I've used xxx and never had any problems

[Texatdurango]

You read every day in threads where someone will ask about something, be it a type of glue, a certain material, a type of finish, combining different materials, etc. Then get several replies like... "I use xxx and have no issues" or I segment ebonite, aluminum and truestone together with no issues", or "I've never seen CA fog up metal objects like fountain nibs", etc.

Then I read in many threads where someone will describe a pen they made and when asked for a photo, they comment "Sorry, I made it last night and delivered it this morning".

Combining some of these thoughts makes me wonder how useful some of our claims and recommendations are that we pass on to each other.

When "Joe Blow" says "I use xxx glue and never have issues" or "I always glue ebonite, truestone and wood together and have never had any problems", what is he basing this on, longevity or is he really just saying "the glue held up for the day I made the pen and the next day before I mailed it off or delivered it." So two weeks or two months later, the wood shrinks or swells causing the joints to crack and the customer is long gone and "Joe" never learned of the mishap.

The reason I bring this up is that a few years ago I made a black and gaspait true stone segmented pen and it looked wonderful and the epoxy I used held very well. I actually recommended epoxy for use on true stone since I never had any problems. Almost a full year later I got an email from the buyer who said the pen was "falling apart". When I got it back and had a look I was shocked at what I saw. While the pen was still intact and all glued together, the segments had shifted enough to produce some sharp edges between the segments.

I often wonder how many assembly practices we use that "we have no issues with" (for a day or two while it's in our possession), only to find that they don't hold up in the long run? I want my pens to be something people will treasure for years and years not weeks or months.

 

[GaryMGg]

George,
As ever, you're always insightful! Very good points for consideration.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Justturnin]

Never used xxx but I have been using yyy for 2 weeks w/ no issues:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[bitshird]

I agree George, I see where there has been very minor shrinking on some checkerboard pens I did several years ago, easier to feel than see.

 

[IPD_Mr]

This should be made a sticky post. People need to really think and not take things for granted.

 

[DestinTurnings]

I base my statements on a culmination of my experience with the materials and the feedback from customers. I don't believe anyone can without a doubt say XXX is better than YYY. You may believe that but really unless you use both XXX and YYY on a constant basis and receive extensive feedback, you will never really be able to determine the best...
I think people here try to provide sound advice based on my statements above without any malice or intent to deceive.

You must also consider the huge number of variables in the entire process.
Is epoxy better than CA for segmenting? Maybe not for the person who keeps their pen on their desk and writes there...but what about the woman who leaves it in her purse in the car on scorching summer days?

Plus you are also relying on the manufacturer of the products you use to deliver a consistent, perfect product and that will not always happen.

I use the same epoxy on the same type of wood for projectiles I make for military plaques and awards. I had made at least 150 over the years and NEVER had an issue. Then one day I get a call that one of my projectiles had cracked. I figured it had been dropped or the wood checked or something. When I got it back, the three boards I used had separated at the seams and the epoxy had failed. No idea if it was the epoxy, the wood, or some other factor. Up to that exact point, I would have hardcore fought that the method I had was in fact the best one around and that there could be no better way.

I'm a little older and wiser now and realize the old adage that there is "more than one way to skin a cat" is as true today as it was when it was first spoken.

 

[TomW]

I've used George for about 3 years with no issues...:biggrin:

Sorry, someone was going to do it, so I had to hurry...

George, I think you make a good point. Buying something (from anyone) who you know will be around, and willing to help you in the future is really attractive.

These days Smith & Wesson has some quality issues, but their "forever" guarantee keeps them with a lot of satisfied customers.

Tom

 

[Dalecamino]

Now I'm really concerned about a pen I just put in the mail two days ago.

Very good point George. I'll have to reconsider construction on these types of pens. Or, eliminate them.

 

[Parson]

I've now repaired one of my first segmented pens 3 times! The aluminum just didn't remain glued to the wood and plastics with CA glue after a number of months. Epoxy? A little better.

Now I flood my segmented work with many layers of CA glue to encase them. It's helpful, but who knows?

One thing that is bugging me is that my tubes seem to work free in my closed ended work, but only after many months of daily use.

 

[DestinTurnings]

Now I'm really concerned about a pen I just put in the mail two days ago.

Very good point George. I'll have to reconsider construction on these types of pens. Or, eliminate them.

Out of how many Trustone segmented pens has made and had a problem with? Who's to say that that one lot of epoxy wasn't formulated correctly? I wouldn't eliminate an entire line of pens based on one failure. Maybe make one as a carry pen and put it through the ringer...or even two made with two different methods.

When I try something new or I have concerns about its construction or reliability, I will give the pen to my wife. If it can last in her use, I would feel 100% confident in selling it to anyone! She is like one of those people that test products to failure.:biggrin:

 

[cwolfs69]

just a reminder that we all have to take the advice we get and use it to experiment, not as gospel. We whould also weigh the advice against the advisor.

remember: "All indians walk in single file, at least the ONE i saw did"

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

As always you give us something to think about. I agree with Gary when he said your posts are insightful , thank you...

 

[HoratioHornblower]

Thank you for sharing George! I see what you are saying, but what other option do we have? Epoxy seems to be the best. I have been planning at some point to buy the West system epoxy as I have heard its the best. I have searched for better adhesives, but I never really found some. Someone please share if they know of something better!

David

 

[tim self]

Totally agree. I constructed a walnut/aluminum cigar a few years ago. I finally sold it 2 yrs ago and the lady lives in NYC. I do not know if it is climate change or just use/age and received the same notification as you. It's falling apart. Literally. Gladly repaired and haven't heard about it again. Never and Always are two bad terms in our business.

 

[Andrew_K99]

I think with everything on the internet you have to take it with a grain of salt. The views are by, for the most part at least, hobbiests that have all the best intentions when answering questions. Very few of these hobbiest are likey to have done any sort of long term testing on their methods.

AK

 

[PTownSubbie]

Thanks George! Very insightful!!

You do have to take everything you read with a grain of salt. It would be nice when someone makes a claim to qualify what it is based on.....

I always use given information with the "Your Milage May Vary" (YMMV) attitude and test it myself whenever I can.....

 

[nativewooder]

Very well said. What you make in the desert will probably last "forever" if it stays in the desert. Sell it to a client 3000 miles away, in a totally different environment, and it just might fall apart. It's a lot to consider when the only people I sell to are tourists from far far away. We just do the best we can with what we have.

 

[mrcook4570]

I have yet to see a segmented pen that didn't have 'feelable' joints or worse a year AFTER being finished.

 

[Lenny]

Excellent point George!

As someone who was self-employed for most of my adult life I can relate to what you are saying. Problems are going to arise, having a chance to make them right is all you can hope for.
In my pen making I have always encouraged customers to let me know if they have ANY problems. A few have ... some of the problems were their own doing, some not. So far nothing I haven't been able to easily rectify.

It's the ones I haven't heard about that worry me!

 

[EBorraga]

I've always had success using XXX, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express lastnight:biggrin:.

Great post George, I think trial and error phase is what seperates the pros form everyone else.

 

[Timebandit]

True George. Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens. There have been many instances over the years where someone posts some advice, but when you look to see if they have ever even posted a pen on here in the years that they have been members and they havent, i am always weary of the info. Not saying they dont know what they are talking about, but how do i know. I like to be able to look back and see if the person giving advice is in my opinion someone that should be giving information and trustworthy to do that because they have shown that they have the knowledge to do so. Just spouting information without proof to back up what you say with something to show, i think is wrong. Be careful about trusting someone who doesnt EVER show what they talk about. Kind of like trusting a scientist without seeing proof. Taking someone as an expert without knowing could lead to trouble. Check out the people you get information from.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

George does bring up a valid point. Glue is just 1 thing to think about. I have done and seen people dye wood with different products and I have wondered about the colorfastness of the dye. Also if using metal how is it going to age? I think how we answer these type of questions separates craft from art.

 

[PenPal]

George,

A saying I have heard all my life is there are two foolish people those that give advice and those that take it. The first advice I have given myself for any contribution on this site from now on will be a disclaimer IT WORKS FOR ME. Also I often spend up to an hour shuffling pics, finding or taking them to illustrate something THIS WILL CEASE the feedback is minor and I am getting behind with coping the tasks I have.

It is my intention to share in all things, never to overprice my product nearly all purchases in my price range no one guarantees a certain life or return no broken promises.

I have an 84 yr old friend lives up the road restores very old motor bikes and vintage motor bikes and cars currently restoring two one hundred year old Vellocette Motor Bikes, he does not look for the manufacturer he makes all parts he needs to reactivate them he served his apprenticship in the Sydney railways, apon retiring the Railway Dept sold him the lathes and mills etc he started his apprenticeship using as a gesture and he uses these old machines.

Why do I mention him well he is a Tradesman, qualified, experienced, when I became a member of this Forum I joined as a member no qualification in pens, no Degree in Science, etc I have used and given more than I receive and have a debt of gratitude for those kind members whos first response is I do this or that and try to avoid like the plague replies obviously based on Google definitions.

Have fun in the hobby or success in the making of pens using the quoted saying I did it my way with a little help from my friends.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[Texatdurango]

Just for grins, here is the pen I used as an example. I forgot to mention that the green marbled gaspait is true stone, the black is acrylic. You can feel and see EVERY joint where true stone bonded to acrylic (especially on the cap). Where true stone bonded to true stone you can feel and see nothing, they are still as smooth as the day I made the pen.

This sorta lets the air out of the "bad batch" of epoxy theory. Can I explain what happened..... no, I just knew that when I made it, I had no issues with epoxy! :wink:

It's no loss however, I replaced the pen and now this one sits on or around one of my desks and feels nice to write with when I need a ball point.

 

[Smitty37]

I am more taken aback by the number of posts asking for advice that get 15 answers, none of which answer the original question.

 

[renowb]

George,

A saying I have heard all my life is there are two foolish people those that give advice and those that take it. The first advice I have given myself for any contribution on this site from now on will be a disclaimer IT WORKS FOR ME. Also I often spend up to an hour shuffling pics, finding or taking them to illustrate something THIS WILL CEASE the feedback is minor and I am getting behind with coping the tasks I have.

It is my intention to share in all things, never to overprice my product nearly all purchases in my price range no one guarantees a certain life or return no broken promises.

I have an 84 yr old friend lives up the road restores very old motor bikes and vintage motor bikes and cars currently restoring two one hundred year old Vellocette Motor Bikes, he does not look for the manufacturer he makes all parts he needs to reactivate them he served his apprenticship in the Sydney railways, apon retiring the Railway Dept sold him the lathes and mills etc he started his apprenticeship using as a gesture and he uses these old machines.

Why do I mention him well he is a Tradesman, qualified, experienced, when I became a member of this Forum I joined as a member no qualification in pens, no Degree in Science, etc I have used and given more than I receive and have a debt of gratitude for those kind members whos first response is I do this or that and try to avoid like the plague replies obviously based on Google definitions.

Have fun in the hobby or success in the making of pens using the quoted saying I did it my way with a little help from my friends.

Kind regards Peter.

Exactly what Peter said...what is the warranty on pens? 6 months, a year a lifetime? I know customer service is important, but after a year?

 

[KenV]

Warrenty -- a piece of paper or a shake of a hand. One definition is

A guarantee given to the purchaser by a company stating that a product is reliable and free from known defects and that the seller will, without charge, repair or replace defective parts within a given time limit and under certain conditions.


Because I want to know about any problems or failures, I offer to fix or repair any failures as long as I am here to do it. After death, you are on your own.

I get a few, mostly abuse and wear -- and that is good information to have. I have one I have been told is coming back that "fell apart". I want to know the cause and I will make it right - up to and including providing a new pen.

I am with George -- I want to know if something is a problem and I will make it right.

 

[thewishman]

Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.

 

[Smitty37]

Yep

Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.

That is exactly why joining and fastening has been the bane of cabinet and furniture makers from time immemorial.

 

[Texatdurango]

Materials expand and contract at different rates and at varying temperatures. I cannot see how pens made with metal, acrylic and wood (or any other combinations/materials) could remain perfectly joined over time. It would violate the laws of physics.

And this is the very reason I haven't made a segmented pen in a LONG time. They are fun to make, look great..... for a while, then things start shifting around making a once beautiful pen not so attractive anymore. I have a sneaking suspicion that is why the "Stars and Stripes" lazer kits fell out of favor a few years back. About a year after making them, the stripes wanted to start moving around and cracking the CA finishes.

 

[IPD_Mr]

Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens.

This can be an entirely different subject and has been before. There are many people on here that do not post their pens for several reasons. But you are correct in playing it cautious from who you take advice.

I have had wood pens from the same species of wood, made at about the same time, stored in the same location and one will crack and the other one looks as good as the day it was made. You just cannot predict what will happen down the road and why it happened. George did what he felt was right for his customer and his conscience.

 

[pinelumber]

shifting

You know everything expands and contracts at different rates even just mixed woods. Therefore when mixing materials wood, resin, etc it is bound to shift even 1/1000 th. of an inch. you might feel it.. What we feel as a small imperfection a customer may consider the Grand Canyon.

Dennis

Pinelumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:

 

[cwolfs69]

You know everything expands and contracts at different rates even just mixed woods. Therefore when mixing materials wood, resin, etc it is bound to shift even 1/1000 th. of an inch. you might feel it.. What we feel as a small imperfection a customer may consider the Grand Canyon.

Dennis

Pinelumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:

i have more often seen just the opposite. i will rework something due to what i perceive as an imperfection and then when talking to customers i hear" you are kidding, looks great", etc. i tell people when discussing this subject, "i have to meet my standards" and that usually meets others as well. remember , my name and reputation is on the product.

 

[Timebandit]

Im also cautious about people who post advice but never show any pens.

This can be an entirely different subject and has been before. There are many people on here that do not post their pens for several reasons. But you are correct in playing it cautious from who you take advice.

I have had wood pens from the same species of wood, made at about the same time, stored in the same location and one will crack and the other one looks as good as the day it was made. You just cannot predict what will happen down the road and why it happened. George did what he felt was right for his customer and his conscience.

True, but il be honest. I guarantee that not one single person on here has every single pen of theres be something that no one else has ever seen before or tried before. Once or twice sure, but there are some that NEVER show a pen, and again im sure that they are not the most original person to ever live and invent new things to go on pens. Hiding one or two secrets how you do something (like Martin, but still shows his pens is one thing) but to mention your special secret pens and ideas and to NEVER show them is another deal entirely. And i mean never show a pen, in years of being members. I dont trust a single word from a person that wont show part of what they speak of, even if everyone else says they are legit and what they say is true. Again, would you trust the word of your doctor trying to prescribe you some medication without knowing that he is qualified to do so. Not i, i check my doctors out before they ever here my voice or see my face. Same with any information i try to absorb on here. Im not into absorbing false information. I check out everyone whos advice i am interested in on here, a little background check if you will. I know this is clique, but no pic, didnt happen

 

[PenMan1]

Excellent post, George!

As you suggested, sometimes you have problems that you didn't know you had. We do a good many shows at the same venue, year after year. We try to e-mail previous buyers from the location and invite them to bring their pens for cleaning, tune up, and free stuff (usually ink).

Seeing products that were made years ago gives you a chance to evaluate how things hold up over time and with use. Your point about segments and laser sets ring very true for us. Your post got me to thinking "how many problems do we have that the pen owner didn't make us aware of, because the pen was a gift, etc?"

Thanks again for the excellent post.

 

[renowb]

I actually had a customer from 2 years ago email me for some refills on a few AK pens I made. I told him the price and to email me his address. I sent him several refills free. He emailed and said he would pay and I said, no, it was on the house.

 

[Smitty37]

I guess it depends somewhat on what your price range is. Personally I don't worry a lot about things like what it will look like in 5/10 years.

Since I give away far more pens than I sell and I don't charge much for the ones I do sell I don't feel the need to offer a lifetime guarantee on the materials.

A 5 year old pen that shows signs of wood shrinkage or expansion can be a problem if you are trying to sell heirlooms to collectors at a high price but it is not a problem if you are giving pens to your neighbors and relatives who will probably lose it or put it in a drawer the first time the refill needs to be changed.

We do know that there are plastics that will be pretty well stable in dimension and color for long periods of time...I have pens I bought 20 years ago to give away as promo items for my tax business, and they still look brand new. But wood, antler, polyresin or other materials..... who knows?

 

[Texatdurango]

You know, we see every day where we are helping others with ideas, suggestions and remedies. If you think about it, getting others to think about what their pens are going to look like down the road, not just until they sell them really helps all of us.

When I'm at a pen show, I want people to walk by my table and see it for what it is... a table full of nice pens. What I don't want to happen is for someone walking by and thinking......... "OH, those are just some of those home made pens, I had one once and the damn thing didn't last six months before falling apart!" then walking off.

So......... when a fellow member asks for advice, rather than just saying "I've got no problems with xxx" or "I use xxx" perhaps take a few seconds to give a brief example or a reason why we do what we do.

The more we all start making quality pens that will last beyond the sale, the more credibility we give to the hand crafted pen and that helps all of us.

Just a thought! (and I've got lots of 'em )

 

[Jim Burr]

You read every day in threads where someone will ask about something, be it a type of glue, a certain material, a type of finish, combining different materials, etc. Then get several replies like... "I use xxx and have no issues" or I segment ebonite, aluminum and truestone together with no issues", or "I've never seen CA fog up metal objects like fountain nibs", etc.

Then I read in many threads where someone will describe a pen they made and when asked for a photo, they comment "Sorry, I made it last night and delivered it this morning".

Combining some of these thoughts makes me wonder how useful some of our claims and recommendations are that we pass on to each other.

When "Joe Blow" says "I use xxx glue and never have issues" or "I always glue ebonite, truestone and wood together and have never had any problems", what is he basing this on, longevity or is he really just saying "the glue held up for the day I made the pen and the next day before I mailed it off or delivered it." So two weeks or two months later, the wood shrinks or swells causing the joints to crack and the customer is long gone and "Joe" never learned of the mishap.

The reason I bring this up is that a few years ago I made a black and gaspait true stone segmented pen and it looked wonderful and the epoxy I used held very well. I actually recommended epoxy for use on true stone since I never had any problems. Almost a full year later I got an email from the buyer who said the pen was "falling apart". When I got it back and had a look I was shocked at what I saw. While the pen was still intact and all glued together, the segments had shifted enough to produce some sharp edges between the segments.

I often wonder how many assembly practices we use that "we have no issues with" (for a day or two while it's in our possession), only to find that they don't hold up in the long run? I want my pens to be something people will treasure for years and years not weeks or months.

I'm learning that time heals all ignorance George! I used a specific manufactures kit for quite a while...after a year, they suck. Used another kit for a few years...seemed good at the time, both for skill level and wow factor...now they suck. Finish, kit matching, manufacturer, skill level and attitude all play in. I hate some of the pens folks paid a lot for even a year ago, next year I'll hate the ones I made this morning. Effort and reality are powerful!

 

[DurocShark]

You know, we see every day where we are helping others with ideas, suggestions and remedies. If you think about it, getting others to think about what their pens are going to look like down the road, not just until they sell them really helps all of us.

When I'm at a pen show, I want people to walk by my table and see it for what it is... a table full of nice pens. What I don't want to happen is for someone walking by and thinking......... "OH, those are just some of those home made pens, I had one once and the damn thing didn't last six months before falling apart!" then walking off.

So......... when a fellow member asks for advice, rather than just saying "I've got no problems with xxx" or "I use xxx" perhaps take a few seconds to give a brief example or a reason why we do what we do.

The more we all start making quality pens that will last beyond the sale, the more credibility we give to the hand crafted pen and that helps all of us.

Just a thought! (and I've got lots of 'em )

Your deep thinking makes my head hurt.



Great job!