Buying Advice

[Smitty37]

Many new comers here ask for buying advice "Which kits are the best buy?" invariably they get a lot of responses and just as invariably the responses are all over the lot. Ranging from "my favorite kit is ____ to, which vendor has the "best" kits to "why don't you go kitless and make your own - and not buy any kits". Seldom is there a consensus of opinion and often there is downright disagreement.

Taken as a whole most of those threads seem useless to me because to my way of thinking getting so many answers is about the same as getting no answer at all.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't have someone work out a canned answer that can be put in an FAQ somewhere and just point them to that?

It seems to me there should be some common pointers we can give new people to help them decide.

 

[76winger]

Kind of like a beginners buying guide?

The hard part would be keeping up. Some vendors have have literally doubled their pen lineups in the last year or so.

 

[ed4copies]

That won't be easy, Smitty!!

I believe the slimline is a lousy place to start, but nearly everyone starts there.

Single tube style is easier, makes a nicer looking pen, but it does cost a little more for the "kits". (Sierra and other similar designs)

Cigars are also very forgiving, but some also claim they are too heavy.

Of course we have ignored the "comfort" pen--a "fully developed" slimline. And it's "take offs" with different centerbands, but the same bushings.

Then you break into the "higher cost" ballpoints, made by each of the many vendors.

Next we would talk about rollerball-fountain pens.

The baron-navigator being the smallest diameter, followed by the jr. gent series.

So, there is a structure---now let everyone tear it apart.

 

[Smitty37]

That won't be easy, Smitty!!

I believe the slimline is a lousy place to start, but nearly everyone starts there.

Single tube style is easier, makes a nicer looking pen, but it does cost a little more for the "kits". (Sierra and other similar designs)

Cigars are also very forgiving, but some also claim they are too heavy.

Of course we have ignored the "comfort" pen--a "fully developed" slimline. And it's "take offs" with different centerbands, but the same bushings.

Then you break into the "higher cost" ballpoints, made by each of the many vendors.

Next we would talk about rollerball-fountain pens.

The baron-navigator being the smallest diameter, followed by the jr. gent series.

So, there is a structure---now let everyone tear it apart.

It looks like a place to start.

I agree that Sierra single barrel style is easier to turn and prettier than Slimlines. Compared to Standard Slimlines I think about double the cost.

I really like comforts myself and was never able to figure out why so few people seem to turn them.

 

[ed4copies]

Comfort pen (without the rubber piece) is not real interesting. They didn't sell well, until I started making them with resins and diamondwood.

The diamondwood sold especially well and, after a couple dozen, I learned to turn it without shattering.

 

[OOPS]

I can give you my perspective on the 7 mm pens in general. Did you ever see a cartoon showing a huge log of a tree going into the factory, chips flying like crazy, and out of the other end of the factory comes a single toothpick? THAT is what making a 7 mm pen feels like, to me. You work and work and work, and mind you, we were being taught how to make pens for the first time (and some had never worked a lathe before). You work and work and work, and you're mentally exhausted by the time you get to the part where you're close enough to the bushings, and each cut means the difference between success and ruining the blank! And what you have at the end is a pen that is too small for many people to enjoy writing with. I made a total of 5 Slimlines and that's probably enough for my lifetime.

I agree that the first pen that people should learn with is the Sierra. Easy, single tube, assembles easily and makes a fine pen that anyone would be proud to own, and write with.

As to your comments on Cigars being too large for some, that might be true. I seems like the selection of "large" pens has been fully developed by the industry, whether Cigar, rollerballs, etc. The middle ground between 7 mm and the large pens seems barren by comparison. For instance, I have made a few of the Woodcraft Retro pens, which uses a 9 mm drill bit. Most people do not like the classic pen design at all, but I find that its a nice, comfortable size, and writes well. I think a medium sized pen, such as this, could be a popular alternative, if it was available in a durable plating. Both of you have more expertise than I do, so what do you think?

 

[Rick P]

The reason you get so many responses to those threads is simple.......we are all right. There is no "best pen" to start with it's all subjective. I despise slims, loath the little buggers I have only turned one pen based on the design that I was at all happy with and it only had the tubes and transmission, in fact it had no exposed metal at all. Others LOVE slims......it's subjective and as such there will always be a ton of differing opinions.

Pat or standard answers personally dont sit well for me, every situation is a new opportunity to learn and standard answers tend to limit discovery. The ideas of new members are a source of inspiration and new turners deserve more than see answer number 37a.

 

[Rick P]

Oops, spot on man!

 

[Smitty37]

The reason you get so many responses to those threads is simple.......we are all right. There is no "best pen" to start with it's all subjective. I despise slims, loath the little buggers I have only turned one pen based on the design that I was at all happy with and it only had the tubes and transmission, in fact it had no exposed metal at all. Others LOVE slims......it's subjective and as such there will always be a ton of differing opinions.

Pat or standard answers personally dont sit well for me, every situation is a new opportunity to learn and standard answers tend to limit discovery. The ideas of new members are a source of inspiration and new turners deserve more than see answer number 37a.

Agreed. That's the problem I'm looking to get around. That isn't what a newby needs.

 

[Tom D]

The nice thing about slims is they are inexpensive, you can buy a bag of 7mm tubes for not much money and turn until your hearts content. I have many tubes that I have turned that will never make it as a pen but they make great reminders as to what not to do. I haven't turned a slim in a long time but I sure am glad they were there when I started out.

 

[leehljp]

With looking at these kind of threads over the years and all of the ranges, the two that pop up consistently have already been named - Slimline family and Sierra family.

So, you/we will not be wrong in saying that the most popular for beginners ARE Slimlines and Sierras.

How about coming up with a list like this:

Slimline family
Pros:
Cheap,
Versatile
Common Replaceable Parts
Difficulty puts beginner through a tough regimine of practice, which is good! :biggrin:

Cons:
Difficult to master as a first pen
(long straight sides, sizing,)
Requires beginner to use more difficult mandrel turning, fitting and adjustments, which is frustrating.

Sierra Family:
Pros:
one tube,
larger,
more forgiving in sizing.
Easily allows movement from Mandrel to TBC to figure out which method one likes best.

Cons:
More expensive than slimlines, (especially if on a tight budget after purchasing a lathe and initial equipment. Still not that expensive as finer pen components and kits.)

To the newbie - Others pens: Of course many have started with other lines and you can too, it is just that these are the most common two groups and from experience of thousands of pen makers over several years, these comments are the most common.


**********

These are just my ideas, take them, change them, mix them, add or take away. You could leave off my last line comments :wink: on mandrels if you wish. NO copyright there. Just a thought or idea to get us started.

It seems to me that it is best to condense recommendations in a form of "Pros & Cons" list and in concise form. From there, dialog and questions can come. The problem with long drawn out paragaphs is that it loses the reader and injects too much personal passion for or against particular pen lines, which in turn defeats the purpose of recommendations that we seek. Notice my one line comments under "cons". That detracts from the overall purpose. Keep it simple. Comments should be at the bottom!

 

[PenPal]

When I was 14 yrs old a sweet young thing wrote in my autograph book the following.

Love many, trust few, but always paddle your own canoe.

When Aristotle taught at the edge of the sea the value of breathing and how important it is
forever, my experience was I wanted to make pens so earnestly I treated it seriously and as a good friend a Solicitor paraphrased all his remarks (without predudice) this also helps me. Another mate seems forever ago bought an Hispano Suiza (not sure of the spelling) and found petrol was a very high cost (the car seemed a block and a half long to me at 17 yrs of age). So what did he do well what he did was learn about carburretors and he designed and patented a carby that gave him using our gallons imperial in excess of 35 miles to the gallon. All the nay sayers fell silent by the wayside, a wealthy oil company bought the patent rights and buried it from commercial use (fact).

Every time I buy a set of tyres someone says to me I can buy wholesale or off the back of a shipping container or by the way better quality of product. My choices of motor vehicles since age 18 yrs of age was always determined by me for my needs etc. No amount of others predudice has moved me in the least. The first car was an A Model Ford Tourer but I digress.

Now with regard to pen kits its horses for courses, do I have a commercial bias or interest?
no, what is the purpose/, should degree of difficulty really matter harking back to the Hispano or the need to breathe how much do we seek from or to profit therewith.

Make up our own minds equip ourselves by preparation with respect for others opinions.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I think new turners think the more expensive the kit the more difficult to make. The one advantage to a slim is if you tear a chunk out of a blank you can still recover and get a pen. I also agree that IMHO a slim isn't the best to start with. Woodcraft has a pen that takes a parker refill and uses 8 mm tubes and has a large centerband and tapers to each end that would be a good starter because it doesn't look like a stick when done and you can practice putting a little shape in a pen.
As for what to advise a new turner as to a first pen, Hank has a good idea with the pros and cons of each. And perhaps a list of what more experienced turners think beginners should stay away from at first.

 

[IPD_Mr]

Love many, trust few, but always paddle your own canoe.

I love it!


While the idea is good the answer is going to vary as greatly as the opinions that are offered.

Personally I say let the new people ask the questions over and over and we reply over and over. This gets the new folks involved and talking on the forum. The other way it lends to people to continue to just read and never participate and come out of the shadows.

 

[jeff]

This is a little off in the weeds, but I've considered providing an "IAP starter/sampler kit" to new members. A variety of kits and blanks for something near cost. Vendors would sell us items at near cost, provide whatever advertising material they wish, then I'd bundle it all together with a couple IAP logo items (maybe safety glasses and a window sticker) then make it available to new members at just enough to cover the cost.

Sort of the welcome wagon concept: A trusted organization introducing a new resident to the local merchants.

Just thinking out loud here!

 

[Smitty37]

This is a little off in the weeds, but I've considered providing an "IAP starter/sampler kit" to new members. A variety of kits and blanks for something near cost. Vendors would sell us items at near cost, provide whatever advertising material they wish, then I'd bundle it all together with a couple IAP logo items (maybe safety glasses and a window sticker) then make it available to new members at just enough to cover the cost.

Sort of the welcome wagon concept: A trusted organization introducing a new resident to the local merchants.

Just thinking out loud here!

I've been kicking around a similar idea - kits/blanks/bushings/drill bits/and maybe some sanding and finishing things bundled for one price. Your idea could save me the trouble.

 

[Kinger]

I think a starter bundle like that is a great idea, I spent hours other day looking around at diff sites trying to peice together what i thought would make a good starter set pretty sure I most likely missed something somewhere will find out on wednesday. But with all the diff kits and diff bushings and drill bits and everything else it really is confusing for somebody new at this to figure out

 

[Chrome]

Hi All,

A very interesting thread. Speaking as a beginner in the world of pen turning, and currently gearing up to hopefully produce many more, I think the idea of an IAP 'starter kit' is a great one.

I've only made 12 pens so far (picture below), and they're all the dreaded slimline ones. Why did I choose these as my first outing in pen turning?... Simple answer, price and availability. My logic was if I messed up it would not cost too much, and they were easy to buy via the eBay/Paypal route. I've since bought a couple of Sierra, Jr Chairman and American kits, but as my last lathe is consigned to the bin and I'm waiting for a new one to arrive I'm waiting to get started again. I'm very interested in using and casting resin for my pens and have recently bought a pressure pot to help with this as I see it as a major activity in my future and I'm very enthusiastic. I want to create unique and very desirable pens.

Here's most of the pens I've made so far... left to right, purple heart, chocobolo, elm, elm, zebrano, elm, mahogany, laburnum, elm and resin.

Appreciate any comments...

Cheers, Chrome