Different Pen Kits (question from a novice)

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
Hello IAP fellowship,

I have a question for you all

Currently I have the following bushings and equipment to make these three styles.

1. (Woodcraft) Slimline.
2. (Woodcraft) Cigar.
3. (Woodcraft) Wallstreet.

Is there any way I can use the bushings from these styles into other pen kits? I understand alot of bushings are specific to where you but the kit (is this correct?)

I would like to purchase a few new kits and want to make sure I buy correct ones before I place an order. Am I restricted to only placing orders via woodcraft? Any help would be great, sorry if I have not given enough information here.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

FGarbrecht

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
618
Location
NY
There is an IAP app that lists measurements of all known pen kits in the visible universe, you can use that info to figure out what pen kits could work with your bushings. The info is also available as text (pdf) files in the resources section here, but the app is easier to use.

Better yet, learn how to turn between centers and use a digital caliper to size your pen blanks. That way you never have to worry about having bushings around. Do a search, there is a lot of info on turning between centers. Good luck.
 

Edgar

New Member Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
6,900
Location
Alvin, TX 77511
Your Wall Street II bushings will work with many kits from a number of suppliers. The Woodcraft WS II is just their own name for the popular Sierra pen kit by Berea. Virtually all suppliers sell the Sierra either under the Berea name or their own name. There are also many variants of that kit under different names with styling differences, but still using the same bushings.

The slimline and cigar bushings will also fit similar kits from most suppliers.

As Fred suggested, get the IAP Bushings & Tubes app to make cross-checking easy.
 

magpens

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
15,911
Location
Canada
I agree with Frederick ... turning between centers (TBC) without any bushings is the recommended way to go.
But maybe you are not quite ready for that.
Seems that you want more variety of kits using the bushings you already have.

1. Your Woodcraft Slimline bushings will work with any manufacturer's slimline pen kits (not the Slimline Pro from PSI)
2. Your Woodcraft Cigar bushings will PROBABLY work with other manufacturer's Cigar pen kits, but not any non-cigar kits
The Cigar bushings are a set of 4 and they are all of different size ... that's the way a Cigar pen characteristic shape is achieved.
3. Your Woodcraft Wallstreet bushings will work with the Sierra pen kit, the Gatsby pen kit, and MAYBE the Manhattan pen kit.
(There are two or three so-called Manhattan pen kits and you have to be sure to buy the right one styled same as the Wallstreet.)
They should also work with the Virage pen kit.

That's it !! . You don't have a lot of choice with the particular bushing sets that you already have.

For any other pen kits, you will have to buy the the appropriate bushings for those kits as specified by the manufacturer.

Using the IAP app data that has been referred to above is not as easy as it should be. . There are omissions in the data and there are even a few mistakes in the data. . Also, you need quite a bit of pen-making experience under your belt in order to use the data competently. . You will also need a GOOD set of metal calipers in order to measure the parts in your pen kits yourself in order to get correct matching between various kits and their appropriate bushings. . This is partly because of various quirks in the normal pen-maker's language when referring to sizes of various parts.
For example, the slimline pens make use of a so-called 7 mm brass tube, and you are advised to drill your holes with a 7 mm drill bit.
In actual fact, the brass tube has a size which is 6.something millimeters. . Increasing the drill size to 7 mm allows for ensuring a fit after you have added glue to the brass tube (and for other reasons). . In the case of your Woodcraft Wallstreet, the recommended drill size is 27/64" diameter and this is also over-sized for the same reason. The 27/64" drill is actually 0.422" diameter, but the brass tube for the Wallstreet is only 0.411".
So you have to have a bit of experience and know what you are doing when you try to cross-match bushing sets to pen kits which they are formally not initially intended to match up with.

On top of that, most of the pen kit manufacturers don't even tell you the exact sizes of the pen parts in their kits or the exact sizes of the bushings that they sell. . This situation is extremely frustrating for a newbie. . The IAP app for Bushing and Tube sizes has been a years-long effort to rectify this situation and it has come a long way towards doing this but it still is not a "completed work" and there are gaps in the data as I have already mentioned.

You can see that learning to make your pens with the TBC method is advisable. . You should search the "Resources" section of this website and read the articles about TBC in order to learn about that method. . You should also continue to ask questions in this forum until you build up your own knowledge base to the point where you have confidence in what you are doing.

One last comment. . There is a company called Penn State, with website ... www.PennStateInd.com ... This company does a superior job, compared to most other companies, in providing instruction sets with every single pen kit that they sell. . They also provide measurements for the lengths of the brass tubes, a central part in all pen kits, and they provide measurements for MOST of their bushing sets. . In some cases these measurements are only close approximations but at least they are "close" whereas other manufacturers don't even give any numbers.
However, it must be said that many PSI pen kits are quite different in styling and size from other manufacturers and so the PSI bushings do not transfer to pen kits from other manufacturers. . So although they do a good job of providing instructions with sizing information, that information can be relied on for only the PSI family of pen kits .... in most cases. . Having said that, their slimline pen kits (but not the Slimline Pro) do use bushings of a common size with other manufacturers of slimlines, and their Gatsby pen kits do have bushing sizes the same as the Berea Sierra pen kits, and the Woodcraft Wallstreet pen kits, and some kits named Manhattan, plus some other kits that use the 27/64" drill size.
 
Last edited:

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
Thanks everyone for the reply. I have the app for the bushings but as a dunce I find it tough to understand that. As for turning between centers. I think this may be out of my depth currently. I appreciate the help and have some wonderful responses to go ahead and look at getting some more kits into the home. Thanks everyone

Maybe time to start failing at TBC until I learn!
 

penicillin

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
1,036
@FGarbrecht makes a very good suggestion. The $0.99 IAP app has the bushing sizes for most pen kits. It is available for iPhone (iOS) and Android. You can look up your pen kits and then search on the bushing sizes to see other pen kits that use them. Make sure to check all bushings in a given pen kit, not just one.

(Voice of Experience: Compare the app bushing sizes with the instructions that come with your pen kits, too! They don't always match. Sometimes the printed copy is out-of-date, you never know.)

The app has a nifty fraction/decimal/metric conversion utility, too. I like how it finds the nearest fraction and shows the error difference.

Regarding pen kit equivalents, it is a mess. It reminds me of the mattress industry, where many sellers have the same mattress from the same factories, but every store gets a proprietary stitching pattern on top and calls it by a different name. It makes comparison shopping nearly impossible for the buyer.

In general, bushings are the same size for pen kits with the same family name from the same source (e.g., "Wall Street II" from Woodcraft). Finishes vary, pen types vary (twist vs. click vs. pencil), but the bushings are usually the same. If you are thinking about buying a particular pen style in the same family, check the online instructions to see the bushing sizes, just to be sure.

Retail stores like Woodcraft buy their pen kits from various sources and give them proprietary names. The same pen kit may be available elsewhere under a different name.

To add confusion, the equivalent pen kits from different manufacturers are not always a perfect match, due to manufacturing tolerances. Sure, the bushing sizes are the same, but when you mix tubes and kit parts, they may not assemble quite right - parts may be loose or tight. I learned that with Rockler's Manhattan and Gatsby pens. I made a Gatsby pen with Manhattan tubes, and the Gatsby kit parts pushed into the Manhattan tubes easily by hand. A drop of thread locker or CA glue fixes that. Pen kit tolerances are tight, and there are slight differences between products of "matching size" from different manufacturers.

Slimlines are slimlines. They should be equivalent bushings across many sources. Gatsby/Manhattan/Wall Street II should be equivalent. I don't do fat pens, but others will chime in about Cigar pens. I shop at Rockler, and their cigar pens are called "Cuban", but I have never made one.

Most of the "Which pen kits are equivalent?" knowledge comes from lurking here, searching the internet, and experience. Mostly the latter.
 

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
I have been lurking here since I joined and I have learned alot. I have a digital caliper to measure the blank before assembly, Never tried to do it between centers yet. I may branch out and look to expand pen kits and see how things go. I really appreciate all the help
 

1shootist

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
818
Location
Frisco,Tx
I have been lurking here since I joined and I have learned alot. I have a digital caliper to measure the blank before assembly, Never tried to do it between centers yet. I may branch out and look to expand pen kits and see how things go. I really appreciate all the help
Doing the first one without the guide of bushings is a little nerve racking, but you can do it. Just go slow. When you start getting closer to the desired size keep in mind you can leave it a bit proud and use sandpaper to bring it down to the size you want.
 

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,177
Location
NJ, USA.
I suggest if you are using bushings and there is nothing wrong with that, just buy the bushings with whatever kit you buy. It is such a small price to pay and you will have for lifetime. Just make sure you keep marked in some fashion so they do not get mixed up. People have all kinds of clever ways of storing them and am sure you can come up with something. Learning to turn between centers is a broad term and I see used many different ways here and to me when people do that it can be confusing for newbies. You can turn between centers using bushings designed to without a mandrel. You can turn between centers using no bushings. You can turn between centers using stock bushings if drilled properly.
 

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
Thanks I have been reading about turning between centers just now and think I may need to learn more and possibly buy parts to start that.

I currently have a case with all the pen kits labelled and bushings labelled for ease of access. I am just reluctant to buy a new bushing set when I can easily use one of my bushings I already own.
 

FGarbrecht

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
618
Location
NY
One other point of caution is to measure your bushings and make sure they are appropriately sized for your pen kit. Just because a bushing set is sold to you for a particular kit doesn't mean that they are actually 'as billed'. I have had one bushing set I purchased for a particular kit that was just wrong and I didn't figure it out until I had already screwed up a set of blanks and tubes. Measure everything twice! There is also some degree of slop in bushing diameters so be aware of that as well and be prepared to compensate for it if necessary.
 

FGarbrecht

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
618
Location
NY
Thanks I have been reading about turning between centers just now and think I may need to learn more and possibly buy parts to start that.

I currently have a case with all the pen kits labelled and bushings labelled for ease of access. I am just reluctant to buy a new bushing set when I can easily use one of my bushings I already own.
It is likely that the only thing you might need to buy to start turning between centers is a dead center for the headstock. Many lathes are supplied already with a tailstock live center, so you may already have that. The live center in its simplest form is just a piece of round stock with an MT taper (MT2 for most/many lathes) and a sharp 60 degree point on the other end. They are cheap; you can easily make your own if you own a metal lathe already. If you don't have a metal lathe, you should get out there and spend some of the Christmas money you've got left over. :)
 

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,177
Location
NJ, USA.
One other point of caution is to measure your bushings and make sure they are appropriately sized for your pen kit. Just because a bushing set is sold to you for a particular kit doesn't mean that they are actually 'as billed'. I have had one bushing set I purchased for a particular kit that was just wrong and I didn't figure it out until I had already screwed up a set of blanks and tubes. Measure everything twice! There is also some degree of slop in bushing diameters so be aware of that as well and be prepared to compensate for it if necessary.
This is a good point especially if you want to step up your game and have pens with no transition gaps or lips between blank and components. Each kit should be measured in case parts have more or less plating on them than another kit of the same kind. Bushings wear from hitting with tools but do not let that stop you from using. I prefer a bushing to be overcut so that i can get to the right measurements of the kit. To me I always use bushings and always will. They are a guide and that is all. The digital caliper is your friend.
 

ebrown7780

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
14
Location
Charleston SC
I make and sell hundreds of pens every year. I purchase 90% of all I make from Exotic Blanks. Check out their site at exoticblanks.com. This is one site where you can get discounts for the more you buy. Their fill rate is really good and Ed & Dawn are great to work with. They usually ship orders the same day as the order is placed.
 

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
this was the site I was looking at. Alot of people here vouch for them highly however I wanted to make sure I could use the Kits.
 

mmayo

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
2,966
Location
Tehachapi, CA
Your Wall Street II bushings will work with many kits from a number of suppliers. The Woodcraft WS II is just their own name for the popular Sierra pen kit by Berea. Virtually all suppliers sell the Sierra either under the Berea name or their own name. There are also many variants of that kit under different names with styling differences, but still using the same bushings.

The slimline and cigar bushings will also fit similar kits from most suppliers.

As Fred suggested, get the IAP Bushings & Tubes app to make cross-checking easy.

All that has been said is good advice.

Be careful with the Cigar bushing, check the IAP bushing AP for the brand of cigar you gave. Lastly use a caliper on the kit you bought and compare the measurements for the bushing.
 

howsitwork

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Messages
2,327
Location
Thirsk
I must admit I make my own and that part of the appeal for me but I have a metal working lathe as well as a wood working one. I measure the kit parts first and then check a few to make sure they're common size for a batch. To do this I use my digital vernier calipers . I also have been known to check using a micrometer off peace of mind but that probably over the top really.
Not got to the extent some have on here of making my own hardware, clips, threaded inserts etc but maybe some day .
 

howsitwork

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Messages
2,327
Location
Thirsk
Sorry should add I like bushings as they get me to the ball park, for the home straight , depending upon the tolerances you are working to callipers are your friend or , if very keen a micrometer gives you that final surety.
 

magpens

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
15,911
Location
Canada
Just a word of caution about the live center as described here:

It is likely that the only thing you might need to buy to start turning between centers is a dead center for the headstock. Many lathes are supplied already with a tailstock live center, so you may already have that. The live center in its simplest form is just a piece of round stock with an MT taper (MT2 for most/many lathes) and a sharp 60 degree point on the other end. They are cheap; you can easily make your own if you own a metal lathe already. If you don't have a metal lathe, you should get out there and spend some of the Christmas money you've got left over. :)

In my opinion, you will need to buy a live center for the tail stock unless it came with your lathe. . It's a necessity for most lathe work except drilling.
It is certainly a necessity for pen making, whether you use the mandrel method or the turning between centers method.

Frederick might be referring to making your own dead center, which is perhaps a practical thing to do, but just in case he was referring to making your own live center, I will add the following paragraph.

The live center needs to be able to rotate around the turning axis ... that important property is in fact why they are called "live".
They are not actually "cheap", at least according to my version of "cheap". . They include a bearing, in order to have the ability to rotate.
That means a price of around $50 or more. . At one end they have a MT2 taper (or sometimes a MT1 taper) to match your tailstock. . Check with your lathe vendor for which live center you need. . You can view live centers for metal working lathes at www.littlemachineshop.com. . At the end which faces the headstock they have a 60 degree point. . The idea is for the headstock to provide the rotational motion to your work piece, and for the tailstock to not inhibit that rotation (hence the bearing) but provide only horizontal force accurately focused on the turning axis of the lathe.
I would not think that you could easily make your own even if you own a metal-working lathe. . The angle of the point does not have to be 60 degrees, but that is by far the most commonly available. . A smaller angle could be better for pen-making when turning between centers.
 
Last edited:

FGarbrecht

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
618
Location
NY
Just a word of caution about the live center as described here:



In my opinion, you will need to buy a live center for the tail stock unless it came with your lathe. . It's a necessity for most lathe work except drilling.
It is certainly a necessity for pen making, whether you use the mandrel method or the turning between centers method.

Frederick might be referring to making your own dead center, which is perhaps a practical thing to do, but just in case he was referring to making your own live center, I will add the following paragraph.

The live center needs to be able to rotate around the turning axis ... that important property is in fact why they are called "live".
They are not actually "cheap", at least according to my version of "cheap". . They include a bearing, in order to have the ability to rotate.
That means a price of around $50 or more. . At one end they have a MT2 taper (or sometimes a MT1 taper) to match your tailstock. . Check with your lathe vendor for which live center you need. . You can view live centers for metal working lathes at www.littlemachineshop.com. . At the end which faces the headstock they have a 60 degree point. . The idea is for the headstock to provide the rotational motion to your work piece, and for the tailstock to not inhibit that rotation (hence the bearing) but provide only horizontal force accurately focused on the turning axis of the lathe.
I would not think that you could easily make your own even if you own a metal-working lathe. . The angle of the point does not have to be 60 degrees, but that is by far the most commonly available. . A smaller angle could be better for pen-making when turning between centers.
I was writing too fast, thanks for the correction. I was indeed talking about a dead center for the headstock (which isn't too hard to make) and a live center for the tailstock (which would not be easy to make ). My bad.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,534
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
I make and sell hundreds of pens every year. I purchase 90% of all I make from Exotic Blanks. Check out their site at exoticblanks.com. This is one site where you can get discounts for the more you buy. Their fill rate is really good and Ed & Dawn are great to work with. They usually ship orders the same day as the order is placed.


THANK YOU!!
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,534
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
It will fit all of these, EXCEPT the sierra diverse!!!!

 

Edgar

New Member Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
6,900
Location
Alvin, TX 77511
.......
Using the IAP app data that has been referred to above is not as easy as it should be. . There are omissions in the data and there are even a few mistakes in the data. . ..

Mal

We are currently working on a major update to the app database. We know what kits need to be added, but please send me any errors in the existing data that need correction.

Thanks
Edgar
 

Edgar

New Member Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
6,900
Location
Alvin, TX 77511
Thanks everyone for the reply. I have the app for the bushings but as a dunce I find it tough to understand that. As for turning between centers. I think this may be out of my depth currently. I appreciate the help and have some wonderful responses to go ahead and look at getting some more kits into the home. Thanks everyone

Maybe time to start failing at TBC until I learn!

The app includes a manual that can be viewed, printed, or emailed. Just tap on the IAP logo to call it up, then tap the document icon to view it or one of the buttons at the bottom of the page to print or email it.

Let me know if you have any questions that the manual doesn't answer.

(Swipe right on iOS to dismiss the manual.)

Edgar
 

Edgar

New Member Advocate
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
6,900
Location
Alvin, TX 77511
@Edgar

Thank you for your comment "addressed" to me. . I have started a "Conversation" with you about this topic.

Thanks for your input, Mal. We always appreciate any suggestions for additions or corrections to the charts as well as suggestions for improving the app.

Edgar
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Cheap dead center with good quality. Similar available from Amazon for a bit more but faster delivery.


And a live center:


I have both of these and they work great.

Danny



Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app
 

Hippoc07

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
27
Location
St Louis
I am really impressed that this group can have so much time for a complete starter to this hobby. Thank you all so much for every comment helping me to start using more Pen Kits
 
Top Bottom