Can of Worms

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MartinPens

MartinPens

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Medford, Oregon, USA
I'm pretty certain this is a can of worms that has already been opened, but i am interested in varying opinions....

One of the things that I enjoy about the forums and woodworking in general is the openness in sharing methods and techniques. I have certainly learned a lot over the years from others here and I have made an effort to contribute in the threads and via tutorials in the library.

I find myself coming up to a line recently... this line is a place where I have spent a considerable amount of time and money refining and attempting to perfect a certain way of making a specialty pen. And now that I'm getting the process down I have many people asking me how I do it. I am conflicted but have decided that since it is a particular niche that I need to try and comp some of my costs in getting here before I go giving away my methods. Also - I have a general angst about the spirit of "free info" when I think we should be supporting one another by purchasing or trading with one another (some do this) and working to do our own research.

I was recently guilty of this myself when I contacted a member concerning kitless construction. I found myself asking very specific questions - basically wanting to skip the research/work/expense and have him give me all the answers up front. He was helpful, but in retrospect I was grateful that what he said in general was "start here with these taps and dies and dive in!" In other words, in my translation, "get in there and experiment and don't expect me to spoon feed you all the specific info.

I understand that each individual can do whatever the heck they want to do. If you develop a niche and then decide to make a tutorial of the step by step process... as many have, that is fine. But at what point do you hold on to specific information/methods - if you do - in hopes of retaining a niche product and hopefully recouping some of the expense in getting there through the sale of that specific niche product?

There it is. Maybe I should have titled this "How to eat a can of worms"

I look forward to the responses. Let's keep it friendly with lots of happy faces. : )

Martin

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Very well said and should be understood. You might can point in the right direction but not give up specifics as to how it is done. If someone wants to know, they should put in the time to learn.
 
Part of the trip is getting the information. If you find someone willing to give you the specifics, great! If not, go figure it out! I prefer passing as much info as possible, because it usually comes back full circle and something even better falls iny lap and I can move into new territory. But I also don't get upset with someone for wanting to keep their hard won secrets if they so desire.
 
Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one. :biggrin:

Certain things, I believe, are alright to pass along. Tips on finishing and sanding or design aids ect... But to flat out give away how something is done is not only a disservice to you but to the person receiving the information. If you would have asked Eagle that type of question, you would have got an ear full. If you survived the tongue lashing, Eagle would have finally responded with how do you think it was done or how would you do it, cause I might like your way better. Simply put a person does not learn or think when you give them the answers. Talking about it can greatly improve skills and ideas.

I miss the long discussions with Eagle. It really helped in my way of thinking today.
 
I don't see anything wrong with keeping the info to yourself. Even though there is a lot of information that is shared openly that doesn't mean everything is out in the open. There is no reason for you to openly share something you are developing. If you are being contacted by individuals and don't want to share just politely tell them you are not ready to share the information.
 
Not a simple question. I had a friend that I was helping make fishing lures. A lot of people who make parts also make lures. They are glad to answer most questions but they have no problem telling you when you are asking for the proprietary info and you won't get any answers to those questions. Everyone is different, in my industry I have people ask me questions because they don't want to spend the time to find the answer for themselves and people who will waste hours of their time beating their heads against a wall when one simple question would clear the whole thing up for them.. I have a guy that works for me when he runs into something new it throws him for a loop and he's lost. I will show him how to deal with it and he will never ask me the same question again. Myself I will ask some questions before I start and if I get stumped then I will ask some more. When I am being asked the questions it's the same way. Most times a lot of questions will answer themselves in the shop if you just try.
Oh right, I need to add smileys.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
Martin,

Your cigar replica pens are always amazing, and something many of us would like to try and make ourselves. Having said that with every post of a new pen you always seem to answer the questions that are asked of you, just like you did for me earlier today. These responses are very helpful for the community as a whole in attempting something new to us. I agree with your desire to try and recoup some of your costs of figuring this all out before you publish any sort of full detail tutorial.

This is my opinion but sometimes we get lazy and don't try and do all the work ourselves and just want the results now. I have learned more from the web forms than I ever could have expected, but I still think that doing something myself is a better way of learning something. So with the guidance of the more experienced people here I have experimented (not always with good results) and vastly improved my skills.

Please continue to answer the general questions presented to you about any of the pens you make. By giving guidance to those of use who would like to try you are passing on some of the knowledge you have without giving away the niche market by writting a tutorial.

To the members who have written tutorials for the library, I thank you, they are a great resource for us all.

Bruce
 
Martin, To be honest I really don't know where you are heading with this but from what I can figure out, here are my thoughts........

When I joined the forum in 2007 I didn't know much about pen making and certainly had never tried techinques like segmenting and while there were a few advanced pan makers with the attitude of "go figure it out for yourself" there were several who offered their advice freely and I appreciated it. Since they shared their experiences freely decided that I would also freely share what I have learned with others and in my opinion, that's the way it should be.

I've written a few tutorials and helped quite a few members via PM's, over the phone or in person and have never asked for anything in return BUT......... (and I think this might be what your talking about) many people have suggested that I do a DVD tutorial covering all aspects of "kitless" and charge a few bucks for my trouble. At first I dismissed the idea but one day I might do it and if I spent a week or two putting the project together I wouldn't feel bad for charging for my time.

As far as listing a few taps and saying "have at it", I don't think that's what the person helping you meant. I think he probably meant for you to get the tools you need and start experimenting on your own since in his opinion that is half the fun of the journey........ but I could be wrong! :smile:
 
With a tear in my eye,:crying: Mike you've said my thoughts completely,......


IPD_Mr said:
Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one. :biggrin:

Certain things, I believe, are alright to pass along. Tips on finishing and sanding or design aids ect... But to flat out give away how something is done is not only a disservice to you but to the person receiving the information. If you would have asked Eagle that type of question, you would have got an ear full. If you survived the tongue lashing, Eagle would have finally responded with how do you think it was done or how would you do it, cause I might like your way better. Simply put a person does not learn or think when you give them the answers. Talking about it can greatly improve skills and ideas.

I miss the long discussions with Eagle. It really helped in my way of thinking today.
Click to expand...
 
Everything we do at one time or another was someones secret and many others figured it out, or were told/shown how to do it. I know I would tell anyone how I did something, because that one nugget of something that I share, I have gotten 10 fold time and time again. At what point will people start saying screw that guy he will not tell us how he _______'s? The big thing I think one needs to ask theirselves is my technique I developed cost me about X number of dollars, have the knowledge I have gained from here worth that.
 
To the OP's question, you should share what you are comfortable with sharing and not what you aren't. If I were you, I wouldn't share how you create your awesome ash effect, for instance. You've already given a few hints at it. If people want to experiment based on those hints and come up with a similar effect, that's fine, but you don't have to give away the very thing that make your offerings so very unique.

Still, don't be put off if every time you post one of your incredible pens someone (perhaps me) posts a reply that basically says 'Wow! Howdya do that???'

That being said, I am ever thankful that people in this forum have been so willing to share. It helps all of us become better at our craft.
 
Martin,

You and I recently had a PM conversation about this. I was going to respond to a member asking how to do these and before responding to him I thought of asking your feelings on it. The reason I did is because you and I both use very similar methods and same tools to make the cigar illusion pens. I felt that if I shared how I did them I would be sharing how you did them and thought that since this was what you used to get into the guild then I should ask you. Long story short you didn't want me to share and I didn't.

If I say treat this pen first as a segment and secondly as a closed end pen. Does that really let the cat out of the bag? Not really because no matter how many of these you make or sell as long as you show them you will have questions on how to do them. I learned this at my local woodworking shop where I do pen turning demos to other pen turners and novice turners. There are things that I demo and things that I do not. I have shown them how do segementing including celtic knots and using aluminum can peices and herring bones. I've done this for two years now and to this day I get the same questions on how I did the first demo which was a celtic knot. There will be people that just don't get it even with a tutorial and those that will ask how without reading the tutorial or this thread first.

I think my question to you is whether or not you decide to share how you do it is if you find someone else selling them how will you feel or what will you do? Even at this point we aren't the only people making them I can think of at least 6 other poeple that have made at least one of these pens 4 of which are members here.
 
sbell111 said:
People keep posting things like this, but it should be remembered that there is a reason that he wasn't around this forum.

Eagle was not a God nor does every opinion he ever had need to be revered.
Click to expand...

I don't find this response to be helpful in the smiley face division. Let's just stick with one can of worms at a time!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
MartinPens said:
sbell111 said:
People keep posting things like this, but it should be remembered that there is a reason that he wasn't around this forum.

Eagle was not a God nor does every opinion he ever had need to be revered.
Click to expand...

I don't find this response to be helpful in the smiley face division. Let's just stick with one can of worms at a time!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
Click to expand...

I didn't use a smiley face in hopes that the post wouldn't be improperly placed in that division.
 
Martin, I go along with Mike and some of the others, Giving some help when some one is at a point they are close, but just need a suggestion is one thing, doing a complete HOW TO, is in my opinion not going to advance or educate the person on how it can be done.
I appreciate tips when I get stuck on things, but some people just get obnoxious if you don't want to do a step by step tutorial, (ask wolftat).
I think you have given a good bit of information as it is, You don't owe any one any explanation. A few people have come close, which shows they have tried and will probably get close to your standards, which is the way it should work.
 
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Texatdurango said:
Martin, To be honest I really don't know where you are heading with this but from what I can figure out, here are my thoughts........

As far as listing a few taps and saying "have at it", I don't think that's what the person helping you meant. I think he probably meant for you to get the tools you need and start experimenting on your own since in his opinion that is half the fun of the journey........ but I could be wrong! :smile:
Click to expand...


I don't think there's any way for you to be wrong.... Since you were the guy I was talking to! : )

I felt, afterwards, that I was asking for shortcuts in a lazy way. You were generous in your information that allowed me to save some money by making an "informed" decision on what to get. And we both know, since we talked about it, that had I called 5 different people I may have gotten 5 different answers.

I thank you for what you shared and I am putting in the time to figure things out. There have been others who have been willing to give specific info, but I'm not sure it was "proprietary" info.

Thanks for the response and the big-grin smiley faces!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
I sometimes find it rude that someone would even ask.

Some people also ask how much you paid for the Christmas give you gave them.

There are so many tutorials, and so much info on this site that us "Johnny com lately s." have it pretty easy.

I haven't even done much looking in the "Advanced Pen Making" Forum, but figure I'll get there some day.

I even have a friend who refuses to consult the library when trying something new. Says it takes all the fun out of it, and I can see his point.
 
Steve, no one ever said he was a god and not every opinion he had was revered so what is you point .:confused:


sbell111 said:
IPD_Mr said:
Too bad Eagle isn't here to respond to this one. :biggrin:
Click to expand...
People keep posting things like this, but it should be remembered that there is a reason that he wasn't around this forum.

Eagle was not a God nor does every opinion he ever had need to be revered.
Click to expand...
 
I'm a relative newbie,and I've certainly not invested the time or come up with a truly unique and creative product like Martin or many other ultra experienced members have.

Therefore, I'm not in a postion to offer an informed opinion on what one should do in his situation. However, I do applaud his courage in raising the issue. It, and many of the replies from the veterans, have further educated me.

What I can say, and the reason I chose to write this, is that Martin merely publishing the photos of his exquisite work is more than enough for me. Honestly, his pictures (and the work of many others here), inspire me. I don't think Martin or any other member owes me a thing, and I just choose to be grateful for whatever someone decides to share. Like I said, great work inspires me to try to be better and more creative.

Roger
 
ragz said:
Martin,

You and I recently had a PM conversation about this. I was going to respond to a member asking how to do these and before responding to him I thought of asking your feelings on it. The reason I did is because you and I both use very similar methods and same tools to make the cigar illusion pens. I felt that if I shared how I did them I would be sharing how you did them and thought that since this was what you used to get into the guild then I should ask you. Long story short you didn't want me to share and I didn't.

If I say treat this pen first as a segment and secondly as a closed end pen. Does that really let the cat out of the bag? Not really because no matter how many of these you make or sell as long as you show them you will have questions on how to do them. I learned this at my local woodworking shop where I do pen turning demos to other pen turners and novice turners. There are things that I demo and things that I do not. I have shown them how do segementing including celtic knots and using aluminum can peices and herring bones. I've done this for two years now and to this day I get the same questions on how I did the first demo which was a celtic knot. There will be people that just don't get it even with a tutorial and those that will ask how without reading the tutorial or this thread first.

I think my question to you is whether or not you decide to share how you do it is if you find someone else selling them how will you feel or what will you do? Even at this point we aren't the only people making them I can think of at least 6 other poeple that have made at least one of these pens 4 of which are members here.
Click to expand...

Point well taken.
I think it should be clarified that I expressed an opinion to you in a PM, the decision to share is always up to the individual. If you were to share, you would be sharing YOUR method, however related to mine. But since we haven't talked methods by comparison, that isn't even clear. You would not be sharing a method that I originally shared with you... You would be sharing a method of your own. You were very courteous in asking my opinion, and I gave it. Again, everyone is free to share information and I'm not interested in trying to shut anyone down... That is a futile process. If I want to keep something proprietary then I have to go theogh the expense of trademarking and such... Which others have done.

My topic here is looking for input on how people feel about sharing information about a technique that has taken time and money to develop - especially as it applies to a niche or uncommon method - not general information of course. Personally I get a lot of joy in the process. My brain loves puzzles! I love thinking of a new way of doing something and then trying to figure out how to do it. It keeps the creative juices flowing. Skipping the "figure it out" part takes away much of the fun for me. On the other hand, spending money on tools and finding out I bought the wrong kind or something I don't need, can be frustrating.

Thanks for the great reply! These worms are getting tasty!! Keep the smiley faces coming. I would add smiley faces, but Forumrunner doesn't give me that option.

: )

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OKLAHOMAN said:
Steve, no one ever said he was a god and not every opinion he had was revered so what is you point .:confused:
Click to expand...

Please make your point in a different thread or in a PM. It's off topic of this thread and not needed.

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Mercedes Benz freely shares all of their safety innovations with all of the world's other car manufacturers. They do this in hopes of every car made being a safer product.

Conversely, you knock off one of their innovative design concepts or marketing ideas and Mrrcedes will come after the offending company with all their power.

Seems like pen makers could function in much the same way as Mercedes.
 
Eagle (not saint Eagle, just the guy who I knew well) made an early bullet cartridge pen. He did not have a place to sell them for the $100 plus he thought they were worth, so I sold a few for him.

Later, I MADE bullet cartridge pens and we saw each other again. He was astonished that MINE was nothing like HIS. Why didn't I copy the one I had, he asked.

Because I had never LOOKED at his design. I opened the pen to see what refill it took, so I could sell the pen, but had I looked at his design--mine would likely have been similar.

After seeing mine, he changed part of his design---at THAT POINT--we could SHARE!!! We both had knowledge that would HELP the other.

I have told a few people how I make these pens---I don't believe I have ever instructed someone on how Eagle did it---THAT was HIS knowledge, to give and take as HE preferred.

There are many pen designs that I have SEEN when visiting other members here, but those pens have never been SHOWN on IAP. The "clamor" over "TELL US how to do it", coupled with the "big boys" who copy the pen and have CHINA do it, have limited the visibility.

That's the way it is. Do with YOUR knowledge as YOU see fit.
 
I, for one, have benefited from what you have chosen to share! While I do appreciate "spoon-feeding", I also completely respect keeping something back. As others have said, look at the finished product, then decide how you would go about getting there...we will likely take different paths and achieve different results, tho' along the same theme. I know that at the end of the day, I am a better penmaker because I have LEARNED something! I make a beautiful cigar pen that looks very little like yours! The theme is there, but I have taken another direction. I also believe that something shared in confidence should stay that way....If you choose to share publicly, fine, otherwise it should remain with only those you have confided in. I thank you for what you have shared!
 
Point well taken.
I think it should be clarified that I expressed an opinion to you in a PM, the decision to share is always up to the individual. If you were to share, you would be sharing YOUR method, however related to mine. But since we haven't talked methods by comparison, that isn't even clear. You would not be sharing a method that I originally shared with you... You would be sharing a method of your own.
Click to expand...

Without getting into specifics you have let enough info out and from looking at your postings I can see that how we make these is very similar. There are some differences in how we approach them. The reason I contacted you was I felt that if I did answer any specific questions on how I did them they would answer specifics that you feel are proprietary to how you make the pens. So after reading your opinion I stayed away from it.

You are very proud of your work and you should be. The work is very well done and the presentation is superb.

I really hope I'm wrong on this but...
The problem here as I see it is you are worried about how this affects your bottom dollar. Do you really think that if someone that is say 1500 miles from you will affect your sales that much if you show them how to do it? If that's the case shouldn't we all be paying the Don Ward's and Kurt Herzog's in the world a royalty for showing us how to do a slimline?

Share what you are comfortable with.
 
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It is a rainy day and this topic has gotten me over the hump of the day! It is now on the downside to head home.

There are 2 sides as I see it. The one I stated earlier, more or less a give and take stance.

The other is I understand the time, money, ect invested in your design. (Which are in a class of their own IMO).

So yes it is a double edged sword.

Are there people that would work with direction on your tech? Yes.
Are there lurkers waiting for the beans to drop and instantly grab it and go back in the corner waiting for the next great thing? Yes.

I guess it boils down to "Damned if you do Damned if you don't" ~author unknown!
 
SOME of us DID pay the originators.

Before there was a "widely accepted" internet, we read books. From Dick Sing, usually. So, yes the guys who started "penmaking" were paid royalties on their books.

We also attended demonstrations (which were fee based).

Don Ward (It'sVirgil) is a demonstrator at AAW events, for which HE is paid. Kurt Herzog is also a demonstrator who is paid.

So, not all knowledge has been free and, in some venues, knowledge still has a value.

So, feel free to use whatever knowledge you have in any way you see fit. It is YOURS.
 
Personally, I've never had a problem sharing anything I've learned or developed. I too have learned plenty here. What I do strive to do is create designs that will have a signature look such that when someone looks at one of my pens they can tell its from me. I think you have done this pretty well with your cigar pens and though I don't recall seeing others, I think you have achieved this. A good artist can teach technique but the truly gifted student will take it in a new direction. The non gifted will never duplicate the original even with direction. Don't fear teaching. In the long run it will make you better.
 
ragz said:
I really hope I'm wrong on this but...
The problem here as I see it is you are worried about how this affects your bottom dollar. Do you really think that if someone that is say 1500 miles from you will affect your sales that much if you show them how to do it? If that's the case shouldn't we all be paying the Don Ward's and Kurt Herzog's in the world a royalty for showing us how to do a slimline?

Share what you are comfortable with.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments - keep em coming. I'm not feeling any angst or heavy protection feelings here... I'm just opening up a topic that is certainly often talked about among artists in the communities that I'm involved in and it's a good topic. I do this for the creativity. I would also like to make a little money on something unique so I can support my creativity. You get online and try selling a standard kit pen and there are 100 others 1500 miles in every direction competing to sell the same thing. I'm not even breaking even on kit pen sales! 1500 miles means nothing in this digital age. I think the key here is not to read in too much defensive info..... I'm not interested in convincing anyone of anything .... I am just interested in what others think about the topic and I enjoy the opinions and conversations.

Thanks

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ed4copies said:
SOME of us DID pay the originators.

Before there was a "widely accepted" internet, we read books. From Dick Sing, usually. So, yes the guys who started "penmaking" were paid royalties on their books.

We also attended demonstrations (which were fee based).

Don Ward (It'sVirgil) is a demonstrator at AAW events, for which HE is paid. Kurt Herzog is also a demonstrator who is paid.

So, not all knowledge has been free and, in some venues, knowledge still has a value.

So, feel free to use whatever knowledge you have in any way you see fit. It is YOURS.
Click to expand...

It would be nice to do something in my craft one day that would allow for demonstrations. Wouldn't it be great to be a Bin Pho and get paid for traveling and demonstrating an exceptional craft! It's truly difficult to break in to something like that. Anyhow, thanks, Ed for your thoughts.

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BRobbins629 said:
Personally, I've never had a problem sharing anything I've learned or developed. I too have learned plenty here. What I do strive to do is create designs that will have a signature look such that when someone looks at one of my pens they can tell its from me. I think you have done this pretty well with your cigar pens and though I don't recall seeing others, I think you have achieved this. A good artist can teach technique but the truly gifted student will take it in a new direction. The non gifted will never duplicate the original even with direction. Don't fear teaching. In the long run it will make you better.
Click to expand...

Wow!

Nicely said. Thank you.

Regards,

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
How many people will actually go to the lengths to reproduce what they have learned when someone shares. The cigar pens are cool and Martin has a passion for them but not everyone will. They may try a few but find there passion in something else. Also this country is so vast that you may never run into the person that went to the lengths to reproduce what you created. It's the final product that that rarely gets copied in a custom product market and the volume would have to be in the millions to put a dent in your business. Sharing may also push you to create an even better product to compete with. The guys selling the tools and ideas to make stuff are the ones doing really well.

Jorge
 
Linarestribe said:
. The guys selling the tools and ideas to make stuff are the ones doing really well.

Jorge
Click to expand...

Boy, isn't that the truth!!
I don't think I would make much money on a book of how to make ASH! lol : )

Thanks, Jorge

Regards,

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
ed4copies said:
Eagle (not saint Eagle, just the guy who I knew well) made an early bullet cartridge pen. He did not have a place to sell them for the $100 plus he thought they were worth, so I sold a few for him.

Later, I MADE bullet cartridge pens and we saw each other again. He was astonished that MINE was nothing like HIS. Why didn't I copy the one I had, he asked.

Because I had never LOOKED at his design. I opened the pen to see what refill it took, so I could sell the pen, but had I looked at his design--mine would likely have been similar.

After seeing mine, he changed part of his design---at THAT POINT--we could SHARE!!! We both had knowledge that would HELP the other.

I have told a few people how I make these pens---I don't believe I have ever instructed someone on how Eagle did it---THAT was HIS knowledge, to give and take as HE preferred.

There are many pen designs that I have SEEN when visiting other members here, but those pens have never been SHOWN on IAP. The "clamor" over "TELL US how to do it", coupled with the "big boys" who copy the pen and have CHINA do it, have limited the visibility.

That's the way it is. Do with YOUR knowledge as YOU see fit.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, Ed.
I had never seen a cigar pen prior to making one. I actually was inspired by some blanks I had purchased in the classifieds. I received the wood and there was some sapwood and spalting on the ends and I thought "wow, that looks like a cigar with ash." I went down to the cigar shop, bought a few cigars, lit them up and let them burn (I actually used the vacuum since I hate the taste of cigar). Then I got started. Several versions later I really liked what I had and submitted it to the Pen Makers Guild. It was excepted and I was elated. I have never claimed to be the originator of a pen that looks like a cigar. But.... I have never seen one that looks exactly like mine. I am proud of that. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I do see one.. and that's great.

Now... had I not gotten info from this forum on closed-end pens - and purchased the closed end mandrel from PSI (with the DVD - and yes this cost money) then I would have never ventured here.

I got a creative idea inspired by nature (a piece of wood) and ran with it. It is a unique expression of my creativity and will always have meaning to me even if it is copied by others.

This is a great thread. Thanks for keeping the responses on topic!

Martin

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Raphael painted the "School of Athens" mural after observing Michelangelo's painting process on the Sistene Chapel roof.

Raphael would observe Michelangelo painting the iconic ceiling, and thus learned the techniques and style...but he didn't copy it exactly - he claimed the style, learned the art, and adapted it to his own talents.

Michelangelo created the style, and Raphael made it his own. Without having observed Michelangelo, Raphael would not have been able to create his own masterpiece; and the world would have lost out.

Sharing of knowledge and techniques are essential to developing a craft, in my mind. I'm a teacher, however, so I firmly believe in building on bases of knowledge, and sharing knowledge with each other.

That being said, I never worry that someone is going to copy an essay I wrote because I told them my thought process - they can use that thought process and come up with their own...

The flip side of the coin - I wouldn't learn a thing from Michelangelo, because I cannot hope to compete with his art...by the same token, I don't think you need to worry about competition, because your pens are also art - replication would not be easy.

But wouldn't there be more joy and pride in seeing someone else taking your pen and making it their own through their own innovation? You might lose some money, somehow, by having others copy your pens - but you'd have the satisfaction of knowing that you helped step up the craft in a huge way.

The only proprietary bit is the ash - others have shared how to make a closed-end pen, and now there are commercial tools to make them. The business world always finds a way to profit - but there's no stopping that wagon, and innovation would suffer if money always stood in the way.

Like I've said many times, I likely have a different personal philosophy than most - but that's because I'm a teacher, I suppose...

Just my philosophical take on it,
Andrew
 
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There is a lot of great info on here and talent. Not everyone will say here you go this is the way I do it. We all have benefited from each other, and will hold some things back. You can point them in a direction but let them work on it themselves," better feeling of accomplishment for me that is when I had to WORK on it". I will make suggestions but it also leaves something for them to try and work towards.
 
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