Well this site is not just for folks making pens to sell....seeing oneself as an artist or craftsman getting better at your trade is one thing. Seeing oneself as a hobby turner who likes to turn a couple of pens now and then is another.
I've used xxx and never had any problems
- Thread starter Texatdurango
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leehljp
Member Liaison
Chris, I don't quite agree with the perception of the statement, particularly the "violating the laws of physics".
When one "knows" the real risks, takes those into consideration in construction, the risks are minimized and acceptable and quality finished products over a long time period are possible. 100% working, no, but acceptable high percentages, yes.
I am on some woodworking forums and see chess and checker board sets made - in which the GRAINs of different colored woods of the board are set at 90° to each other. And many people make this with bread/cutting boards. This is usually a disaster waiting to happen. Wood moves and will move and in different directions.
BUT, if one knows this and takes it into account, and if one is well aware that veneer does not move - well then the laws of physics (not actually) change, and the mysteries of wood begin to show a different sign in veneer versus cross grained checker board cutting boards.
Know your wood (not just the name and color). Which ones move in which direction or not at all? Mesquit is one wood that does NOT move as compared to others. What is the moisture content? Is the wood stabilized? Can the wood for pens be made to take on the stability that veneer has? Yes, if you are aware of it and know how.
When making segments, are the wood pieces lined up (grain alignment)? Or, is the wood thin as veneer to prevent expansion/contraction? (Of course, was the wood dry and stabilized? It is hard to stabilize oily woods.) Some woods will make a stable veneer at 1/8 inch while others will not make a stable veneer until much thinner.
Know the orientation of the wood. When I make segments the wood grains are aligned. It is good to think through the alignment, orientation, and the resulting possibilities.
Know your metal, Which conducts heat the most? All get hot (brass and aluminum). Is there a way to decrease the heat in turning segmented metal/wood? In turning, heat is created which loosens bonds with the glue. The heat transferred to the wood will draw humidity moisture into it as it cools simply because the heat opened up the glue line a fraction of a mm, and even though the maker of the pen will think that everything is OK. This allows for contraction expansion problems later on. But it can be dealt with if one is as aware of the potential problems as much as a paranoid person is that someone is after them! :biggrin:
Know your glues. Which glue withstand heat better? Which glue gets weaker as it is tightened with a clamp before curing? Which glues leave glue lines showing?
When one knows this, one may not reach 100% or 95% perfection down the road 5 or 6 years from now, but there will be a higher percentage of pens that will not become problems.
I am sure George has made similarly designed pens that have not had that problem. Knowing George, he thinks things through from an engineering point of view, and 95% of his will be good years from now, but still things happen. Does than mean we should just stop? No.
Know your material, know the potential problems and while a perfect score with pens will not be attained, the successes will be enough to keep one going and trying.
I have had a few segmented pens with movements but the majority do not have problems from 4 to 5 years ago. That is both with the "feel" and "see" test. I look back and think that the problem was not with the wood or metal per se, but with the heat created. Again, for wood movement itself, I watch for it. I have had more "telegraphing" from knots than from moving segments.
Problems happen, but success comes from knowledge, experience and wisdom. No need to be fearful of trying something because of a bump or few bumps in the road. And there will be more bumps later down the road. Learn what can be learned and keep on advancing this art.
Problem is that most folks have neither the time nor the inclination to get a PhD in physics or material science. For instance, I know generally that most of what you said above is absolutely true (the rest is probably true as well but I don't know that it is). That being said, I certainly don't have enough time in my life to learn the specifics.
leehljp
Member Liaison
Aww, it don't take no PhD! I learned about wood movement from the first table that I made that didn't like the criss crossing of the grain! :redface: :biggrin: I wondered why veneer stayed put when laid in all directions but solid woods don't. So I started askin! (And reading.) Glues - I learned quickly that heat causes glues (household/homeshop glue) to loosen in metal to metal joints. :redface:
I have learned a lot about glues just reading on this forum. Most of what I said in my statement is from experience and then study or asking why it happens that way.pinelumber
Member
thats what I said earlier
Leehljp just said in many paragraphs what I said in 2 lines. Different materials no matter how hard you try will expand, contract and rotate at different rates causing those eventual oops!
Dennis
PineLumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:
Leehljp just said in many paragraphs what I said in 2 lines. Different materials no matter how hard you try will expand, contract and rotate at different rates causing those eventual oops!
Dennis
PineLumber:bananen_smilies104::RockOn:
leehljp
Member Liaison
No, I didn't say what you said in 2 lines. :wink: What I said was that if you know and understand those variables, you CAN make them work without the oops. Not at a 100% rate but at a pretty high rate.
Sure I have had a few loosen, but the majority of those that I made with segments are still together and they haven't slipped and you can't tell of any wood movement from those that were made 4 and 5 years ago. Look at the directions of wood along with metal strips and inlays on some fine antique guitars. They don't expand, contract, rotate and don't show the eventual oops. There are all kinds of woodworkings with inlays that are quite expensive that do not separate. So what did those folks know that seems to be missing here? That is not rocket science, just some experience.
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Haynie
Member
I was lookin at xxx material. The wife caught me now I'm sleepin on the couch. I told her George said we really needed to know our xxx material but she didn't buy that I was doing pen material research. I told her I was researchin silicon
Sorry had to say it.
Sorry had to say it.
nava1uni
Member
Good thoughts George. Makes me think about the continuing reading and learning that each pen requires. Like trying new things, but lots of them don't work but the lessons learned are good and the knowledge comes in handy.
As for pictures, some of can take them and show our work well and then there are people, like me, that take them, but they don't show well so we don't post. That is another area of learning, slow but sure.
As for pictures, some of can take them and show our work well and then there are people, like me, that take them, but they don't show well so we don't post. That is another area of learning, slow but sure.