Celtic knot take 2

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duderubble

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So I lied. Using the guidance I got here (thanks everyone!) I used the cut partway through method. I don't have the patience to make jig or a sled so I used the miter dohickey on my saw. Seems to have worked well. It's straight and even all the way around (good enough for government work). So the only problem with this one was I was so happy the knit was good I was afraid to turn it thinner and it looks a little bottom heavy. Like a fat bottomed Irish girl.

Wood is cherry I think. Veneer still maple and walnut but four pieces was a better fit.
 

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jttheclockman

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Now that you did them both ways which way do you prefer?? Looks better and you are getting there. A jig will take most of the little errors out so if you plan on this it would be wise to make something quick that has a stop and hold down clamps and you will see even more improvement.
 

duderubble

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Now that you did them both ways which way do you prefer?? Looks better and you are getting there. A jig will take most of the little errors out so if you plan on this it would be wise to make something quick that has a stop and hold down clamps and you will see even more improvement.
I'm pretty happy with this one. I doubt I'll make many more. It was something I wanted to try. If I was going to make a bunch I'd do a Jig to simplify the process. I have other things I want to do. Inlay is up next I think.
 

mark james

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Very nicely done. And as you discovered, with a few tweaks, the "Knot" is very easily done. 🤫 🤭 ;) .

Now to progress to inlays - nice choice!👍
 

mnerland

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So I lied. Using the guidance I got here (thanks everyone!) I used the cut partway through method. I don't have the patience to make jig or a sled so I used the miter dohickey on my saw. Seems to have worked well. It's straight and even all the way around (good enough for government work). So the only problem with this one was I was so happy the knit was good I was afraid to turn it thinner and it looks a little bottom heavy. Like a fat bottomed Irish girl.

Wood is cherry I think. Veneer still maple and walnut but four pieces was a better fit.
Nice job! Looks like you have mastered the "dohickey". That's kinda what it's all about. What works for you! You'll get great training and advice here, but when someone starts talking "micrometers and microscopes" it starts to lean away from woodworking....in my opinion. There was alot of fine woodworking done 200-300 years ago without the power tools we use today.
 

ramaroodle

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Now you can see the bad thing about this method though. Now you have glue lines either because the kerf was too big or the insert wedged the gap open. I think if you get the alignment thing fixed you got better results with your first method because your edges were crisp and you had no
glue lines. I was thinking about trying your method next time if I can get the alignment right.
Capture.JPG
 

duderubble

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Now you can see the bad thing about this method though. Now you have glue lines either because the kerf was too big or the insert wedged the gap open. I think if you get the alignment thing fixed you got better results with your first method because your edges were crisp and you had no
glue lines. I was thinking about trying your method next time if I can get the alignment right.
View attachment 240060
I tell myself because the walnut is dark no one but a pen geek knows that isn't just darker grain in the walnut. 😂
 

magpens

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There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....

Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops".

What do things look like on the other side of the pen ?

Can you remember the order of your cuts/insertions ?

I would be interested to know, please ... if it's not too much trouble ... even just a verbal report would be helpful.
 

jttheclockman

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There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....

Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops".

What do things look like on the other side of the pen ?

Can you remember the order of your cuts/insertions ?

I would be interested to know, please ... if it's not too much trouble ... even just a verbal report would be helpful.
This is what I was talking about when you cut in order or if you cut using the opposite sides order.

Guy, what Mal is asking how did you cut the sides numbered 1-2-3-4 straight around the blank, or did you stagger 1 and 2 is 180 degrees opposite it. 3 and then 4 opposite that??
 

duderubble

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There is something interesting and rather attractive about this example ....

Looking at the picture presented, there are 4 "cross-unders" ... the 4 "straights" all cross under the 2 "loops".

What do things look like on the other side of the pen ?

Can you remember the order of your cuts/insertions ?

I would be interested to know, please ... if it's not too much trouble ... even just a verbal report would be helpful.
I did opposite sides. So one side then its opposite. For the final two i just picked one of the remaining sides to do first.

Here's the other side.
 

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magpens

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WOW !!! . I think that is fantastic .... on this side we have 4 cross-OVERS, whereas we had 4 cross-UNDERS on the first side you showed.

I VERY MUCH like that result !!!!!

Congratulations !!!! . You have achieved something that I have long wanted to actually see !!!!!

THANK YOU for this additional picture !!!
 

jttheclockman

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Mal this is what you see when you do that as in the same thing with my 2 I had shown on his first knot thread. the red and yellow sierra and the black and aluminum one. They are done with opposite sides. If you do in order the bands alternate.Sorry I have no example because I do not do them that way but there are examples in segmented forum. Maybe I will borrow one and show it.

From Dogrunner who makes some beautiful knots. Hope does not mind me borrowing his photo from the segmenting forum

 
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ramaroodle

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I did opposite sides. So one side then its opposite. For the final two i just picked one of the remaining sides to do first.

Here's the other side.
So, then that's not what made your original from the other day be misaligned? (cuz I still think that one turned out better overall)
 

duderubble

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So, then that's not what made your original from the other day be misaligned? (cuz I still think that one turned out better overall)
The original I cut clean through on a compound miter saw. There was one more piece of veneer in the stack. I think that was the primary reason it didn't line up. I think you could go all the way through if you had a correctly sized inset and glued using a 90% straight edge. I may try it some day. More likely I'll use similar techniques to do segmenting other than Celtic knots.
 

ramaroodle

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The original I cut clean through on a compound miter saw. There was one more piece of veneer in the stack. I think that was the primary reason it didn't line up. I think you could go all the way through if you had a correctly sized inset and glued using a 90% straight edge. I may try it some day. More likely I'll use similar techniques to do segmenting other than Celtic knots.
But if all of the stacks were of equal thickness shouldn't they have lined up?
 

magpens

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I agree with Andy (ramaroodle) ....

.... if all the stacks (inserts) are of equal thickness ... it doesn't matter what the thickness is ... alignment should be possible.
 

ramaroodle

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I agree with Andy (ramaroodle) ....

.... if all the stacks (inserts) are of equal thickness ... it doesn't matter what the thickness is ... alignment should be possible.
Yeah. I hate to keep harping on it but his first try with the exception of the alignment was perfect with no glue lines That was my pet peeve using the "don't cut all the way through" method. It's challenging and frustrating because you don't know how it's gonna end up until you're done.

Also, as stated below, ...
WOW !!! . I think that is fantastic .... on this side we have 4 cross-OVERS, whereas we had 4 cross-UNDERS on the first side you showed.

Congratulations !!!! . You have achieved something that I have long wanted to actually see !!!!!
I know I'm being OCD but I'm trying to figure out how to get all 3 things accomplished with some predictability and it seems we are darned close to figuring this out.
1. Alignment (gotta be the way the blanks were oriented?)
2. No glue lines (seems like cutting all the way through fixes that)
3. cross overs and cross unders (I have no idea how to make that happen consistently)

@duderubble has come closer to that than anybody I have seen. I'm just trying to figure out how to reproduce it predictably and consistently. If I'm selling the pen I can't have misalignment or glue lines. I can live with the over/under thing.
 

magpens

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Well ... since you have bared your soul on this topic ... I will bare mine, also being OCD . .

I cannot live without understanding the over/under thing and getting it the way I want it ... reproducibly. . Can't stand random over/under.

The alignment should be possible whether or not you cut right through ... by matching grain patterns after each ACCURATE cut .

The glue lines ... important to minimize, I agree on that. .
BUT .... Cutting all the way through .... or not .... should not be a factor for this .... as long as it is done accurately which includes SQUARELY.
 

ramaroodle

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Well ... since you have bared your soul on this topic ... I will bare mine, also being OCD . .

I cannot live without understanding the over/under thing and getting it the way I want it ... reproducibly. . Can't stand random over/under.

The alignment should be possible whether or not you cut right through ... by matching grain patterns after each ACCURATE cut .

The glue lines ... important to minimize, I agree on that. .
BUT .... Cutting all the way through .... or not .... should not be a factor for this .... as long as it is done accurately which includes SQUARELY.
Agreed. It's my experience that the glue lines are a result of the inserts not being EXACTLY the width of the kerf, which is almost impossible to do when the inlay is made up of thin veneers which really aren't uniform. Too wide and you get a gap and too narrow you get a glue line because the kerf gets spread and pinched. You can't really change the width of the kerf so it's the width of the insert that varies and is hard to match, which is why I like the look of the "cut through" method.

I also cannot live without knowing what causes the over-under thing and how to repeat it. All would be good with the world if I could figure it out. :cool:
 

magpens

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Got it, @ramaroodle !!

Thanks for elaborating !!

Not that the "cut only 90% of the way through method" is going to solve it ... you still must adjust the veneer/whatever thickness as best you can.
 

mark james

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I've been following this lively discussion even though Celtic Knots are not my cup of tea.

Just to add to the discussion - I can get my inlays to exact dimensions: Byrnes Thickness Sander. Yes, a very expensive "Toy," but for those of you who sell pens, would 5-10 additional sales pay for itself???

And I have found many uses for this "Toy" with other segmenting designs.
 

magpens

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Thanks for your input, Mark.

That suggestion means a lot, coming from you.

Don't make pens to sell, so am not interested in the sales value of "perfection"; but I am interested in the construction principles involved.
 

mark james

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Thanks for your input, Mark.

That suggestion means a lot, coming from you.

Don't make pens to sell, so am not interested in the sales value of "perfection"; but I am interested in the construction principles involved.
That is why I am following this - I have done celtic knots, but by no means have any real skills to add to those of you who have perfected this design, or are wanting to up your game, but I find this thread an excellent exchange of ideas.

Great discussion folks! 👍 👍 👏 👏
 

ramaroodle

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You're right. That is an expensive toy, but nice. I remember reading about that and your table saw some time ago.
 

jttheclockman

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I am following and have posted my replys but I guess no one wants to recognise them or do not believe me but will once again try because I want to. ;) I will say this probably the best way is to do one of each way yourself and taking notes as you go. This way you see first hand. Knots are easy to do. Not cutting all the way through is the most accurate way to keep glue up aligned and straight and true. Match the kerf is so easy. I always take a scrap block before I start doing the knot and cut a slice through it half the thickness. This way the scrap stay solid and no play from jamming too much inlay material or too little inlay material in it. Now I have a solid number or measurement. If you plan on building layers for the inlay then accuracy counts for aesthetic purposes. Many people choose to use materials like pickguard because they are miced out already and sold as panels. Now it is possible you may have to sand down some to fit exact and then you can use power sanders or drum sanders but if you are talking small amounts then place on a flat solid board or plate glass and use a block of wood with sandpaper wrapped around it and long even strokes sand it down. You should never have to sand much and if you do then your original plys are too thick and use something thinner. Now if you want to make plys then you need to be somewhat familar with your tools being bandsaw or tablesaw and how to cut veneers. I can not help there. No need for expensive drum sander but if you have one it can help if it is tuned. Just like your saws need to be. Again you can always buy veneers and glue together. They have been milled already for you and that is the easiest way. It is not impossible to get exact inlays at all. Again info above should help. Glue lines are something that needs to be addressed and again I mentioned how I handle it with adding paint or epoxy dyes to my epoxy glue when gluing in inlay. I will again show the black acrylic and aluminum knot. No matter what I did you will never be exact with matching but when I shown this photo It was spotted in the first post by Hank Lee that he noticed the outer edges of the aluminum had a black line and he was correct because I used black dye in epoxy to accommodate any imperfections and it blends in like it was meant to be.

Now cutting all the way through is another method and it takes much more exactness to keep everything aligned. But also and this is important the material you are inlaying needs to be dead flat and true moreso than if not cutting all the way through. Why you ask. Because now you are gluing flat surfaces to each other. The cuts you made using whatever saw needs to be flat and no rough edges. Can be done with fine tuned saws. Bandsaw are more apt to give a jagged cut because the blade can flutter being so thin. Now if you try sanding that edge down it has to match the same degree angle you are cutting at or all alignments will be off and it will show no matter what you do. Same goes for inlay. It can not be thicker on one end than the other because it throws alignment off and no way to correct. again better to use something that has been milled such as guitar pick or even metals. But start making your own veneers you need to be better equipped to handle it. I showed my method of gluing when cutting all the way through and using an aluminum angle. This establishes 2 exact points.

This is getting long and people do not like reading long posts but so much needs to be said.

The over under has been explained and you can go back to other knot post if you want to read my explanation. But again if you do not believe me then try them yourself and take notes. One thing I will add that was not mentioned there was the knot can take on a different look if using wood, when you go to number the sides. If you start with 1 being on face grain and 2 being on end grain if numbering in sequential order, will look different than if you started with 1 on end grain and 2 on face grain. This is why if you do the opposite numbering system where 1 is on face grain and 2 is on opposite side face grain will look different if you started with 1 on end grain and 2 on opposite end grain. If using acrylic this all goes away as shown again in my example.

Not much more to say on this. There are many videos out there on making these. Maybe that would help. Hope I cleared the gap situation up. The inlay material was not square to sum it up and or the cuts were not flat when cut all the way through and same when partial cutting.
 

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ramaroodle

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I am following and have posted my replys but I guess no one wants to recognise them or do not believe me but will once again try because I want to. ;)
Not sure why you think nobody is listening or doesn't believe you. We're just sharing ideas and experiences that we've had. Apparently you have posted about the over-under thing and have a method. Good to know. You may have mentioned it earlier or posted a link I must have missed that. I'll have to go back and check and read your responses more closely.
 

jttheclockman

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Not sure why you think nobody is listening or doesn't believe you. We're just sharing ideas and experiences that we've had. Apparently you have posted about the over-under thing and have a method. Good to know. You may have mentioned it earlier or posted a link I must have missed that. I'll have to go back and check and read your responses more closely.
Andy I mentioned it further up the thread. I say this because it seems you and Mal asked the same question a couple times already. I realize you are having a discussion and the way I am reading it there was still some confusion. Maybe I am not expressing the answer correctly and I can help in some better way. Just let me know. I tried explaining the gap thing and the over under things. Maybe as I said the best thing is to experiment for yourself and take some notes and gives us your findings. If I would have known this was coming up I would have taken a few photos of a knot I just finished up. Maybe next time I will do the experiment doing many different ways and document it. Doing both cutting all the way through and not. Plus doing the over under sequence. May even throw some wood grain changes in too. Just started working in the shop again so I have a few pens on the board right now I would like to finish. Was waiting on some mica powders. Seems with this virus thing shipments are way slower these days.

Now this said. You have a knot as your avatar. Can you explain that one?? How did you make the cuts on it?? I am guessing in direct sequence 1-4. did you cut all the way through?? The inlay material is what and how did you come by it?? What did you make the cuts with?? Do you use a jig?? What do you use to glue blank?? Do you have any better shots of the blank or pen?? This would be a good way to keep discussion going with actual photo.
 

ramaroodle

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Now this said. You have a knot as your avatar. Can you explain that one?? How did you make the cuts on it?? I am guessing in direct sequence 1-4. did you cut all the way through?? The inlay material is what and how did you come by it?? What did you make the cuts with?? Do you use a jig?? What do you use to glue blank?? Do you have any better shots of the blank or pen?? This would be a good way to keep discussion going with actual photo.
Some of the best ideas I've had I got from other people. ;) If you have a method that works, I'm all ears. No need to try and figure something out if someone already knows how to do it. I'm a relative newbie here so I missed your point. I have only done 8 or 10 of these while trying to learn how to do it. I'm trying to get to the quality you have. I don't think I've ever sold a pen with a knot cuz they just didn't look good enough for me although I've given a few away.

John you may not remember this thread but it was you that gave me the feedback I needed while trying to figure it out. I notice that even then I had the 3 under 1 over thing going. There are pictures of the jig I use which is the jig you showed me how to build.



I cut the kerfs in order 1-2-3-4.
All of mine have been cut using the "not cut all the way through" method.
Inlay is cocbolo and aluminum sandwich.
The avatar was cut with a table saw jig. I have a bandsaw jig for thinner kerf and lines. The avatar was an experiment using a segmented blank with a knot with aluminum. Hoping you can tell me how I always end up with 3 lines under and one line over
I use epoxy on metal and acrylic inserts and titebond on wooden inserts. Can't even begin to tell you how many blanks I blew up figuring that out.
 

jttheclockman

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Andy my memory is not what it use to be but i just went back and read that. At least I am consistent with what I say:) It sounds like harping but sometimes repeating things just is a method to get across the message. You ask about the 3 0ver 1 under. Have to say this I never did a blank where you number the blank in sequential order so you have me at a disadvantage. I never really payed attention to others knots when they criss cross like that. All I knew was they did go over and under. It maybe the natural thing when you do number like that. That requires more investigating. Maybe someone else can jump in on that. To sum that up if you want consistency then number the blank as I do and many others do and that is opposite sides. This ghosting you talk about is due to the infill not matching the slot. That is glue lines. Again you need a consistent thickness piece or else there will be gaps. I wish there a way to show you what happens when you clamp the blank end to end. This is where many knots fail. When you clamp blank end to end, if that infill material is not dead on perfect thickness to slot then the blank will bow. You take this part away when you cut all the way through but when you do not you leave an anchor point or pivot point. Take a look at blank after you cut filled and glued. Now you go to sand excess off. You want to take only excess infill material off and not sand main blank. Then lay blank on flat surface. If it is bowed just slightly then when you do this 4 times it throws the inlay material alignment off because you are not cutting on the same angle each and every time. Hope this makes sense. As I mentioned I have learned not to clamp blank end to end when not cutting all the way through the blank. I do put more effort into making inlay material more exact to avoid voids. It has worked well for me. Again the quality of the cuts determine if there are minor imperfections because the smoother the cuts the better the or less of a glue line you will see. That is why I am not a fan of a bandsaw to do these especially if you are making multiple cuts to widen kerf. If you are doing a thin knot then one cut with blade on bandsaw works very well. Many examples on this forum. This is the knot I am working on now and I used the exact methods as I am telling you. But what I did was mix some white epoxy dye in the epoxy glue when I glued in the infill material. Now I had to cut the orange strips from a orange pen blank to make up the sandwich and I did that on my tablesaw. No drum sander needed. I did lightly sand the blade marks off using the flat glass method I described. I used same epoxy to glue white strips. Now I did have to just lightly sand the finished material some because with the epoxy it did make the material a tad thicker than the slot but again no huge problem and no drum sander needed.
Copy of IMGP0533.JPG
 

jttheclockman

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Andy if there is specific questions throw them out maybe we can help. I will also say again and I know this sounds like a broken record but do not use the blank to find centers of the knot and that is why many knots look off. If you took a little too much off one side on the blank when sanding excess infill material you now threw that knot off center of the blank and when you go to do the diagonal markings on the end you are automatically drill the knot off center. I round the blank down before I drill. Then use a collet chuck. But I find center of knot first and set those marks between centers on my lathe to round blank down. Again if any of this does not make sense I will try a different approach to explain. Anyone else want to jump in here with their methods is welcome too. Maybe we come up with tried and true methods to make the Celtic Knot.
 

jttheclockman

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Was thinking about number sequence. Not sure what it would do if anything but number the blank 1-2-4-3 but still cut in order. If i had some time I would try these and document it but have a few blanks I want to get done. Need to get back to my original plan for the year.
 

ramaroodle

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Andy if there is specific questions throw them out maybe we can help. Anyone else want to jump in here with their methods is welcome too. Maybe we come up with tried and true methods to make the Celtic Knot.
Specifically, what I think Mal and I are trying to figure out is how @duderubble got 4 unders and 4 overs. Seems like doing opposite sides might be the key to that. Intentional or not it is a very esthetically appealing look that I'd like to achieve and consistently duplicate. I haven't had an issue with the knots being off-center. I need to decide which is easier, sizing the insert to fit the kerf or cutting all the way through so that isn't an issue. JT, your comment about not clamping the ends makes sense. Your blank in the above picture was obviously made with the "not cut through" method and has the crisp lines with no gaps that @duderubble achieved. Looking at that blank, on the side that's facing up it appears that the diagonal lines would end up under the horizontal lines. I'd love to see how the above-pictured blank looks when it's turned. You and I are saying the same thing about glue lines (gaps) being caused by the blank bowing. I think I can fix that by making sure the inserts are an exact fit and, like you suggested, not clamp the ends. I'll also try the 1-2-4-3 idea. What do you mean by "but still cut in order"?

@duderubble, again, I was very impressed with your results as a first try so I was trying to take elements from various techniques and combine them to get a better result in the end. I know, as the expression goes, "I am trying to pick the fly s**t from the pepper" but I feel like I'm zeroing in on a good overall technique.
 
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KenB259

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Specifically, what I think Mal and I are trying to figure out is how @duderubble got 4 unders and 4 overs. Seems like doing opposite sides might be the key to that. Intentional or not it is a very esthetically appealing look that I'd like to achieve and consistently duplicate. I haven't had an issue with the knots being off-center. I need to decide which is easier, sizing the insert to fit the kerf or cutting all the way through so that isn't an issue. JT, your comment about not clamping the ends makes sense. Your blank in the above picture was obviously made with the "not cut through" method and has the crisp lines with no gaps that @duderubble achieved. Looking at that blank, on the side that's facing up it appears that the diagonal lines would end up under the horizontal lines. I'd love to see how the above-pictured blank looks when it's turned. You and I are saying the same thing about glue lines (gaps) being caused by the blank bowing. I think I can fix that by making sure the inserts are an exact fit and, like you suggested, not clamp the ends. I'll also try the 1-2-4-3 idea. What do you mean by "but still cut in order"?

@duderubble, again, I was very impressed with your results as a first try so I was trying to take elements from various techniques and combine them to get a better result in the end. I know, as the expression goes, "I am trying to pick the fly s**t from the pepper" but I feel like I'm zeroing in on a good overall technique.
Just one quick comment what you said about cutting all the way through so the size of the infill doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter whether you cut the blank partially through or all the way through, the infill must perfectly match the blade kerf in either method. Here’s a couple of mine I’ve shown here before. Cuts 1 and 2 opposite of each other and 3 and 4 opposite. View attachment 240217
It appears I can’t upload the picture, oh well

Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app
 
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jttheclockman

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Andy I quickly went in the shop to take a photo of both sides to that black and aluminum pen which I still own so able to do it. Now I did not clean dust off or focus very well because I just held the camera instead of getting tripod. So sorry for the fuzzy photos but my point was to show the layout of the loops. I do all my knots the same way with 1 and 2 opposite each other as well as 3 and 4 opposite each other. So this is the look I think you are after.
IMGP0546.JPG
IMGP0547.JPG
 
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