HOLY CRAP BIG BROTHER IS COMING TO YOUR SHOP

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calabrese55

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Government regulation will change woodworking forever from your garage to the largest users of table saws.
I am not taking any shots at SAWSTOP if you like one buy one but soon big brother will make you buy a SawStop or something just like it . This video hit YouTube less than one hour ago.
calabrese55

 
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mark james

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For my 30'ish sons and nephews, I recommend to buy ONLY table saws with this technology. I fully support safety - as I support speed limits, etc...

I did view the above UTube and it only solidified my opinion - NOTE: I typically like that channel, not for this episode.
 
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maxwell_smart007

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I don't think it's like "1984" at all! Adding safety tech to table saws, especially if it's not a single company that you need to buy from, is not really at all connected with a fictional surveillance-obsessed state. I think Sawstop being required to divest their patent to other companies would be a very good thing, as it would bring the costs down on a very important piece of safety tech that's proven to save digits. I think the company choosing to do it voluntarily is something to be lauded! The only negative to Sawstop is cost...this should fix that.

If they said you can only buy Fords because they have seatbelts, that would be bad...if Ford then gave their seatbelt tech to every other car company, that would be good - I think this is in the same boat.
 

Darios

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A friend of mine's father has been a woodworker since Jesus was a non-com. Several years ago he lost his sight. He didn't let that stop him.

His Sawstop has saved his fingers at least 3 times.
 

Kenny Durrant

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I don't have a Saw Stop because of the price. I do commend their technology to make a safer tool. When my buddy bought his Saw Stop I asked about all the other tools he has. Although his s table saw is a safe tool his others are just as dangerous. As far as being forced to share their technology I'm on the fence. I agree the prices should drop if others are making the same thing but patents are in place to protect peoples ideas.
 

MRDucks2

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I think it is getting overblown. Taking Andrew's analogy, even if Ford gave away their seatbelt technology so everyone could use it would not necessarily mean no one would be able to buy a motorcycle because they cannot adapt to the seat belt.

The cost of the technology will become cheaper but saws required to use will be more expensive because of it. It will not all happen instantly but over a 3-5 year development. Both cheaper and better Technology will be developed. There will likely still be some version of a table saw without it because all classes of table saw cannot accommodate it. And I am sure someone will find some kind of loophole.

My Laguna Fusion F2 will still be running longer than i will be wanting to use it.
 

jttheclockman

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I watched the video and understand what he was saying. I do disagree with the fact that sawstop technology is the only one out there. As he mentioned Bosch developed what I think is a better mousetrap for this safety device. Their technology can be adapted more easily to lower end saws because it worked on cartridges that fired when skin contact happened but what it did was drop the blade below the table just as quickly but did not use a break. It shut the motor off and the blade came to a stop on its own. What this means is no damage to the blade, no need to buy a new break system and Bosch had I believe 3 cartridges stacked on their device. So you would only have to buy a new set of cartridges after they are used up. This not only can make the entire system cheaper but also the end factor if it is tripped. What the outcome was if it is true that saw stop rescinded their lawsuit against them when the sawstop sued Bosch. Who knows what went down there. This guys analogy it is not about money is totally wrong. It was always about money and control of the technology. Companies will need to check all laws if they get in bed with Sawstop for sure. If all this is the case then new technology will be developed and that was one thing Sawstop did not want to happen. Why the change again who knows what the deep answers are. But I always contended that if the government wants to put these regulations on things like this then what is next. Why not have this technology for routers which are just as dangerous. How about bandsaws. How about skilsaws. Whenever the government gets involved it takes away freedoms and rights. Make Sawstop share the technology so other saws can use it is fine but do not force it on people. The technology is out there and people have every right to choose to own one or not. I do agree with him when he said maybe the answer is better teaching methods
 

rherrell

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If you put a frog in a pot of cold water and slowly turn up the heat he won't know that he's being boiled to death until it's too late to jump out of the pot.

THIS is what is happening with the "slow creep" of our government, if you do some research and read a history book you know this doesn't end well.

The video states there are 40,000 table saw injuries every year, out of 360 MILLION people that equals .01%, I don't see that as a "problem".

A TRULY free man has the right to make stupid mistakes.
 

hertzogcraig

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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting sick of the government trying to tell me how I need to do everything in my life. I understand and appreciate the technology and safety features of the SawStop, but we can't all afford a saw like this. So when this happens, in the future, small guys like me, who just use their table saw for stuff around the house and small projects, won't even be able to afford to anymore. this is absurd, let me decide what safety features I can afford and want to pay for
 

johnjohnson42

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I'm about as anti big government as they come, but most of this blame should be focused on the insurance companies who are the ones that lobby for all of these "safety features". They are the main reason that we have seat belt laws today. Don't get me wrong, I wear my seat belt because I think it's a good safety measure... but by no means should I be forced to. Now I really can't decide which I detest more... big government or insurance companies... IMHO both are scams and legalized fraud. Now how do I get off this soapbox?
 
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I understand the intent behind the government trying to push this technology BUT I also feel it is a gross overreach of government. It is N.O.T. the government's responsibility to dictate safety regulations in every single home shop on earth. This is a glaring example of how the government is creeping into, literally, every single facet of our lives to control us even more.

The argument that this isn't a big deal seems narrow minded because when does it become a big deal? Will it matter when they deem ANY saw without this technology is illegal and MUST be replaced? Big Brother is arguing that they are trying to reduce injuries and blah blah blah because it will "save money" or "protect" people. Guess what, that is NOT the purpose of the federal government, or any government, for that matter. A regulation like this will serve as a diving board for forcing ALL power tools to incorporate this braking technology.

The concern I have is these incremental intrusions and regulations that just don't seem to stop or end. They just keep coming without pause and each one builds on the previous, chipping way at our independence. It is also a MAJOR infringement on SawStop and it's patented technology. Yes, SawStop said it would release it's patent should this federal regulation be implemented but is that REALLY them doing this of their own volition as a business? This certainly wouldn't be in the best interest of a for profit company that made its name on this feature more than anything else.

Oh, this will also force a MAJOR price increase of all table saws to be sold going forward. There will no long be such a thing as a less expensive saw which will hurt the world of woodworking in all of its facets. Everyone will feel this in the pocketbook whether you get a new saw or not, cause and effect make this inevitable.
 

leehljp

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There is a law called FRAND and it stands for: "fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory" - is often used in relation to technical standards that are developed through an open, consensus-based, and industry-led standardization process. This is a law that basically dictates that a company cannot charge unreasonable or high licensing fees if it (the inventing company) wants its invention to become a standard, and in which governmental standards will list it as "the standard".

This is often misunderstood by many as they see one company suing another company over technology use in some situations and pick sides for their favorite company. When a particular invention is put forth to the government to become a standard, in order for the government to push it as the standard, the company is then required to license the technology at a fair reasonable and non-discriminatory rate to all. In other words it cannot charge one fee to one company and another fee to another and deny another.

That said, I cannot not see FRAND "Standardization" becoming operative in this case unless those who write/make the law are just plain dumb. (and most are.) It doesn't sound reasonable for other inventions (such as Bosch) to not be allowed - as a single standardization is not as necessary in saws - as it is in communication technologies.
 

Dieseldoc

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It will be the end of Byrnes precision saws. I doubt if their design could be made robust enough to handle the energy absorption needed to accomodate the SawStop sensing and braking system.
Jim Byrnes pass away last year. Does any one know if Donna is still making saws and sanders?
 

NJturner

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I came really close to buying the Bosch REAXX saw when it was available as it was a way better, less expensive solution to Saw Stop. The Bosch solution did not ruin your blade, and the cartridge to fire it was reusable a couple times making it a way less expensive alternate providing the same safety. Almost immediately on the Reaxx release, the owners of SawStop sued the pants off of Bosch for supposed patent infringement and it got taken off the market. I like the idea of the SawStop technology. What I don't like is the continued litigious efforts of the owners to kill off any competition. The new proposed law would allow SawStop to continue to stop anyone from using its technology - or anything similar to it, like the Bosch Reaxx, for a period of 4 more years after the law is passed (if it is). That gives a mandate that you MUST buy SawStop to comply with the new law. Nah, I pass. I like less government and more competition. Let the market decide what it wants and from who.
 

walshjp17

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I found it ironic that after talking so much about blade guard usage near the end of his video, Stumpy cuts to a commercial and demonstrates cutting without a blade guard.
 

bsshog40

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I think the technology is great for those that want it and can afford it. Let the consumer make their own decisions. The gov't trying to mandate this on people is just another over-reach of power on its citizens. As mentioned, there are plenty other tools in most shops that are just as dangerous. I would bet that 99.9% of these accidents reported are operator error. Accidents can be avoided if people utilize the safety equipment provided with the tool, always conscious of what they are doing and only use the tool for what operation it was designed for. It's not rocket science to determine if a tool is able to cause harm to you if you are not using it properly or not using safety equipment while operating it. Remind me again why they put "Not Edible" on laundry detergent labels???
 

jrista

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I read about this a week or so ago. First, I don't think this is an overreach. I'm very constitutional in my politics: Limited Government! Enumerated powers! States rights! etc. That said, one of the few areas where I think the government getting involved, is when it comes to true, legitimate, and critical safety issues. So in this case, I think such legislation is ok, and should improve safety across the board. The only thing I hope, is that its done properly, and not with some kind of weird twist or corruption that somehow creates a profit center for one particular individual or entity or anything like that.

Segue from that...one of the reasons I don't own a SawStop, is because the guy who patented all the technology that (in particular) makes detecting anything that would warrant breaking the blade (however that may be done, there are different approaches, I prefer Bosch's design as it is non-destructive), once he held all the patents, lobbied to get laws passed to force the technology on everyone, which would have been a major windfall for him. If he had patented the technology then made it cost-effective for everyone to use it, and encouraged its use that way, that would have been one thing, but to try and influence law and get laws passed that would force his patented technology on everyone, is beyond the pale IMO. Thankfully, most of his patents are expired, the remaining are going to be expired by 2026 (AFAICT), so the market will have the freedom to not only PROVIDE table saw safety, but also INNOVATE without all the risks of patent lawsuits that have stifled the industry for the last 20 some years. It also appears that SawStop, now that their patents are all but expired already anyway, is "giving" one of the key patents to the industry for free (for the next two years that it will apply at most anyway.)

If we hadn't had a patent lawyer come along, during an era of very lax patent application rules allowing for overly-broad patents to be filed and granted, and then try to strong-arm the industry into buying and using said technology, that was being sold at an exorbitant rate (8%, which was clearly too much for the industry to swallow), table saw safety would have probably been a natural, organic occurrence that came into the market on its own over the last 20 years...and would have been in most table saws by now anyway, given its something people definitely want (maybe not all, the smaller job site saws probably wouldn't have seen any kind of organic adoption of safety technology except as a premium option, I figure.) Legislation might not have been needed.


EDIT:

Just got to the end part of the video in the OP. The point he makes about potential lawsuits if you let someone else use your old table saw that does not have flesh sensing tech. Now that, is the kind of problem that I think government regulations create when they don't think things through. There should be an exception for all old table saws that prevents such lawsuits from occurring...it should not become the liability of an owner of an older table saw to deal with an unsafe user.
 
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bsshog40

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I read about this a week or so ago. First, I don't think this is an overreach. I'm very constitutional in my politics: Limited Government! Enumerated powers! States rights! etc. That said, one of the few areas where I think the government getting involved, is when it comes to true, legitimate, and critical safety issues. So in this case, I think such legislation is ok, and should improve safety across the board.
Nothing wrong with the Gov't legislating safety for the public in a public environment. When they start mandating what tools I am able to use at my own private shop or home, that's Overreach!!
 

leehljp

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Now for the future:
Safety is safety and that covers a lot of territory. There is Safety built into equipment, then there is the safety-consciousness built into our own mindset!

I can see something happening sometime in the future because of the SawStop technology being mandated. A few of our children and grandchildren will grow up watching dad (and or mom) or grand dad using a SawStop type of saw and never know a table saw without it. Then one day one of our grandkids, seeing a saw somewhere in an old shop, along with a couple of teenage buddies, turn the old saw on and cut a finger or hand off because they never knew that safety starts with the mind - they will never give a thought that there is such a thing is a saw without safety technology . . . all because they never knew anything existed but safe saws. Safety begins in the mind no matter what!
 

RunnerVince

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If you put a frog in a pot of cold water and slowly turn up the heat he won't know that he's being boiled to death until it's too late to jump out of the pot.
The concept when applied to humans (where government is the "water") is sound. However, the frog in water analogy is not actually true. The frog gets uncomfortable and will try to get out of the water long before the temperature becomes deadly. Hopefully we can be as smart as the frog.
 

Darios

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Now for the future:
Safety is safety and that covers a lot of territory. There is Safety built into equipment, then there is the safety-consciousness built into our own mindset!

I remember 4 some decades ago listening to the guy across the street ranting and wailing about der ebil gubbmint and muh freedoms!!!because Nevada passed laws mandating motorcycle helmets and seatbelts.
Oh no... the tyranny!
 

jttheclockman

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The sawstop technology is only as good as the person who turns it on. many things other than fingers can trigger this and then people may want to turn off because it is a big expense when it does trigger. I know here comes the analogy of hospital visits. Working around power tools alone should trigger that safety mentality and if it does not then it is your fault and not some saw.
 

RGABEL

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I watched some clips of the hearing and there was a point where is was being a real a$$ to the legal counsel for the other saw manufacturers. He started telling stories of some individuals that were injured and how their hopes and dreams were ruined by an injury from a table saw. He asked her, what would you like to say to them? After hearing the description I said to myself I have 3 questions?
1) Were you using the saw as intended by the manufacturer? (Likely yes, but I see people doing coping cuts on table saws)
2) Were all of the supplied safety guards in place when using the saw? (From one description I would highly suspect the answer to be no)
3) Why did you not purchase a SawStop table saw?

The 3rd question is the big one. As much as I would like to have the SawStop features, I am not in the position to spend an extra $1,000.00 for a SawStop. (Using a 1.75HP cabinet saw comparison).
 

GaryMGg

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3) Why did you not purchase a SawStop table saw?

The 3rd question is the big one. As much as I would like to have the SawStop features, I am not in the position to spend an extra $1,000.00 for a SawStop. (Using a 1.75HP cabinet saw comparison).

Would you sue a manufacturer because you injured yourself on the saw you purchased because you personally could not justify|spend the extra $1000?

I don't think the technology is the problem—it's the lawyers!
 

RunnerVince

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Government overreach aside, I don't think this will affect things as negatively as people think. Saw manufacturers will not sacrifice revenue from the low-end saw segment. They will very quickly figure out how to include the safety features into a saw that costs $300-$400 because they know a lot of people will not buy any saw if they can't get an inexpensive one. The question is whether they can include flesh-sensing technology without making changes that create other safety hazards.
 

PreacherJon

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First thing to point out is this is based on the NPR. Which is a false narrative rag. Can't trust a word from NPR. I put the following up on the stumpy's page, but no comments.

From the Journal of Hand Surgery Global

Article:

Epidemiology of and Risk Factors for Table Saw Injuries of the Hands and Fingers, pub. 2023

Some highlights from the study/article:

-"This study identified several critical factors that contribute to saw injuries. To date, the literature has primarily focused on table saw injuries; however, skill or circular saw injuries have been found to cause the most injuries."

-"Additionally, greater than 40% of the patients reported having formally trained others on the use of the same saw. These findings could be attributed to carelessness or fatigue, given the extensive experience, or an inevitably increased risk of injury with an increased number of uses of saws. Interestingly, 15.9% of the patients reported a previous saw-related injury. Regardless, these findings highlight the need for continuing education, even for users with extensive experience."

-"Another factor that contributed to the injuries was dull saw blades, with two patients subjectively stating that this was the primary factor for their injury. Approximately 60% of the patients reported being aware of regular saw blade changes. Saw users need to be educated on when and how to change blades. The recommendations by several manufacturers on the frequency of blade changes are variable; however, many recommend changing it when dull. Dull blades can bind and cause the material being cut to pull the nondominant hand toward the blade. Although this seems obvious, more formalized training on signs that the blade is becoming dull (eg, binding material while cutting) could help decrease injuries."

-"The injuries in this study almost exclusively occurred on the nondominant hand."

I feel the overall article suggests that competency and alertness of the saw being used would be the greatest asset to stop injuries.
 

KenB259

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You know they used to teach woodworking in high school, I'm willing to bet many of us had that opportunity. Younger people, interested in getting into woodworking, I'm afraid, will turn to social media for tips and tricks, most of which I've seen make me shudder. I've seen cove cuts, circle cutting, crosscutting utilizing both the fence and miter gauge at the same time, the list goes on. I believe education is the key here. Now as far as SawStop protecting their patents, I don't think that should be a surprise. I did watch the video and it was brought out, SawStop dropped their lawsuit against Bosch, but Bosch decided to not pursue their version. Seems like there's more to that story. I don't have a SawStop but I believe they have an override switch. So even if you have one and decide to be an idiot, you could still have an accident. No clear cut answer here., I guess we'll have to wait and see.
 
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bsshog40

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I guess if saw stop ever does get mandated, we'll all have to keep a ton of hotdogs in our shop so we can test the saw before each use to make sure it's still working. Lol
 

PreacherJon

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I guess if saw stop ever does get mandated, we'll all have to keep a ton of hotdogs in our shop so we can test the saw before each use to make sure it's still working. Lol
They have to have turn-off switches. Aluminum and wood with a certain moisture content will trigger it as well. So, this is about money to SawStop, not safety. It'll be turned off like the 'safety" apparatuses that already come with saws that are not put on.
 

Woodchipper

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I prefer to cut my hot dogs with a knife which is a dangerous tool, too. Using the SS would contaminate the food with sawdust which can be carcinogenic. Seat belts? Good idea if they are used. They helped me once. OTOH, my aunt was in a wreck and thrown out of the car and landed in soft mud. State trooper said if she was in the car, she would have been killed. Who knows? My father said if you knew you were going to fall down, you would sit down so you wouldn't hit so hard.
Anyway, where does it all end? Or will it end?
 

Woodchipper

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"I don't think the technology is the problem—it's the lawyers!"
I have to agree. There is a billboard for injury lawyers: We got over one billion dollars for our clients. Question: what % did they get? How did it affect the policy holders' premiums? Ahh, meshuggah!
 

jrista

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I guess if saw stop ever does get mandated, we'll all have to keep a ton of hotdogs in our shop so we can test the saw before each use to make sure it's still working. Lol
I don't think it will be "sawstop" that gets mandated. Just the flesh sensing technology and a safety feature that triggers based on it. As someone else mentioned, there is a lot of dire news about this...but, these companies are in business to make money. They won't allow this to hurt their bottom lines, and they will find ways to make the technology cost effective in the long run.
 
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Darios

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I don't think it will be "sawstop" that gets mandated. Just the flesh sensing technology and a safety feature that triggers based on it. As someone else mentioned, there is a lot of dire news about this...but, these companies are in business to make money. They won't allow this to hurt their bottom lines, and they will find ways to make the technology cost effective in the long run.
"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired: For in the Course of Things, Men always grow vicious before they become Unbelievers"
- Jonathan Swift, 1721
 
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