bit. No biggie, but your idea shows more lateral thinking.

One could also make you adapter to fit in to the 1" die holder and use the existing grub screws to hold it in.

Well done and thank you for sharing your work and ideas, much appreciated.

 

[Texatdurango]

Good thinking George, I have the same die holder from the same source (the world is becoming an increasingly smaller place!).

I was originally going to make a whole new die holder, ie the whole front part including the knurled bit. No biggie, but your idea shows more lateral thinking.

One could also make you adapter to fit in to the 1" die holder and use the existing grub screws to hold it in.

Well done and thank you for sharing your work and ideas, much appreciated.

Now why didn't I think of that! Would have saved some time drilling and tapping the adapter. Oh well, at least it looks cool!

 

[BigShed]

Well George your tool making started me thinking, always a life threatening exercise:biggrin:

I remembered I had actually bought a 1 1/2" die, a M14x1.5, also intended for penmaking (kitless).

So I decided to have a look at that one to see how the 1 1/2" looked size wise.

I must say I was surprised at the size of the thing and compared it to the 1" M12x0.8 triple start die I bought recently.

Here is another comparison shot

Just to put these sizes in perspective, the amount of "meat" between the clearance holes on the 1 1/2" die is 5.5mm, on the 1" die it is 2.45mm. As the 1" die is a M12 size, the amount of meat on a 1" M14 die would reduce by at least 1mm to no more than 1.45mm.

Hope this will help some people to decide whether to go for a 1" or a 1 1/2" die.

 

[Texatdurango]

Fred, Interesting photos, thanks for taking the time to shoot then post them. Boy those 1.5 pitch threads look mean!

 

[Texatdurango]

I need some advice, could someone please help me out?

As I stated earlier in the thread, I have made many many pens using the smaller 12m multi-start taps and I see no reason whatsoever for the bottom tap in addition to the taper tap BUT...... I could have been overlooking something all this time and I would like to know what I have been missing or overlooking now before we order these so........ To those ordering the bottom taps, can someone please give me some examples where you plan on using the bottom tap instead of the taper tap?

I'm assuming you will be using these only for cutting threads in the pen cap so am lost for an answer.

Thanks

 

[BigShed]

Thanks George for asking that question, I have been racking my brain as well, but didn't want to show my ignorance.

 

[Curly]

My imagined reason.

I think I want it because when you have a translucent or transparent material you will be able to see the threads inside. If you want to have 5 threads, for instance, engaged by the barrel that screws into the cap, there will be the 5 full threads plus several more fading away from the taper in the cap. If you want a crisp end to the threads in the cap you need the bottoming tap so the threads end at one place. Now if you always make pens of material you can't see through, or don't mind a little fade out, then you wouldn't have a need for the bottoming tap.

The only other way to stop the threads crisply would be to take more material from inside the cap past the threads with a boring bar in a metal lathe for a closed end cap or drill from the other side and plug the end with a finial.

 

[Texatdurango]

......I think I want it because when you have a translucent or transparent material you will be able to see the threads inside. .......

Thank you for the reply Pete, this is the only reason that I have seen so far. I do not want to counter every reason brought up but I would like to toss this out for your consideration......

I realize that in a clear or translucent situation you will see the tapering "partial threads" BUT you will also see the engaged threads as well. Just because part of the threads have the lower pen body screwed into them doesn't mean they can't be seen.

To show what I am talking about, below is a demo pen I made a couple years ago from clear acrylic. You can see all of the cap threads whether or not they have the lower body screwed into them or not. In my mind seeing "half" the threads isn't any better or worse than seeing all of the threads and using a bottom tap will still allow one to see the threads in a translucent cap.

Another thought...... In going to pen shows and seeing vintage pens, some nearly 80 years old now, there are many translucent pens out there and you can see the threads in the cap and some of these models are highly sought after so I have a suspicion that seeing the threads is not considered a flaw and is considered OK.

Not trying to convince anyone one way or another how to make their pens, I'm just trying to understand the need and if that's the only reason, I'm not sold.

While we're discussing what can and can't be seen, here is another thing folks need to consider when using lighter material. Even opaque or less translucent material still presents a problem. In the second photo below is a mockup made from delrin, and while you can't easily see the threads you can still see where the threads end and the nib section begins since the engaged threads are showing "twice the white" which abruptly ends where the black section begins then the light area of the gold nib on the top. In a completed pen this would go dark again at the top as the finial is glued or screwed in.

Here are the two photos showing the threads and the light and dark situation mentioned.......

 

[BigShed]

Good explanation there George.

IMHO a bottoming tap is only useful for tapping to the bottom of blind holes and I can't see any other reason for using one, particularly in the sort of pen making that most of us do.

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

It seems most folks who order a bottoming tap do so because they want to see as few threads as possible in those somewhat rare situations where the threads will show.

And, here is another reason for the fountain pen afficionados. Someday you may have the urge to make a safety pen and you will find a bottoming tap handy.

Steve

 

[Texatdurango]

It seems most folks who order a bottoming tap do so because they want to see as few threads as possible in those somewhat rare situations where the threads will show.

And, here is another reason for the fountain pen afficionados. Someday you may have the urge to make a safety pen and you will find a bottoming tap handy.

Steve

What is a safety pen and how will the bottom tap come in handy?

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

George:

Safety pens were among the first reservoir pen designs. It's a type of eyedropper pen. They were invented by, I believe, Waterman around the turn of the 20th century. It has a retractable nib. To use it, the nib has to be extended by a screwing action and to store it, the nib has to be fully retracted again. It's cumbersome to use, but that was the state of the art back then. The thread is found at very near the bottom of the cap and at the end of the pen barrrel. There is a little rubber or cork piece inside the the bottom of the cap to provide a seal from leaking ink.

To be clear, one would be unlikely to make the inside thread of a safety pen using a 14mm tap and die set. Probably something in the 10 mm range would work better.

Steve

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

Attached is a picture of a safety pen I bought on eBay a few years ago. The last couple of pictures show the internal corkscrew mechanism. It would be fun to make one with the 14mm tap and die set we have. You may even possibly be able to do it without using a bottoming tap. I think a 14mm diameter would be big for sure, but probably not excessively so. It will just make it more comfortable to grip. You can fit a big nib in a 14mm diameter barrel.

Steve

 

[chugbug]

STEVE said: "I think a 14mm diameter would be big for sure"

Steve, I posted one of my other pens, but here is one I recently finished that I used a similar sized threads on. The M14 set in the group buy that is currently running will allow me to add multi-start threads to these.

The only REAL difference in the pens (this vs a pen using an M12 threads) ---other than the slightly oversized cap that is a style choice-- is that it doesn't have the step down from the barrel to the threads that you would have on smaller threads.

Other options that a larger threads offers is being able to play with the nib holder styles (if you make your own). The smaller M12 threads keeps the nib holder size down pretty small and thus limits the style options. The larger threads opens up the cap diameter so you can go a little larger on the nib holder and play around with different style options.

As for the bottoming tap, attached is another pen (confetti) where the threads show through in some areas where the acrylic is clear (see the area around the bottom end of the clip). The bottoming tap would help to keep the number of threads in the cap to a minimum rather than having it twice as deep/long than would be otherwise necessary due to the taper. That (confetti) pen by the way has the M12 threads.

All in how you use them...John

Pen Specs:
Size / Length:
Capped: 6"
Uncapped: 5 3/8"
Nib: #6
Clip: 1 1/2"
Size / Dia:
Barrel: .59"
Cap: .65" (not including band).

John E. Brady
JEB's PENs
http://www.jebspens.com

 

[Borg_B_Borg]

John:

My earlier comment on 14mm being somewhat big was only in reference to the safety pen style, where the thread is located at the very end of the section. Basically the section would be from 12mm to 14mm. Personally I find a bigger section is more pleasant to grip than a smaller section. And, as I stated before, having a 14mm thread opens up the possibility of using bigger nibs.

That "cream and caramel" pen is gorgeous. You did an excellent job getting the band on and polishing it to perfection.

We are very close to getting the price break for 12 bottoming taps. We just need to convince George to join in. ;-)

Steve

 

[Texatdurango]

.........We are very close to getting the price break for 12 bottoming taps. We just need to convince George to join in. ;-)

Steve

Assuming I'm the George you're referring to....... Fat chance of that happening! :biggrin:

Actually I have nothing against the bottom taps, they serve their purpose BUT for approx $60 more, I still haven't seen the need in the pens I make and the tap would likely sit on a shelf for a long time unused. Us folks on fixed incomes have to watch our dollars pretty closely!