CA won't stick

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crunch

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The blank is African Blackwood. I cut it to length, 200 deg in the toaster oven, weighed until no change. 1 week to re acclimate to the shop 220-1000 grit radial and lineal sanding. Mylands sanding sealer at 1000, 2 coats, re sanded 3 times. Sanding is just below bushing diameter to accommodate the CA finish. 5 coats Stick Fast thin, 10 min between. 15 coats SF medium. Same wait time. The CA is coating the bushings so I scraped it off right up to the edge of the blank, lathe running. I get a de lamination...? at the bushings, not the main body. This is not my 1st rodeo. I've made 100's of wood pens but keep getting this result. Not on every one but about 10%. On different woods also, some work, some don't
I'm at a loss. I know there are a ton of threads here to address the finish process, I just can't see what I may be doing wrong. Is 1000 grit too smooth to adhere to? Heat buildup from "parting" the excess CA off the bushings..... I really don't know what I may be doing wrong. The blank is clean, so are the bushings.
So I'm going to scrape all the CA off and resand/refinish, I tried to just scrape down to the wood at the bushings....yeah right.
Any thoughts are welcome.

EDIT: I should also say that after barrel trimming, either mechanical or by sanding disc, I use a Q-tip and thin CA to seal the ends of my wood pen blanks, Just an added precaution to water infiltration during the wet sanding process
 
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Curly

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I wouldn't sand quite as fine, 600 at most, and I would skip the sealer. Before applying the first thin coat of CA I would wipe the blank with Acetone to remove the surface oil on the wood. I would finish between centres, turn too for that matter, with the cones wiped with a little paste wax. When done you can sand the ends of any excess CA by rubbing by hand on some 280 or so paper. At that point I go to the buffer but micro mesh and polishing compound is fine too.
 

crunch

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Western MA.
I wouldn't sand quite as fine, 600 at most, and I would skip the sealer. Before applying the first thin coat of CA I would wipe the blank with Acetone to remove the surface oil on the wood. I would finish between centres, turn too for that matter, with the cones wiped with a little paste wax. When done you can sand the ends of any excess CA by rubbing by hand on some 280 or so paper. At that point I go to the buffer but micro mesh and polishing compound is fine too.
I used Denatured alcohol but I'll try the acetone next time I don't use cones so that the wetsanded finish is correct, But finishing is not my issue, the CA not sticking to the wood is
 

Jay

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I have made a couple of items from Africa Blackwood and have had no trouble with CA finish sticking as you have indicated. The only significant difference between what I have done and your description is the sealer. I do not use a sealer.

Just a suggestion. Take a small piece of the wood. Seal on side then apply CA. Don't seal the other side and apply CA.
 

jttheclockman

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I would throw that stickfast CA away as far as I could throw it. I know many people have good success with it but if you go back and I have been here a long long time, what CA gives the most trouble?? It is Stickfast. Before you ask I use Satelite Hot stuff CA and have since I started doing CA finish and never ever one failure nd I use all kinds of woods. I wipe down with acetone before I finish and make sure it is dry before doing 3 thin coats then 4 to 6 med coats. My opinion.
 

crunch

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I have made a couple of items from Africa Blackwood and have had no trouble with CA finish sticking as you have indicated. The only significant difference between what I have done and your description is the sealer. I do not use a sealer.

Just a suggestion. Take a small piece of the wood. Seal on side then apply CA. Don't seal the other side and apply CA.
There are way too many sanding processes to achieve the same effect on a spinning blank as opposed to a bench test, No sealer..ok I'll do it. Acetone has been suggested, I'll try it, Sanding to 600 instead of 1000 ,,ok that too. I'm leaning towards the 1000 is too smooth but I've used AfBl and the same process many times with no problems. It is just what we do and try to make it right I guess. It just is disappointing after all that prep, that "I" thought was correct and to have the end result as a failure
 

crunch

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I would throw that stickfast CA away as far as I could throw it. I know many people have good success with it but if you go back and I have been here a long long time, what CA gives the most trouble?? It is Stickfast. Before you ask I use Satelite Hot stuff CA and have since I started doing CA finish and never ever one failure nd I use all kinds of woods. I wipe down with acetone before I finish and make sure it is dry before doing 3 thin coats then 4 to 6 med coats. My opinion.
Thank you. I have been researching other CAs. For the most part SF has worked fine for me. I'll look into what you suggested.
 

leehljp

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Steve, It is nothing you're doing wrong. Oily woods do not usually have great adhesion. And it is not necessarily the wood being too smooth, as CA is/was used to mount rear view mirrors onto windshields for 50 years without coming off (for the most part, but on rare occasions.). So it is not the "smoothness level" itself. Yours come off because of the stress on the ends that happens when the bushings and CA "snap," and not just yours.

You might see the term "TBC - Turning Between Centers" on occasion here at IAP. Back around 2007 or so, I got plumbing frustrated with the CA lifting on ebony about 50% of the time. No matter what I did - even if I scored the CA at the bushing line down to the bushing, it would break off and lift the CA at the end of the blank. I enquired on this forum if anyone knew of a solution to finishing without bushings. Two fellows, "Rifleman" and "JohnmyCNC" both answered that they read of a guy (not on this forum) who turned blanks without using a mandrel and between the centers of the head stock and tail stock. I was living and working in Japan at the time so I did not have quick access to a drive center, so I made my own out of a short round stock bar of aluminum.

I started turning the blanks with the bushings down to size, and then when finishing, I pulled the bushings off and CA'ed and finished it without the bushings. There is a step up from the drive/live center to the edge of the turned blank, and that was just enough to keep the CA from lifting. I sanded the CA'd ends down to the edge instead of trying to turn it off, and had no problems after that.

"TBC" kinda scares some people, and after learning how to turn on the mandrel, they don't want to have to go though another "learning curve". It is not complicated and much much simpler than mandrels. It is the same as this: Put the blank with the bushings between the pointed live center and a pointed drive (dead) center. Turn. Take bushings off for finishing. "CA Lifting" solved.

On The Lathe . . .
Drive Center: ->
Bushings: =
[Blank]
Live Center<-
For turning to size: ->=[Blank]=<-

For finishing: ->Blank<-

Add the bushings for turning, take them (bushings) off for Finishing.
 

crunch

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Western MA.
Steve, It is nothing you're doing wrong. Oily woods do not usually have great adhesion. And it is not necessarily the wood being too smooth, as CA is/was used to mount rear view mirrors onto windshields for 50 years without coming off (for the most part, but on rare occasions.). So it is not the "smoothness level" itself. Yours come off because of the stress on the ends that happens when the bushings and CA "snap," and not just yours.

You might see the term "TBC - Turning Between Centers" on occasion here at IAP. Back around 2007 or so, I got plumbing frustrated with the CA lifting on ebony about 50% of the time. No matter what I did - even if I scored the CA at the bushing line down to the bushing, it would break off and lift the CA at the end of the blank. I enquired on this forum if anyone knew of a solution to finishing without bushings. Two fellows, "Rifleman" and "JohnmyCNC" both answered that they read of a guy (not on this forum) who turned blanks without using a mandrel and between the centers of the head stock and tail stock. I was living and working in Japan at the time so I did not have quick access to a drive center, so I made my own out of a short round stock bar of aluminum.

I started turning the blanks with the bushings down to size, and then when finishing, I pulled the bushings off and CA'ed and finished it without the bushings. There is a step up from the drive/live center to the edge of the turned blank, and that was just enough to keep the CA from lifting. I sanded the CA'd ends down to the edge instead of trying to turn it off, and had no problems after that.

"TBC" kinda scares some people, and after learning how to turn on the mandrel, they don't want to have to go though another "learning curve". It is not complicated and much much simpler than mandrels. It is the same as this: Put the blank with the bushings between the pointed live center and a pointed drive (dead) center. Turn. Take bushings off for finishing. "CA Lifting" solved.

On The Lathe . . .
Drive Center: ->
Bushings: =
[Blank]
Live Center<-
For turning to size: ->=[Blank]=<-

For finishing: ->Blank<-

Add the bushings for turning, take them (bushings) off for Finishing.
Ok that makes sense. When I turn/sand wood I leave it just below the bushing diameter so that on final wet sanding you sand to the correct size. So you are saying just do one section at a time. I can do that. I'm semi retired and have a ...LOT of time lol
 

tomas

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Thank you. I have been researching other CAs. For the most part SF has worked fine for me. I'll look into what you suggested.
I have been using EZ Bond for about 8 years and have always had good success with it. I also us DNA.

Tomas
 

WriteON

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I would throw that stickfast CA away as far as I could throw it. I know many people have good success with it but if you go back and I have been here a long long time, what CA gives the most trouble?? It is Stickfast. Before you ask I use Satelite Hot stuff CA and have since I started doing CA finish and never ever one failure nd I use all kinds of woods. I wipe down with acetone before I finish and make sure it is dry before doing 3 thin coats then 4 to 6 med coats. My opinion.
Stickfast is substandard glue. Also would not use CA over Mylands.
 

crunch

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Western MA.
I have been using EZ Bond for about 8 years and have always had good success with it. I also us DNA.

Tomas
I'm going to try many things. As I said, SF has never been a problem but occasionally, which I chalked up to a poor prep. But I know that is wrong, I'm pretty OCD on what I do and try to finish. So EZ is an option to explore
 

FGarbrecht

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I called Mylands and asked specifically if it would be ok. I was given the green on CA over it. But that is why we are here, to share our experiences
I sometimes use CA over Myland's. You need to let the Myland's dry completely though (at least a couple hours or overnight) because there is something in Myland's that functions as a CA accelerator which can really cause problems. Don't ask how I know this. Anyway, Myland's is fine and can give a nice looking finish, especially on open pore woods (although I wouldn't be inclined to use it on Af Blackwood), and can safely be covered with CA as long as you wait long enough.
 

crunch

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I sometimes use CA over Myland's. You need to let the Myland's dry completely though (at least a couple hours or overnight) because there is something in Myland's that functions as a CA accelerator which can really cause problems. Don't ask how I know this. Anyway, Myland's is fine and can give a nice looking finish, especially on open pore woods (although I wouldn't be inclined to use it on Af Blackwood), and can safely be covered with CA as long as you wait long enough.
Like I said before. I called Mylands and asked specifically if it was a good thing to do. I was told no problem, They never said " wait a day" though I can see that as an option. I don't HAVE to use a sealer. I haven't on others and had the same result with the adherence. As this thread gets bigger then others may glean understanding of what not to do. At the least what options are available
 

leehljp

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Ok that makes sense. When I turn/sand wood I leave it just below the bushing diameter so that on final wet sanding you sand to the correct size. So you are saying just do one section at a time. I can do that. I'm semi retired and have a ...LOT of time lol

Yes, one at a time. Some people prefer doing both at the same time and that is OK; however for quite a few, the mandrel problems of wobble and then there is the problems you are experiencing with CA lifting from the blank when separating the bushings.

I can turn two individual blanks in about the same time as two on a mandrel after I calculate using spacers and using the knurled nut and and getting everything set up. With one at a time, it is easy to stop the lathe, take the blank off, inspect it, put it back on and go back to turning or finishing is a matter of 20 to 25 seconds.
 

crunch

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Western MA.
Yes, one at a time. Some people prefer doing both at the same time and that is OK; however for quite a few, the mandrel problems of wobble and then there is the problems you are experiencing with CA lifting from the blank when separating the bushings.

I can turn two individual blanks in about the same time as two on a mandrel after I calculate using spacers and using the knurled nut and and getting everything set up. With one at a time, it is easy to stop the lathe, take the blank off, inspect it, put it back on and go back to turning or finishing is a matter of 20 to 25 seconds.
I use a "mandrel saver" A through live center but still, one at a time is fine with me, as long as it works lol. As for a "Dead center", a lil CA in the bearings of a junk live one would work. I have some rock maple. I'll make one...jeez I have a lathe...go figure lol. Thank you for your input. There are many things I now have as an option to try. We get set in our ways..." It worked last time....." Nothing wrong with trying new stuff. Learning is what we are here for.
 

FGarbrecht

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Like I said before. I called Mylands and asked specifically if it was a good thing to do. I was told no problem, They never said " wait a day" though I can see that as an option. I don't HAVE to use a sealer. I haven't on others and had the same result with the adherence. As this thread gets bigger then others may glean understanding of what not to do. At the least what options are available
Just relating my experience using Myland's in combination with CA; I have never had problems with adherence of the CA so perhaps my comments are not germane to the discussion. Just a warning to those who like (or would like to try Mylands), if you apply CA immediately after the Myland's dries to touch, it (the CA) is accelerated and gets extremely hot and smokes. It is not pleasant to have burning hot CA adhering to your fingers as you can imagine (if you are using plastic or a gloved finger to apply the CA, it will melt through and get on your skin). If you wait a while, no heating or smoking is evident.
 

WriteON

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I called Mylands and asked specifically if it would be ok. I was given the green on CA over it. But that is why we are here, to share our experiences
Only reason I say do not use CA on top of Mylands...... Does it really change the finish? I use one or the other. I might use EEE after many applications of CA. I'm not saying any is better than the other. I think CA alone brings out the finish and protects it like a champ.
 

robutacion

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I use a "mandrel saver" A through live center but still, one at a time is fine with me, as long as it works lol. As for a "Dead center", a lil CA in the bearings of a junk live one would work. I have some rock maple. I'll make one...jeez I have a lathe...go figure lol. Thank you for your input. There are many things I now have as an option to try. We get set in our ways..." It worked last time....." Nothing wrong with trying new stuff. Learning is what we are here for.
While that is so true, there is nothing wrong with it, we tent to stick what works for us even though we may not have experienced all the options out there, we all (well, most of us) tend to be sceptical to try new things when our results have been OK/good, from experience, many of the times where we look for something different is when things start to go wrong even though, we can't explain why, again, there is nothing wrong to challenge yourself to try new things/products particularly due to the fact that new improved products are coming into the market regularly, most of them by influences from customers that ask questions and make complaints to manufacturers/suppliers, all manufacturers want you to use their product so they try to accommodate your requests or at least improve on what is possible to them.

It is also true that is a lot normal/easier for us to suggest products/methods/procedures we like and feel comfortable with, this doesn't mean that only because it works for us it will work for everybody but still, that is what we do. Among all the suggestions on the same issue, the solution(s) are in most cases mixed in between all those suggestions particularly when it comes to CA applications/issues so, no one is totally right or wrong.

The issues with finishes and oily woods is not a new one, some folks have troubles not being aware that a particular wood they are using has natural oils within it and that friction/heat will promote more oil coming to the surface and those that know this reality either avoid those woods or find ways to minimize that surface oil and apply a finish that stays or at least appear to stick but often and over time will peel off.

If I may also give some suggestions, not making the wood supper smooth will help, cleaning with acetone is essential, and if using a CA finish, EZ bond is my preference and their super thin red label 5 cups viscosity is ideal for this type of application, the thinner the CA the more penetration/adhesion it will have, 2 to 3 applications should be sufficient, the TBC will help prevent ends separation.

Hope you get it right...!

Cheers
George
 

ramaroodle

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Seattle
I wouldn't sand quite as fine, 600 at most, and I would skip the sealer. Before applying the first thin coat of CA I would wipe the blank with Acetone to remove the surface oil on the wood. I would finish between centres, turn too for that matter, with the cones wiped with a little paste wax. When done you can sand the ends of any excess CA by rubbing by hand on some 280 or so paper. At that point I go to the buffer but micro mesh and polishing compound is fine too.
+1 400 is all that's needed 600 grit at the most. The CA is the top coat and sealer so sanding to 1000 and using sanding sealer really serves no purpose.

5 coats of thin with 10 mins between then 15 coats of medium is overkill. Without accelerator that must take forever. Then micro mesh? You might consider looking into GluBoost (4 coats), some .0000 steel wool and then some Dr. Kirk's or EEE and then some plastic polish. Skip the micro mesh. 10 mins total. It's the "new thing". Dr. Kirk's
 
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