Can of Worms

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
I have tried to point the way with the pens and pictures I have posted without holding someones hand the whole way through. The goldsmith society that I belong to brought in nationaly recognized artists for weekend workshops. Rarely did we make a finished piece or a particular piece. What we were taught were techniques. It was up to us to design and apply the techniques we learned.
I realize there are some that have to have each step laid out and explained to them. But for the most part just being shown the possibilities and the starting point is enough to motivate the rest.

The point has been made that there comes a time/place where you just need to say "I'm not ready to share that yet." There is also the very real probability that having been shared it will become common place. Then duplicated and offered across the board by the larger companies for retail sale. Thereby loosing its uniqueness and its
appeal on the retail market.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Secrets....

First I want to say this....I don't want to know your method of making cigar pens... looks like fun novelty idea for a cigar smoker but not something that would be of any interest to me.

In general, my advice would be this. If you are thinking of protecting something because you think it might cause you monetary or other damage if devulged, don't tell. If you are protecting something that won't make any difference to your own success, tell.
 
Mr. Smart and I are of like mind but ultimately the answer to the question depends on the purpose of the IAP, how you view that purpose, and why you personally post here. I have not found a mission or purpose statement for the existence of the IAP, maybe I missed it.

Some folks post with the intention of sharing knowledge. Some post to show off their pens and get their egos stroked. Others post to advertise their wares. Very thinly I might add to the latter. There are those who just like pens, making pens, Talking about making pens and looking at the homemade pen porn.

I am sure there are other reasons too.

Edit: I do not intend to put the open and uber regulated venders in the advertising portion. I did not make that clear.
 
Last edited:
For the most part Martin, this has been a really great thread. I see the point of views from several sides. I still like the angle that promotes thinking and creativity and not just direct copying. As the one doing the learning this method generally improves my skill. As the one doing the creating, it is nice to have ideas that are liked well enough that people want to try them but in the same sense, kind of insulting to just be blatantly copied.
 
Haynie said:
I have not found a mission or purpose statement for the existence of the IAP, maybe I missed it.
Click to expand...

Mission Statement located here.

Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.
 
My new totorial just layed a lot of my cards on the table, but I dont think anyone needs to feel they have to do the same.

I showed every step pretty much, and just look at what I do to make a kitless Bulb filler. My methods work, but IMO they are not economically feasible, so I have no fear of much "competition" becase it just takes too darn long to make a pen that way, and not very many members have access to the high end market you would need to make such pens make business sense. As someone who doesn't actively sell pens, the business reasons to my trade secrets simply dont come into my equation.

Why did I do it? To give back to where I learned so much, and it felt good to organized and lay out my process. I HOPE it will inspire some people to take the next step by de-mystifying some things, but I dont really expect much direct mimicry. I also hope some people may want to discuss alternative methods - there is ALWAYS a better way :)

Now, with that all said, what you also have to realize is that someone like me may one day like what they see in your work, figure out how to duplicate it, and post a detailed tutorial. Info will get out no matter what.

Keep it to your self if you want - it is your option/right, and I certainly wont think anything bad about you if you decide this.

Lastly, step by step tutorials wont really help someone much who needs to follow step-by-step. It is about triggering ideas by example. For example, a member here taught me how he did breather tubes - and I simply could not make his process work, but it taught me enough to come up with my own process that works for me, and in the end, there is only one thing in the process that is the same.
 
Martin, in my opinion, that all depends on the person. Have you ever seen the movie "The Saint" (The one with Val Kilmer and Elisabeth Shue). He thought that cold fusion should be free for everyone. Others wanted to keep it a secret and sell it instead of give it away.
Well, penmaking is very similar :biggrin:. Ok, not THAT similar, but my point is, there are some people who enjoy giving, and those people will share with the world what they have learned or discovered. Others want to keep it all to themselves and/or make a profit from it. There's no right or wrong thing to do (unless you discover a cure for cancer, then the only right thing to do is spread the word immediately!! :smile:). On one hand, where would we (the human race) be if we didn't share our experiences and teach each other what we know? On the other hand, where would Coke or Pepsi be if they just gave away there formulations to anyone who asked?
Only you can prevent forrest fires... or something like that.
 
You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once you post a picture, people are going to copy it. I don't have a problem with someone holding back on their way of making a pen. But I would ask, should we have a library of tutorials? Have you ever benefited from from the information in the library? I really don't think some grand enlightenment is gained from reverse engineering. I usually find my own way whether I am going on just a picture of the finished product or I have a complete instruction sheet.
 
Market

Keep in mind, that greater availability and greater exposure often result in greater demand for a product with attendant greater sales and higher profits for everyone.
 
I've learned a tremendous amount from many here who were willing to share their knowledge. I try to honor that spirit and pass the skills along when I can.

That said, I've also been burned - both by members I confidentially showed techniques I developed who then publicly distributed them as their own, and by a customer for whom I (at significant personal effort and expense) created a custom product which they turned around and had mass-produced elsewhere.

So, I hope people will understand that although I'm generally happy to help, there are some processes that I don't share. I thank those who take the time and effort to assist others, and honor any boundaries they set. After all, it's easiest to not contribute at all.

Regards,
Eric
 
Best of luck! If it's something that's already out there that's been done before I'll pass along what I've learned and how my creation came to be. Your situation is a bit deeper though. You've hit on a unique style that has endless potential for profits. For this and from a business point of view I say you should ride that pony to the finish line before handing out the shop secrets. That's just me. I tried my hand at what you do and it turned out like a bag full of warm sick...but you inspired me to try! One day I'll work through my own creative process to perfect it, but I'll still want to own one from you! It's how the process goes I guess.
 
Last edited:
My opinion on this is share what you want. If someone wants to copy it, good luck to them. You have made your mark in being the first to come up with it but sooner or later someone will figure it out. As for myself I can read the instructions and watch all the tutorials and am not one bit closer to making it come out right. there are a lot of people on this forum who have talent the rest of us only dream of having. Skiprat made a tutorial on a rose machine, but I have yet to see where anyone copied it and are putting all these fantastic designs to work for themselves. I doubt that everyone would be able to copy your ash techniques either. sure some would but like I say its a matter of time before someone figures it out anyway. Congratulations on being the first. Hopefully you will have many more ideas.
 
i personally think figuring things out is half the fun, tips are great but if someone told you all the details of how they did it all you did is copied them, getting there yourself you learn a lot more.
 
MartinPens said:
Linarestribe said:
. The guys selling the tools and ideas to make stuff are the ones doing really well.

Jorge
Click to expand...

Boy, isn't that the truth!!
I don't think I would make much money on a book of how to make ASH! lol : )

Thanks, Jorge

Regards,

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
Click to expand...

Not all the guys selling tools are getting rich! What I know I've shared with students while teaching, and apprentices while training, and the little bit I know about making pens and Seam Rippers here on the IAP. I do understand how Neil felt when a fellow member got rather nasty with him, for not doing a full tutorial on his 360 Herringbone weave pens.
I know that some of the more talented blank makers and turners have answered some of the Basic where to start questions I've asked, then it's let's see what you can figure out where YOU want to go with this type of work.
We are under no obligation to do tutorials from pick up stick and follow steps 1 through 200 and put on table for sale.
Quite a few members have generously donated their time and done some very easy to understand Tutorials, the one that come immediately to mind is George's tutorial on making grips and sections for fountain pens.
Bottom line there isn't any correct/PC answer to your question it's what you feel like sharing, I would have no where near the skill I have today (which ain't much) had it not been for people sharing the basics, and helping trouble shoot when I had problems.
But a bunch of these people aren't here any more. Sadly we have lost several members that left some for health some for differences of opinion with the Big Boss and some because they are so busy, they don't have much free time.
Just share what you feel comfortable with and feel good about it, knowing that you've done someone a favor, Perhaps a PM or even a phone conversation!
 
bitshird said:
Just share what you feel comfortable with and feel good about it, knowing that you've done someone a favor, Perhaps a PM or even a phone conversation!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments!

One of things I have enjoyed most about the forum is the personal contact with people. I met and sold a lathe to a guy who is here on the forum, have had several phone conversations with people and enjoyed it a whole lot! I know a couple members who I see on a weekly basis at local coffee shops. AND if I didn't have such a full schedule and two kids I would have accepted a few invites from people to "come on out" and spend time in their shop. Sharing techniques with someone who I get to know more personally really builds comradery.

Thanks everyone for the fantastic comments. It has been very interesting and informative. It has helped round out some of my thinking on the subject.

Regards,

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
MartinPens said:
I'm pretty certain this is a can of worms that has already been opened, but i am interested in varying opinions....

One of the things that I enjoy about the forums and woodworking in general is the openness in sharing methods and techniques. I have certainly learned a lot over the years from others here and I have made an effort to contribute in the threads and via tutorials in the library.

I find myself coming up to a line recently... this line is a place where I have spent a considerable amount of time and money refining and attempting to perfect a certain way of making a specialty pen. And now that I'm getting the process down I have many people asking me how I do it. I am conflicted but have decided that since it is a particular niche that I need to try and comp some of my costs in getting here before I go giving away my methods. Also - I have a general angst about the spirit of "free info" when I think we should be supporting one another by purchasing or trading with one another (some do this) and working to do our own research.

I was recently guilty of this myself when I contacted a member concerning kitless construction. I found myself asking very specific questions - basically wanting to skip the research/work/expense and have him give me all the answers up front. He was helpful, but in retrospect I was grateful that what he said in general was "start here with these taps and dies and dive in!" In other words, in my translation, "get in there and experiment and don't expect me to spoon feed you all the specific info.

I understand that each individual can do whatever the heck they want to do. If you develop a niche and then decide to make a tutorial of the step by step process... as many have, that is fine. But at what point do you hold on to specific information/methods - if you do - in hopes of retaining a niche product and hopefully recouping some of the expense in getting there through the sale of that specific niche product?

There it is. Maybe I should have titled this "How to eat a can of worms"

I look forward to the responses. Let's keep it friendly with lots of happy faces. : )

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
Click to expand...

Martin, I haven't read the other responses but thought I would weigh in as I've been admiring your recent cigar pens you've posted. In fact my response to your "Big Ash Pen" post I think my words were "I gotta figure out how you do that ash." Tempted as I was to ask "Howdya do that?" I had a pretty good idea that you wouldn't (nor shouldn't) share it.

There are, IMHO, two levels of "Howdya do that?". One is at the level that a lot of beginners (and I put myself into that category) asking basic "how to" questions (finish, turning technique, photography, etc.), and those are readily answered here. It is entirely a different thing to ask someone who has developed a unique product and honed their craft through their own trial and error (and $$ that go with it!), who has developed a market for that product, how they do it.

I totally respect that you don't share your "trade secrets" and don't think you should feel torn in any way. I appreciate that you post your pens for the rest of us to admire. There are others here (again, totally with in their rights) who do not post pictures of some of their unique and high end products. I look at what you've done as raising the bar on the craft and something I have to aspire to. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.
 
I fully understand the decision not to tell people evertything. However, I personally am not attempting to make any money with this, so if someone asks me something, I'll tell them. Now, I might not go into great detail, but I feel I should share what knowledge I have t people here, just as many have done for me.
 
This has been a really interesting thread to read, and I read all 6 pages. Personally, I don't really understand the territorial "I know but won't share" mentality, as that hurts everyone. Sharing all kinds of information and techniques allows people to develop the art even further, and the art component to the technical skills makes each pen so unique, even when the same technical skills are utilized, that it's virtually impossible to hurt in sharing data.

I admit, that my perspective is as an optometrist, and collegues constantly share tips, tricks, ideas, practice management philosophies, etc., as we want our profession as a whole to do well, rather than micromanaging our cosmos and seeing each other as 'competition'. There are exceptions to that rule, of course, but they tend to be less successful, as the lack of sharing tends to make them more closed to other ideas as well. I'm also a teacher (skydiving, parachute rigging) and quite freely share my money making tips and techniques with students, hoping that some day they'll come back and give me some improvement on what they learned from me (and that is occasionally the case!).

I'm a big picture kind of girl, and see myself as pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of the world. Keeping secrets that will die with me serves no greater good.

Just my humble opinion, and I completely respect the stance of those that don't want to share. You'll never hear me ask for that kind of information, as I don't want my head ripped off. I just tend to hang with people that share my mindset, so we learn from each other in all kinds of ways, without having to ask.
 
Why should I learn from my mistakes when I can learn from yours?
When I want to learn about something, I go to where the knowledge is, which is a big reason I am on this forum. It is not just to look at the pretty pictures, however enjoyable that is.
That said, sometimes I have to pay for the book or video, which I am perfectly willing to do if it advances my knowledge significantly. I have spent more than twenty years in martial arts, learning techniques much older than penmaking, and there are still instructors who will not share certain aspects unless you are one of their most dedicated students.
Yes, I recognize that I am arguing both sides of the issue. In essence what I am saying is this: don't be offended if I ask how something is done, and I won't be offended if you tell me you can't (won't) say. If you want to sell me the information, I can decide if I am willing to meet your price or do it on my own. This ain't rocket science and I am sure many of the people here can figure out most things. If you have a patentable process, there are ways to protect it. Otherwise, don't get upset when someone copies it.
I just started in penturning, and I hope I don't have to duplicate several hundred years of learning. I'm almost 69 years old and I don't think I can recreate all of it.
 
My opinion on design or method secrets is; if you don't want to share it, why show it on the forum? Aren't you asking for inquiries if you show a new technique on a forum that promotes sharing information? Same thing with the pro turners that tour the country. They want us to pay them some pretty good money to show and teach us their techniques, (even so far as to take money for hands-on training) but don't appreciate us using that style if we want to sell something like what they make. If you want to keep it to yourself, keep it to yourself and your customers. Of course I have a pet peeve for people that post all their work to multiple forums. I guess it's just the way I was brought up. I don't go fishin' for compliments.
 
While I agree with most of your points and as a teacher I can easily see the free flow of information as something that can only help the profession.

As a business owner I can tell you that competition for business is ruthless and if you have an angle you hold your cards close to your chest.
 
Upfront: sorry for the length.

Martin,
When I started reading this thread, the thought that came into my mind was, believe it or not, preparing a sermon. For over 2000 years there have been people who have been commenting, preaching, writing, exploring, tearing apart Scripture. So here I am, 2000 years into the process trying to come up with 'new' material to make it relevant to the folks of 2012. How to do that? I read what has gone before, study it, and try to make it mine by doing my own work, applying it to my life, using the tools I have to create my own work. Sure, I could go out on the internet or get a book of prepared sermons someone else wrote, but IMHO that's just not right. If I am to do the sermon, then I should prepare it and write it: put my own effort, ideas, orginality...in other word, put my own self into it.

I see that same theme in this thread. You have posted pictures of amazing cigar pens. Others have posted amazing pictures of quarter pens, hand made metal pens, watch part pens, etc. Each of those processes has it's own 'proprietary' ways of doing things. Your 'ash' for instance is a perfect example. And, I think you are righteous in keeping the 'how' to yourself. It is what makes your art yours. If someone else attempts to make a cigar pen, then they will have to use tools and techniques to make it theirs.

Another example: I fell in love a few years ago with Johnny U's feather blanks. They are like "wow." So I said "self, why not make your own?" So I scoured the internet for a tutorial, found one, edited it, etc. I was new to the site and uploaded it here, which IMHO, looking back now, was the wrong thing to do. I infringed on another member's (and now friend) lively hood and unique ability to create something beautiful.

So, in my smart*** way I thought I was all set. I ordered two dead, skinned pheasants from Ebay. They came (and totally grossed out my wife but my two black labs really wanted to eat them). I pulled off all the feathers. I tried to make the blanks.................and failed miserably. I could NOT for the life of me get it down. They would stick out, fluff out, fly all over. They would get fuzz all over the tubes, little pieces would go up my nose and make me sneeze...........

So, I bit the bullet and IM'd John. I told him that I tried, failed, and could he use all these feathers. He graciously said yes. And you know what he did? About a month later I got 5, yes 5 sets of pen blanks in the mail as a thank you. That is graciousness.

So that's my story (and maybe confession too.) We can try, but don't always expect success. YOU came up with a wonderful pen, and you are the only one who can make it look that with, especially with that ash. And that's perfectly ok. I can try to make one, and if I do, it won't be exactly like yours. You provided the inspiration, some of the knowledge and the desire. That's gift enough.
 
Martin;

Gotta say that this is the most intriguing thread i've read on any forum. It's intriguing to me not because I can relate in any way to having a unique style or process that i feel protective of, but because to me it comes down partly to leadership. I think thats the one thing that has not been touched on so far. This may come across random - but my mind is tracking faster than my fingers.... so please bear with me - It will come together by the end.
I've been in my industry - same company for 31 years now. It's second nature to me and quite honestly not a challenge. To keep myself in the game I have taken on developing leaders as the piece of the business that does challenge me. It never stops, pays dividends and each person is a unique challenge.
I view your question from a leadership point of view. There are two types of leaders - Appointed leaders - given a title by the boss and put in charge with or without merits and a Chosen leader. Those are chosen by their peers as the one they trust to ask questions, get honest answers from, they trust to follow and wish to mimic. (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) Those chosen leaders often find themselves in a leadership role never having asked for it or wanted it. They are -like it or not - leaders of their peers and will remain so until they lose that honor by their actions.
I have been reading this forum for about 3 years now - even though I just joined and I believe you to be a chosen leader. Even though we have never met or spoken, I get the feeling you enjoy that too - (as you should - it's an honor and well deserved ) you seem to answer questions openly and honestly. Thus the internal struggle.
Every new crop of young leaders in my business contains at least one joker who thinks he has the world by the tail and is just going to ask everything and put the onus on me to "spoon feed" him. Those types are easy to spot and I always take the approach of telling them to explain what they tried and why they think it failed so that I may help them learn to figure things out. Vey rarely does that go beyond one round. The ones that are trying and say "I tried this, this and that and still can't figure t out" I will give all the time they need. They are showing an active interest in their own development. I am developing leaders, not leeches.
I just see a lot of parallels in your question and my leadership teachings. I suspect at the end of the day that you are a leader and pretty good at it. Sounds to me your conflict comes with withholding information. I would say that a chosen leader status would sell more tutorial DVD's. I think it's something you will just have to "walk" up to the point where you want to be.

Case i point: You started this post in November and its still alive and kicking ! I don't think had I posed the question it would have gone this far...

Sorry for the length !

Regards;

Scott
 
I think if the person is trying to make a living off pens they will probably not give out any trade secrets. However, someone that does it for 'fun' may share everything they know.
 
Rob73 said:
I think if the person is trying to make a living off pens they will probably not give out any trade secrets. However, someone that does it for 'fun' may share everything they know.
Click to expand...

Very nicely put Rob. If you are a hobbyist and move into trying to do a business, it takes on a different flavor. Not everyone likes that flavor. That's ok.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
Boy wouldn't Eagle have a page full for this thread. :biggrin: For me it is simple because of what Eagle brought to the table. When it really got right down to it he didn't mind sharing how things were done. What he despised was all the people asking for a tutorial so that could follow steps 1-30 and produce the exact same thing that he may have spent months on with dozens of failures. It was kind of insulting. He would often say, "Tell me how you would do, I might like your way better". What was great about this approach was it got people to think and learn. Sometimes this would lead to a better way of doing things for both parties. But what was most important was you learned why you had to do things a certain way, almost as if you experienced and learned from the mistakes. Doing things this way progresses the craft much more than a tutorial. A real good example is George's section tutorial. Yes you can follow instructions and make a great functioning section. But questions of, why you use this size tap and die and how you come up with this diameter of tenon to thread, are lost. I would hope that everyone who uses a tutorial (including myself) stops and thinks about why you do something this way or that. Even better is if they start up a conversation on it. That is what leads to innovations. Collaborations can be quite enjoyable and fulfilling.

So to those that choose not to share, I respect that. For those that want to learn and not just follow instruction, I respect that. For those that demand a tutorial, I hope that you were able to understand where I am coming from in this post and can respect that as well.

Martin - This has not been a can of worm but rather a very good thread. Good job by everyone for playing nice on this one. It is a subject that can easily cause tempers to flair. :good:
 
I'm diggin this thread Martin. Just like everyone else who saw your pens for the first time I was like....How the hell did he do that? That's so cool..

I say don't divulge too much ONLY out of the fun, intrigue and mystery it creates in having a "secret sauce". Knowing EVERYthing is boring.

As for those who spill their guts....:biggrin:.:beer: I spend most of my time here looking through the advanced and SOYP sections. I've finally gone kitless and appreciate so much guys like George, Fred, Dennis and Chuck for their guidance. My reason for going kitless is for the most part as the missing link between my urushi and a worthy canvas. Thank you.

Speaking of Urushi......figure it out for yourselves...!!:tongue:

:wink: Kidding of course.:wink:
 
Martin,

How to eat a can of worms.

Step one exhibit on this forum.

Step two try to isolate your work from others.

Step three realise in your own words how you recently asked someone else how?

Step four now we are all doing what you are doing understand others.

Now to show any pen is an invitation not a commandment to show and tell, love to see your next pens with or without ash. Gave up smoking 50 yrs ago.

Regret the smilies are not displayed (do not know how)

Had a belly laugh many times reading the replies. All the best for the rest of the year.

Kind regards Peter.
 
If I was making a living with the cigar replica pen I would not give out my secrets.....I would apply for a patten.
If it is a hobby then why not share? Just my thoughts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom