Bring Back the Critiques Forum?

[gerryr]

The more I see the comments, the more ambivalent I get. As I mentioned and others also, you can't real a genuine critique from a photograph. Frankly, some of the photos posted on SOYP are so bad it's hard to tell anything except that it's a pen. If those are the kind of photos that would get posted in a critique forum, the whole exercise is useless. Any photo posted in a critique forum has to be razor sharp and the lighting and color have to be near perfect. I had originally asked that the critique forum be brought back, but I've changed my mind. I'm no longer in favor of it. However, that's only my opinion and everyone else is entitled to theirs.[^]

 

[panini]

You can critque the work as much as you want good or bad or awesome...Still the beauty of the project will be in the eye of the beholder...With the photo gallery each member see and will get ideas from eachother which that will experiment with each future project that they make...

 

[Skye]

Lou, I dont know what point you're trying to make here.

Sure, there are comments and nits on pens in the SOYP forum now, but the point (of the people that are for it)is that we're not sure they're supposed to be there. For the most part, I feel like I'm kicking sand at someone in SOYP when I point out the problems. I do it regardless, because they need to improve (fit, sand, etc) or I just dont like something about the pen, but some people cant take a critisizm.

I dont remember who it was, but I posted a comment a while back on someone's baron. It looked, from the photo, that they really missed the bushing on the thing. This guy flew off the handle and acted like a 5 year old girl. I tried to find the post but couldent. I want to say it was a BOW one, probably close to a year ago. Prime example, too bad I cant find it! [!]

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.

I say No to the critique forum.

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Originally posted by Penmonkey
<br />Many times it's hard to Critique If you can't see the pen well. It would be almost like we are critiquing the pictures. I say don't bring it back.

I agree, it's hard to see inside a picture and at times make critiques and comments on the execution and process oppertunities for someone to improve, some are more obvious though too.

I would love to see live a Fanger finish for example, but we rely on one sense when we view a picture, I sure wish we could see a pen in virtual 3D, even feel it.

I think that the internet format is ripe for misunderstandings and hurt feelings...I'd say for the sake of balance I would not participate on such a forum, I have seen them before, they have very short half lives...

Some people are able to critique well and communicate in such a way as to be supportive, other people have a problem with choosing words that help, others have a problem reading words and thier true meaning...not a good mix.

[][]

So does that count as a vote??

[]

 

[cozee]

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
<br />After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.

I say No to the critique forum.

I agree and do the same. I say no. This thread is a good example of why.[]

 

[olsenla]

Since Jeff asked, I am going to vote no to a critiques forum. I have lurked mostly for the past two years, and I saw what the last critiques forum degenerated to. I would like to see more effort put into getting together regionally, in person. That is where you can really find out if your fit,finish, and design is good. That is really hard to do from a photo. JMHO

Larry

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by jeff
<br />Let's discuss.

I was out of town yesterday at Klingspor for their woodworking show.[]
<b><u>If the Critiques Forum were to be resurrected as it was set up as before I would vote against it also</u></b>[^]
BUT
<b>Jeff's post said let's discuss, not let's vote so here goes.</b>For those of you who have been around for a while I started concentrating on glue ups laminations , inlays and kit mofications over a year ago.
I am not content to turn B2B pens from solid wood.Before you get your panties in a wad,I do not look down on those who make pens in that manner.<b>We all have different goals in this craft.Mine is to make pens that do not look like anyone else's.That's it pure and simple.Not to make them better, to make them DIFFERENT.</b>
Around the beginning of June 05 I wrote Jeff and suggested a forum for experimental work and suggested the "Testing Zone"
I envisioned a forum that might contain posts of blanks that we are working on.
Pens that have had components changed, added hidden what ever could be done so that he finished pen did not have the appearance the manufacturer intended.
It may also have posts that included the request for opinions of patterns or colors or material for blanks.
An example would be Mesquite mans request for input on the cactus blank,(I think it was Mesquite man)
When The Critiques forum was first instituted I immediately saw a problem.
The SOYP forum would not allow any comments other than NPGJ unless otherwise requested.
If a critique was wanted it should have gone into the Critiques forum.
The word"critiques" covers a broad spectrum.I suppose it would fill the bill for what I had in mind, but what I was thinking about was a forum that would further experimental work,get input on what direction might be taken with a design.
If you go to the discussions page the SOYP forum is described as"Let's see your best work! "
In truth it has become"LWIDT!"Look What I Did Today!"

I would suggest a new forum more in line what I suggested to Jeff over a year ago.
Here are a couple of ideas I had in mind to be included for guidelines

1The "sticky(I never read)that states the guidelines be included on the composition page for the post.It need not appear after the post is submitted.

2.the format be set up so the original poster cannot reply to subsequent posts.( the op could answer specific questions via PM if s/he chose)

3.all pictures be submitted on a neutral background with no accouterments.

4.No photo editing other than resizing."drag and drop" pictures lose definition.

If you want someone to take the time to offer their ideas(for some of us it is an effort to type) then the least you can do is post a picture of your work as it appears in real life(natural light would be nice with no shadows) for visual assessment.Don't post catalog pictures.

5.B2B pens would be allowed if the material used was not considered a "normal pen making medium"

<b>It is virtually impossible to offer a critiques on a finish and even sometimes fit is obliterated by photographic styles.</b>

A forum such as this would need very little moderation.
I do suggest a moderator or a number of moderators be named* who have the power to move any post immediately if it is suspect of not fitting in the posting guidelines
If and when the "violation" is corrected it be returned to the forum.Violations could include pictures posted with rocks shells or anything else that does not directly pertain to the subject the poster requested input on.NO EXTRANIOUS "props" other than something simple to display a pen.


<b>In short make it a forum that furthers an information exchange as stated in the mission statement for this site in this craft.</b>
BTW posting pictures is an exchange of information.[]





The SYOP should be schanged to Look What I DID TOday!
The "Show us your best work" be removed from the description of SOYP
No posts other than NPGJ be allowed unless a request for comments is made.
I have about 32 more suggestions but this should be enough to get a <b>discussion </b>started as <b>Jeff suggested in his original post</b>.

edit in I wrote"named" But I wonder if anonymous moderators appointed by Jeff wouldn't be a good idea.I have always felt that a moderator should be a"voice" rom above and not tied in with any individualThis was an individual would be able to post a a regular member and no other members would have need to worry as to how they might post a comment.The moderators postition always seems to carry some type of"power" whther implied or real.

 

[dfurlano]

I vote blue... no I mean red.. no blue, red, blue, red... oh, just decide for me.

 

[Penmonkey]

Guys, I Critique my own pens as soon as they come off the lathe. I can see what is wrong. I can feel the finish myself. I decide what I'll do different next time. And then If it is worth showing off, THEN I GO SHOW IT OFF!!!

I don't need someone else to tell me if it is good or not. But I like hearing what others think about it.

 

[Skye]

Originally posted by cozee
<br />

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
<br />After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.

I say No to the critique forum.

I agree and do the same. I say no. This thread is a good example of why.[]

That's like my wife and I not agreeing on what car to buy, so we just walk everwhere instead.

If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.

 

[DocStram]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc



3.all pictures be submitted on a neutral background with no accouterments.

<b>
Everything </b> that eagle just said .... except for the word accouterments. That's almost as good as my kinesthetics word that Skye made fun of!

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I'm sure others see what is happening here in this thread.

This is what the critique forum will be like. Is this what you are looking for Jeff?

 

[jeff]

I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.

So "critiques" in that forum would be what we intended in the first place. Constructive criticism of methods and outcomes of experiments. What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens. It'd have to be some partly finished thing, or an oddball blank or casting, or some other experimental prototype. The requestor would have to describe it, provide good photos, and ask for feedback on specific aspects of the experiment. Lacking any of that, the post would be rejected. Followups would not be moderated (they post without moderator review), but a moderator would watch the discussion and keep things civil.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Skye
<br />
If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Insert lame sig here --&gt; &lt;--

It would seem from your tag line that you also fall into that crowd?

 

[DocStram]

Originally posted by Mudder
<br />

Originally posted by Skye
<br />
If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Insert lame sig here --&gt; &lt;--

It would seem from your tag line that you also fall into that crowd?

Mudder ..... maybe it's because I'm an old guy or, sometimes, I'm just a little slow. I don't understand your post regarding Skye's tag line.

 

[Fangar]

Here were go again. Personally, if a pen is posted in the "Show off your pens" catgegory, it should be open for "Critique". Otherwise, why post it? I usually talk about ideas I am working through or different techniques in the appropriate forums (Casual, Tips, etc). If someone gets riled up over a, "Hey that is a nice pen, but the finish appears a little dull for my tastes", or "That color kit does not work with that blank", etc. or even, "That is only ugly arse pen", then there will be issues regardless.

I disliked the two different forums from the get go before. Why post in the SYOP and not the Critiques forum? Get rid of the SYOP and call it critiques if we must. I respect each and everyone's opinions of any of my submitted work, even if we don't see eye to eye (READ: they are wrong []) and I don't agree with them (READ: They are wrong[]). If ones skin is so thin that they get riled up over an opinion of a method, design, or of a finishing technique for example, then there might be other issues elsewhere that might not be related to pens.

Cheers,

Fangar

 

[melogic]

Originally posted by jeff
<br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

<b>Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.</b>

So "critiques" in that forum would be what we intended in the first place. Constructive criticism of methods and outcomes of experiments. What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens. It'd have to be some partly finished thing, or an oddball blank or casting, or some other experimental prototype. The requestor would have to describe it, provide good photos, and ask for feedback on specific aspects of the experiment. Lacking any of that, the post would be rejected. Followups would not be moderated (they post without moderator review), but a moderator would watch the discussion and keep things civil.

Any thoughts on that?

Jeff I like this idea. I think it sounds a lot like what eagle was talking about he had in mind. I feel a forum like this would benefit us better than a standard critiques forum. After watching the responses on this thread, I had changed my vote for a critiques forum to NO like so many others. I do feel a forum such as you described would be beneficial to many of us here. We all learn from our mistakes and we have in the past built on others findings and/or experiments.

 

[Skye]

Originally posted by Mudder

It would seem from your tag line that you also fall into that crowd?

I'm not following you either.

 

[gerryr]

I like Jeff's idea a lot. I think this sort of thing has a lot of potential to really expand our efforts outside the standard kit.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Jeff you have that forum here.

If you where start up your idea, I think not only should the original post be approved by a moderator but all follow up responses be approved also.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by jeff
<br />.....What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up).....

Does the above bother anyone as much as it bothers me??

How about a critique forum that is by permission only? I have seen it on other web sites. Initially everyone is permitted access. One moderator warning for folks who don't understand the concepts of politeness, respect and civility and then access will be revoked. I don't know if IAP has this capability or not; but maybe it is something worth considering. In theory is is a very nice concept. The forum is a tool that everyone is allowed to use unless they abuse it and if so their access to the tool is taken away. Mods might be much more willing to discipline offenders if they knew the person was only loosing access to a single forum and not the full board and could moderate more tightly than they do the general forums.

 

[ctEaglesc]

(a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens.

I like the idea or concept of the forum you outlined but I am not sure of the reasoning behind a "preapproval" by a moderator and frankly don't like the idea of that aspect of it.
I see a time lag thing happening.If I am working on something and want input, I Don't want to wait for someone to"approve" it.
What happens if traffic gets busy?
I believe self moderation would wotk just as well.
If something is posted that doesn't belong a P.M. could be sent to the powers that be stating why it shouldn't be on the forum.The post could be moved if necessary and reinstated or not, but tell the postere(who supposedly read the rules) as to why it shouldn't be on the forum.

Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

Wasn't that why the patent office was closed around 1803?(I may have the date wrong, but I am close)
NO it makes no sense to take $6.00 worth of kits and make a pen that could have been made with a $1.79 kit, that would be pure stupidity but it might be considered by some to be an innovation.
For those of us that do experiment we don't know what can be done with a standard pen so we experiment.
For example(sorry the thumbnails don't work for me, I mean they really don't work, I can't pull down a picture when I click the button)
I once asked Fritz how much a Parker "longwood" style pen kit cost.He spent a few minutes looking through the PSI catologue and finally said"Eagle" they don't make one":
I said I know, I just did.
The top one in this picture is a longwood from a slimline the bottom one is a Parker.

<br />
My point is how do we know what can be done usless some of us try to improve upon what the manufacterers limited selection supplies us with?
Most casing pens were made out of 30-06 because they fit a slimline nib.
I chose to make mine out of a Parker(8mm kit) then I made Parker refills out of a standard 30-6 and a slimline nib but used a Parker refill.
Again we won't know unless we try and experiment.I was hoping that is what this forum would be for.

 

[Ron Mc]

I think having a critique forum would be a nice idea. It would be a place where pens can be posted where other members can actually tell us what they think. I don't think the show off your pens area is meant for this. I personally feel that it's a forum where members post pens not to be critiqued but to share them.
I personally say just open it up. I don't like the idea of having every post I make in it looked at before having it show up.[8)]
Honestly the forum could be an area where members have to ask to join in. They would have to understand that they may post a pen that they want critiqued but other opinions may differ from what they expected. No big deal.
I anticipate joining the critique area and really expect to receive comments about a pen that I didn't notice. This is both helpful to all as well as what the forum should be about.[]

 

[PenWorks]

[:0], [], [], [], [8], [B)], [}], [xx(].

enough said.........[]

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Originally posted by PenWorks
<br />[:0], [], [], [], [8], [B)], [}], [xx(].

enough said.........[]

LOL!!!!![]

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />It would be a place where pens can be posted where other members can actually tell us what they think.

The problem Ron, is there are a small few who would rather take pot shots at people.

Take a look at this thread, there are a couple of childish remarks.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
<br />

Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />It would be a place where pens can be posted where other members can actually tell us what they think.

The problem Ron, is there are a small few who would rather take pot shots at people.

Take a look at this thread, there are a couple of childish remarks.

I guess they would only be "pot shots" if they weren't true.
"walking away, whistling a happy tune[]"

 

[Ron Mc]

Ron....Great name by BTW.....please provide the thread.
OK, Let's think about this another way. We are pen turners and artists that treasure the opinions of everyone around us. I hand a pen that I created to a stranger, he will more than likely tell me what I want to hear, "your work is amazing" , "how do you make a pen with such little pieces of wood?" Why will they say this? Because they don't want to hurt our feelings. That is the wonderful thing about human nature. We are not programmed to be critical at all.
YET...The critical comments will help everyone create what I like to call the perfect pen.
When we get right down to it it's not my choice or yours, I just hope that Jeff makes the decision that will assist us in creating the perfect pen![]

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by jeff
<br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.

So "critiques" in that forum would be what we intended in the first place. Constructive criticism of methods and outcomes of experiments. What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens. It'd have to be some partly finished thing, or an oddball blank or casting, or some other experimental prototype. The requestor would have to describe it, provide good photos, and ask for feedback on specific aspects of the experiment. Lacking any of that, the post would be rejected. Followups would not be moderated (they post without moderator review), but a moderator would watch the discussion and keep things civil.

Any thoughts on that?

To start off I don’t think this type of forum can work.

Here’s my take on some rules that may help this work.

1. No flaming, taking of pot shots, or hijacking of threads. Everyone will remain polite at all times.

• a. First offense, polite reminder and comment removed.
• b. Second offense, comment removed and one day suspension.<br />
• c. Third offense, comment removed and one week suspension.<br />
• d. Fourth offense, comment removed andone month suspension.<br />

2. Returning to a thread and repeating the offense at any given time will result in a one month suspension.

3. This forum is about sharing. Sharing requires both give and take. When asked, “How did you did that?â€, be prepared to answer. If you don’t want to share, that’s okay, just use “Show Off Your Pen†forum. Offenses will be handled the same way as in rule #1.

• a. First offense, polite reminder<br />
• b. Second offense, one day suspension.<br />
• c. Third offense, one week suspension.<br />
• d. Fourth offense, one month suspension.<br />
• The thread/comment may be removed at any time.<br />

4. Clear pictures are a must. It’s hard enough to give honest feed back if we can’t see what you are doing.

 

[cozee]

Originally posted by Skye
<br />

Originally posted by cozee
<br />

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
<br />After reading all the pros and cons, I'm going to change my vote.


I say No to the critique forum.

I agree and do the same. I say no. This thread is a good example of why.[]

That's like my wife and I not agreeing on what car to buy, so we just walk everwhere instead.

If people are getting chips on their shoulders in this thread, is isnt an example of why such forums shouldent exist, it's an example of why such people shouldent post pens there.

No, it is not the same. First, the process of a husband and wife deciding on what car to buy is one between two people and those two only. And if you or your wife get a chip on your shoulder which causes to to remain undecided on a car thus end up walking everywhere, the problem goes beyond agreement of a car. No, the problem is that here, you are dealing with a person's ego, not an agreement. And those egos are the one who's work is being critiqued and the one giving the critique. And then you have those who think an unfair judgment of another's work was given and off to the races we go. A forum of such would need to be heavily moderated.

I had never participated or even seen the first forum for this but understand that it ended up being shut down due to, uh, disagreements. I see discussion here but also see the formulations of disagreements beginning. So, if even in a thread discussing the re-creation of a said forum, with history repeating itself within the discussion, why should one not expect history to repeat itself within said forum once re-created?

I have had my airbrush work critiqued by panels and by the public, especially when doing t-shirst and have no choice but to work out in the open for all to see and voice an opinion. I've gotten some pretty tough skin from that and from it I solidily believe it doesn't matter one iota what any one here has to say about my pens if my purpose for them is to market them. The almighty dollar will dictate what I need to do. If I were to market my pens in an area where someone else is already marketing thier pens, then what they have to say beocmes an asset to the marketing of my pens. Now if someone is simply wanting thier ego inflated, well, then simply post them on one of the pen boards and many ooohs and aaahs are easily generated. I myself will compliment a pen I like simply because I like it. If I don't, I won't.

I have also sat on panels which critqued airbrush artwork on a few occasions. I have to agree that if had I had to critique artwork by simply looking at pictures that a fair assessment of the artwork could not have been given. Only when one can actually see the original, to see the strokes and fluid movements of the airbrush, to see the application of technics, to see the artwork as a whole, one is only seeing what is wanted to be seen. And with pens it would be the same. Photography can hide poor craftsmanship/artwork. And, a quality pen may be in the picture but if the turner isn't as gifted in photography, well, another pitfall to not receiving a fair judging. With viewing photos of what is to be critiqued, about the best anyone can offer is an opinion, not an assessment or judgment. And out of this comes the disagreements and potential for arguments, resentments, and bruised egos.

My opinion was asked of by the initial post which started this thread. I have given it and stand by it. By saying that I do not feel such a forum is necessary, this is not voting, just simply keeping my part of the discussion to a minimum. Easy enough! Hope those who want this forum can do the same!!!!![]

(edited for spelling and grammer, Greg)

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by cozee
<br />No, it is not the same. First, the process of a husband and wife deciding on what car to buy is one between two people and those two only. And if you or your wife get a chip on your shoulder which causes to to remain undecided on a car thus end up walking everywhere, the problem goes beyond agreement of a car. No, the problem is that here, you are dealing with a person's ego, not an agreement. And those egos are the one who's work is being critiqued or the one giving the critique. And then you have those who think an unfair judgment of another's work was given and off to the races we go. A forum of such would need to be heavily moderated.

I had never participated or even seen the first forum for this but understand that it ended up being shut down due to, uh, disagreements. I see discussion here but also see the formulations of disagreements forming. So, if even in a thread discussing the recreation of a said forum, with history repeating itself within the discussion, why shopuld one not expect history to repeat itself within said forum once recreated?

I have had my airbrush work critiqued by panels and by the public, especially when doing t-shirst and have no choice but to work out in the open for all to see and voice an opinion. I've gotten some pretty tough skin from that and from it solidily believe it doesn't matter one iota what any one here has to say about my pens if my purpose for them is to market them. The almighty dollar will dictate what I need to do. If I were to market my pens in an area where someone else is already marketing thier pens, then what they have to say beocmes an asset to the marketing of my pens. Now if someone is simply wanting thier ego inflated, well, then simply post them on one of the pen boards and many ooohs and aaahs are easily generated. I myself will compliment a pen I like simply because I like it. If I don't, I won't.

I have also sat on panels which critqued airbrush artwork on a few occasions. I have to agree that if had I had to critique artwork by simply looking at pictures that a fair assessment of the artwork could not have been given. Only when one can actually see the original, to see the strokes and fluid movements of the airbrush, to see the application of technics, to see the artwork as a whole, one is only seeing what is wanted to bee seen. And with pens it would be the same. Photography can hide poor craftsmanship/artwork. And, a quality pen may be in the picture but if the turner is as gifted in photography, well, another pitfall to not receiving a fair judging. With viewing photos of what is to be critiqued, about the best anyone can offer is an opinion, not an assessment or judgment. And out of this comes the disagreements and potential for arguments, resentments, and bruised egos.

My opinion was asked of by the initial post which started this thread. I have given it and stand by it. By saying that I do not feel such a forum is necessary is not voting, just simply keeping my part of the discussion to a minimum. Easy enough! Hope those who want this forum can do the same!!!!![]

Wow!

Excellent response and I must say that I'm impressed and in agreement.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Nice Post Greg

 

[Dario]

My take.

Critique forum is for those who need help to improve their craft.

Though I believe that most of us show the best side of our pen on SOYP as much as possible, I don't think it will be the same if the person who posts a pen for critique is honestly out to improve his craft/art. I critiquing a pen on a picture is not enough but some crafters will still benefit from it. Most likely the group who need it most are beginners anyway. If it helps them then the new forum will be worth the heartache.

I am not saying that seasoned turners will not benefit from it. New techniques, products, kits, blanks, styles, glue ups, materials, etc. can and will also be submitted but hopefully they will know what to concentrate and ask about.

I am for less forums but I still vote yes to this one.

 

[TellicoTurning]

I am realtively new to this formum and did not see the original "critique" forum and cannot comment on that, but the reason I joined the forum was to learn from other turners, more experienced or more skilled than me.. as pointed out earlier, I generally know what is wrong with my pens as far as fit, finish, etc goes, and I always have my wife to handle and comment on these items... she loves me, but will always point out something that is less than perfect...

I know that what kit I make, what medium, wood, bone, acryllic, etc I choose is generally my choice depending on what I think will sell... right or wrong.

If the forum can be kept to a "I need some help on this" or "I'm trying something new and having some problems as to whether it will work" or something along these lines.. or "I'm not happy with this, but don't know what excactly is wrong" then the critique might work... Personalities cannot enter into the forum... if we ask for help, we must be ready for the answers..

I don't know anyone of this formum personally yet, but I see their work and read all the posts and am beginning to form opinions of the skill levels. I enjoy the discussions on the threads that are related to the technical aspects of the craft.

Based on this, I do not think we need a new forum when we can do all this in the existing forums..

 

[ctEaglesc]

I'm not sure when to discussion got back to the criques forum,but on page 4 of this thread Jeff posted this:

Originally posted by jeff
<br />I believe that a critique of a reasonably well-made pen via a photograph is pointless. The technical differences between reasonably well-made and great are extremely hard to see in a photograph, and anything else - shape, grain, shine, etc. is just opinion. Honestly, there aren't that many different ways to execute a standard pen kit on a hunk of wood or plastic.

Before the critiques discussion came up again, what I was considering was a forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where we could post our experiments, accidental successes, total flops, work in progress, prototypes, etc. I had not considered that to be a place where we would try to evaluate standard pens for fit and finish.
So "critiques" in that forum would be what we intended in the first place. Constructive criticism of methods and outcomes of experiments. What might work is that we moderate (a moderator has to read and approve the post before it shows up) the first post of a topic. It has to meet some criteria - we'd disallow standard finished pens. It'd have to be some partly finished thing, or an oddball blank or casting, or some other experimental prototype. The requestor would have to describe it, provide good photos, and ask for feedback on specific aspects of the experiment. Lacking any of that, the post would be rejected. Followups would not be moderated (they post without moderator review), but a moderator would watch the discussion and keep things civil.

Any thoughts on that?

I will reiterate this has turned into a vote as opposed to a discussion.
Anyone have any thoughts on the forum Jeff suggested in this post?
The "Penturners Laboratory"?(I think if someone does serious experimenting they would be a pen CRAFTER since so much of experimental work goes far beyond the use of a lathe)

 

[Skye]

You know, I picked up one of Bruce's pens at Bubbasville. It was a corncob pen, I looked at it, noticed there was some scalloped areas at the upper and lower half's joint. I told him I saw it, told him how he could avoid it.

Considering the posts here, I probably should have been hit in the jaw. Believe it or not, he didn’t. <b>That</b>'s pretty much what the critiques forum in a nutshell.

If you want a critique, post in that forum.

If you want a pat on the back, post in the SOYP forum.

I don’t see what's so complicated about it.

 

[cozee]

I don’t see what's so complicated about it.

Bruce is a proven skilled artist. Most who are at his level have received so much in the way of critiques and critisms, they know the difference. You did well. You pointed out a flaw and offered up a way to correct it. And apparently not in a self-serving manner. That is a true critique. Most however offer up nothing more than a critism and if they do offer a way of correction, it is done in such a way that thier way is the only way. Many, many times, the difference between a critique and a critism is how it is offered. And then much also relies upon the character of the one receiving the critique. You had it easy.

I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past.

No voting, just discussing!![8D]

 

[ctEaglesc]

"I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past."



The IAP board was disbanded alsmost 2 years ago.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />"I still don't think we need such a forum but if done, I think there needs to be a panel selected by a majority vote of IAP board members to do the critiques. Leaving the critiquing open to anyone and everyone is leaving the door open to the past."



The IAP board was disbanded alsmost 2 years ago.

Wouldn't that be a similar format to the PMG?[:0]