Let's discuss.
Bring Back the Critiques Forum?
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Dario
Member
I'm for it.
It does need to be moderated a bit tougher I think. As you said, people need to know the distinction between critiquing the pen/product vs the maker. As well as people agreeing to disagree in a civil way.
It does need to be moderated a bit tougher I think. As you said, people need to know the distinction between critiquing the pen/product vs the maker. As well as people agreeing to disagree in a civil way.
vick
Member
I liked the critique forum. With that being said it kind of turned into another show of your pen forum where you got a lot of "Nothing to critique it looks great" comments.
Randy_
Member
"Gee, that's great" comments are a total waste of everyone's time. Anyone who's been turning pens for more than a week knows full well that taste varies a lot and even the worlds ugliest pen will find a few folks who will love it.(Ron's pickle pen excepted[
]) No doubt a few people will get their feelings hurt on a true critique forum; but that is the chance they take. If someone doesn't want to hear the "BAD" with the good, they need to avoid the forum and they need to understand that just because a few people don't like their pen, it doesn't mean that it is a bad pen.....seems pretty simple to me?? My vote is for resurrection the critique forum, ASAP!!
]) No doubt a few people will get their feelings hurt on a true critique forum; but that is the chance they take. If someone doesn't want to hear the "BAD" with the good, they need to avoid the forum and they need to understand that just because a few people don't like their pen, it doesn't mean that it is a bad pen.....seems pretty simple to me?? My vote is for resurrection the critique forum, ASAP!!
gerryr
Member
I think it was "locked" by the time I found the IAP, but I did go back and read a lot of it before it got "hidden." I like the idea, but I also understand the difficulties of doing a critique when all you have is generally one photo. I think one overall photo and a couple of extreme closeups would be better. In a perfect world, you would be able to touch and feel the real thing.
That said, I would like to see it resurrected. But, whoever moderates it, needs to come down heavily on people who start attacking someone. It's one thing to offer a different point of view, but another entirely to say or imply that the owner of that view is something less than human. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about a pen or anything else, but nobody has the right to use their opinion as a club against others.
That said, I would like to see it resurrected. But, whoever moderates it, needs to come down heavily on people who start attacking someone. It's one thing to offer a different point of view, but another entirely to say or imply that the owner of that view is something less than human. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about a pen or anything else, but nobody has the right to use their opinion as a club against others.
Penmonkey
Member
Many times it's hard to Critique If you can't see the pen well. It would be almost like we are critiquing the pictures. I say don't bring it back.
JimGo
Member
As I said in the other thread, I liked it. I had pens that I KNEW what was wrong with them, and they went into SOYP; the stuff that I thought was some of my better work went into Critiques. Since Critiques was closed, it seems to me that people haven't been as willing to offer constructive feedback about the pens.
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
If the critiques forum is brought back, as mentioned above some rules/guidelines are needed.
My thoughts are:
1. Avoid negative buzz words such as lousy, poor, loser, and the like.
2. To critique, you should have an album with your work displayed. Personally, I believe that you should show your credentials, ie your work, before you critique others. Every one can buy a throw away camera and have Wal-mart make you a disc with the pictures on it. If you can't display your own work, I question your right to comment on those who do.
3. As mentioned, tighter moderation to lock a thread if the discussion becomes personal.
4. Temporary suspensions from the forum for those who choose to participate in personal attacks.
My thoughts are:
1. Avoid negative buzz words such as lousy, poor, loser, and the like.
2. To critique, you should have an album with your work displayed. Personally, I believe that you should show your credentials, ie your work, before you critique others. Every one can buy a throw away camera and have Wal-mart make you a disc with the pictures on it. If you can't display your own work, I question your right to comment on those who do.
3. As mentioned, tighter moderation to lock a thread if the discussion becomes personal.
4. Temporary suspensions from the forum for those who choose to participate in personal attacks.
Blind_Squirrel
Member
I for one would welcome honest critques. When I show my wife or friends a pen all they can say is "it's beautiful!" I am looking to better my pen making; who better to tell you the good/bad than your peer group?
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I stand squarely in the middle of the road:
Critique will be VERY difficult, based on a picture
There's a difference between TAKING offense and MEANING to be offensive-it is a FINE line that is REAL HARD to TYPE!!! So, I believe, if the forum is open, let it be an open forum-short of foul language, keep a "you asked for it, you got it!" attitude. Then, if a comment is misinterpreted the burden of clarifying is put on the person who made the comment, not some poor moderator.
I think, in a period of time, it will become redundant of SOYP.
Also, I, personally, won't be posting there. I KNOW what's wrong with most of my pens (if there is something wrong), and YOU can't see it on a picture.[][][]
Heck, Dawn can't see it when she is holding it, and she has held and critiqued more pens than most people will make in a year!!!!!
Critique will be VERY difficult, based on a picture
There's a difference between TAKING offense and MEANING to be offensive-it is a FINE line that is REAL HARD to TYPE!!! So, I believe, if the forum is open, let it be an open forum-short of foul language, keep a "you asked for it, you got it!" attitude. Then, if a comment is misinterpreted the burden of clarifying is put on the person who made the comment, not some poor moderator.
I think, in a period of time, it will become redundant of SOYP.
Also, I, personally, won't be posting there. I KNOW what's wrong with most of my pens (if there is something wrong), and YOU can't see it on a picture.[
][][]Heck, Dawn can't see it when she is holding it, and she has held and critiqued more pens than most people will make in a year!!!!!
mick
Member
I'd like to see the critique forum brought back ....if the above posts could be observed. By the critic...as well as the one being critiqued
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Cav,
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. (And, I hope you know I DO respect your opinion)
Start with 4: My version of being personally attacked involves sticks, stones and other weapons. If you tell me my mother wears combat boots, I may refer you to her credentials in participating in WWII dancing contests with our men in arms!!!
Seriously, we need to have a thick skin. You are gifted with a command of the language, but not all "posters" are as succinct. So, if LOUSY is the best word I can find - it accurately represents my opinion of the fit of your centerband. (Certainly YOU would have chosen to point out that it "appears to be out of alignment by twenty or thirty thousandths!!!")
Album pictures should have no bearing on this. If I post a "flame" of your pen, it is either factually correct or incorrect. If you go to my album and see I have never MADE a pen (as one member once suggested), this does NOT make me incapable of noting your aforementioned several thousandths GAP. And, should you note on one of my masterpieces that the nib is "out of round", I merely need to go to the pen to see if you are correct.
Perhaps I am WAY off base, but I still don't believe a great critique can be generated by a picture.
Hope you're not offended and I certainly don't mean any affront to the footwear you and/or your family may choose!!![
][][]Gary Max
Member
Standing on the far right side of the road.
The only Critique I care about is the person who is reaching for money.
I have no bad feelings about the forum being opened it's just not my cup of tea.
The only Critique I care about is the person who is reaching for money.
I have no bad feelings about the forum being opened it's just not my cup of tea.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Scott,
If there is a Woodcraft in your neighborhood, try there. Or, find the AAW (American Assn of Woodturners) in your area. While they seem to be "bowl-oriented", there are a lot of turners there who can HOLD your pen, FEEL the joints and, if you wish, give you accurate suggestions.
Ron in Drums PA
Member
I liked the critique forum.
Tight moderation would be needed, censorship too!
Tight moderation would be needed, censorship too!
Rifleman1776
Member
It will work well for about an hour then go downhill to name calling. The idea is fine but history has shown it is a formula for disaster. OTOH, it might rid the forum of some flotsam. Change William's #4 to permanent suspension. Jeff, I think you are asking for headaches and ulcers if you bring it back.
cozee
Member
I could see it being quite useful if it was a true critique, and not something which is more like non-constructive criticism. Some may become wearied in hearing negative critiques and not realize they come from those who prefer a different style, color, or kit. Also, personally, I would only accept critiques from someone who has shown to be better at the craft than I. In this, perhaps a panel of those who have proven themselves to be leaders in the craft/art of penturning could be elected by board members. These people would also need to be personable as there are those who turen out some fantastically skilled work but fall short in the human relations department. Those not on the panel would not be allowed to offer a critique except by pm or email. This would also help to reduce the possiblity of the forum getting out of hand.
But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what someone has to say about a pen but what someone is willing to pay for it!!!
But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what someone has to say about a pen but what someone is willing to pay for it!!!
melogic
Member
How about we bring it back on a trial basis to see how it is going to work? Also, maybe have the photo taking as part of the critiques as well. This way we become not only better pen turners, but better at taking pictures of our great works of art. Guidelines will have to be set and EVERYONE that participates will have to abide by them or suffer the consequences. If you do not want to hear the bad with the good, then do not post in that forum! Strict moderation is a MUST. With that being said, I would volunteer to be a moderator of that forum.
Rifleman1776
Member
Here we go. Opinions can generate passion. What Cozee said, "But, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what someone has to say about a pen but what someone is willing to pay for it!!!" Is an opening to a never ending debate that wouldn't get past two posts before the [explitive deleted] starts flying.
Add heart attack to the headaches and ulcers for Jeff it he resumes this.
I belong to a writer's critique group and know even the most expert and honest constructive criticizm can hurt. The regulars understand that and handle it. Often, though we see people come once and when we don't bury them in rose petals, that never return. All some folks are looking for is validation. You won't get that with critiques.
Add heart attack to the headaches and ulcers for Jeff it he resumes this.
I belong to a writer's critique group and know even the most expert and honest constructive criticizm can hurt. The regulars understand that and handle it. Often, though we see people come once and when we don't bury them in rose petals, that never return. All some folks are looking for is validation. You won't get that with critiques.
mrcook4570
Member
I would like to see it. However, the poster should be aware that pens can be judged objectively in only a few ways. Most critiques, I believe, would be subjective and naturally influenced by any biases (towards shape, color, etc) that the person giving the critique may have. Critiques, offered constructively, can certainly help one improve their product.
Inevitably though, I am sure there will be misunderstandings as the typed word is not accompanied by voice inflections or body language.
Inevitably though, I am sure there will be misunderstandings as the typed word is not accompanied by voice inflections or body language.
Blind_Squirrel
Member
Thanks for the great idea! I just joined the Tidewater turners association during their last meeting. I will have to start bringing my work and asking for honest opinions. [
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Blind_Squirrel
Member
I disagree with you... you doo-doo head! [:0] [
] []I thought it then and I think it now. This is a really stupid idea. We have a forum dedicated to "show off" pens. If you want warm air blown up your dress. post your photo with a "NPGJ Comments Only" caption (Nice pen, good job.) If you want the photography critiqued, take your post to that forum. If you want the opinion of anyone who cares to offer one, ask for a critique. Of course, expect to get a lot of BS comments about the chip under the finial or the dust on the barrel. To want a new forum moderated differently from the rest of the site is absurd. To want it censored (except from Adult Content) is ludicrous.
BTW, for those of you who are somewhat new to the forum, you will soon realize whose opinions you value. You will then avail yourself of direct input through correspondence. The ensuing dialogs will be worth nmore to you than generic posts and critiques by faceless, nameless individuals who fear rebuke to the point that they hide behind the anonymity that the internet and this forum provide.
BTW, for those of you who are somewhat new to the forum, you will soon realize whose opinions you value. You will then avail yourself of direct input through correspondence. The ensuing dialogs will be worth nmore to you than generic posts and critiques by faceless, nameless individuals who fear rebuke to the point that they hide behind the anonymity that the internet and this forum provide.
M
Mudder
Guest
I would vote no.
From what I have seen a photograph can be deceiving. It can give you the illusion of things that are not there and it can make flaws less noticeable.
I think a critique forum is one of those things that are great in theory buy there is no practical way to make it work.
From what I have seen a photograph can be deceiving. It can give you the illusion of things that are not there and it can make flaws less noticeable.
I think a critique forum is one of those things that are great in theory buy there is no practical way to make it work.
Skye
Member
Bring it back and let me mod it. [}]
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Ron in Drums PA
Member
[
] You have a way with words Lou.[]chitswood
Member
I'd like to see a critique's forum, often I have some advice about the pen in question, but I don't bother posting because I doubt my advice will be seen.
I'll help edit your next book, Ron. []
]
Randy_
Member
Precisely the point, Frank. Those folks can post in the SOYP forum and avoid the critique forum!!
alamocdc
Member
I have no use for it. I get sufficient constructive comments when I open the door for them from a number of the other forums, like Lou said. I think we're just asking for trouble here because someone's thong will get knotted up about something. Why give history a chance to repeat itself?[?]
Randy_
Member
I heartily agree with the first point; but as long as everyone understands that there are certain limitations to critiquing pens based solely on a photo or two, I believe there are still positive benefits to be had from an honest exchange of ideas and opinions. I expect newer turners will probably benefit more from such a forum than the more experienced guys. Their problems(newbies) are likely to be more obvious and more easily correctable: whereas guys who have been around for a while will be looking for us to pick at nits that don't even show up in a photo.
As to the second point, the practical way to make it work is for IAP members to "make" it work.....and either we will or we won't!!!
clewless
Member
You are right on point, Lou.
rtjw
Member
You know there seems to be an opinion missing from this topic. I just cant put my finger on who might have an opinion.
Skye
Member
The phrase "choose your battles" comes to mind.
Just my guess.
Just my guess.
DocStram
Member
This is all very interesting reading. After reading all of these different opinions I've reached the conclusion that there is only one thing that we can all agree upon .... we share a passion for penturning.
After reflecting on the idea, I would vote no to the Critique forum for a couple of reasons:
1st The Show Off Your Pens Forum has turned into a sort of "critique" forum.
2nd When I'm ready to have one of my pens critiqued, I'll send the photo and solicit input from whomever I feel could give me the most valuable input.
3rd To "know" a pen .... is to use my tactile and kinesthetic input. I have to hold the pen in my hand and feel it. At Bubbasville SE, Skye and I spent about 30 minutes picking up and holding Chris Higdon's pens. Admiring his work at his website was one thing, touching them and getting the "Gestalt" was another.
The Critique Forum just isn't worth the disharmony it would create.
After reflecting on the idea, I would vote no to the Critique forum for a couple of reasons:
1st The Show Off Your Pens Forum has turned into a sort of "critique" forum.
2nd When I'm ready to have one of my pens critiqued, I'll send the photo and solicit input from whomever I feel could give me the most valuable input.
3rd To "know" a pen .... is to use my tactile and kinesthetic input. I have to hold the pen in my hand and feel it. At Bubbasville SE, Skye and I spent about 30 minutes picking up and holding Chris Higdon's pens. Admiring his work at his website was one thing, touching them and getting the "Gestalt" was another.
The Critique Forum just isn't worth the disharmony it would create.
Skye
Member
Kinesthetic input? Were you bitten by a radioactive spider? [:0]
I agree with what you're saying, but a new turner has no trusted people to show their pen to in order to get real input on their pens. Throwing them a snausage every time they turn a pen with problems wont help them.
I agree with what you're saying, but a new turner has no trusted people to show their pen to in order to get real input on their pens. Throwing them a snausage every time they turn a pen with problems wont help them.
JimGo
Member
I find that the SOYP forum doesn't generate critiques, even when I ask for them. I know, I know...it must be because I make perfect pens every time, so there's nothing to critique.
The thing I like about the idea of a Critiques forum is that it is separate and distinct from SOYP, and when I post/posted there, I'm sending a clear signal that hey, if you see something that you think is a nit and would otherwise just ignore it in SOYP, PLEASE point it out; I may very well have missed it. That's what I'm asking for when I post to SOYP and ask for critiques, but I don't get that kind of feedback. I agree with Lou that SOYP COULD be used as both a "look at my latest" and a critiques forum, but I don't think people are comfortable giving their honest feedback because they are afraid of offending.
I also respectfully disagree with Lou. He knows that I value his input, especially on some of my attempts at new techniques and the like. But I know Lou and he knows me, and when we meet in person, because of that familiarity he may choose to hold back on commenting on something because he sees the pride with which I present it. Same goes for Draken, MDWine, and the rest of the NOVA contingent. The advantage to me not knowing Anthony, Bruce Boone, Don Ward, Jeff, Frank, Skye, Eagle, Fangar, or any of a number of others here on a truly personal level is that when I post something, I hope that level of "anonymity" makes them more comfortable providing honest critiques.
Of course, I do agree with Lou that there are some people whose opinions I value over others, but I know enough to either ignore outright or at least pay little attention to the comments of those others. I think that, if anyone posting to a critiques forum understands that what's being offered is constructive criticism and not a trashing of the work simply to trash it, then they're going into it with their eyes wide open. If they want the NPGJ type responses, post to SOYP and don't ask for critiques. But if you want honest opinions, post to the Critiques forum.
The thing I like about the idea of a Critiques forum is that it is separate and distinct from SOYP, and when I post/posted there, I'm sending a clear signal that hey, if you see something that you think is a nit and would otherwise just ignore it in SOYP, PLEASE point it out; I may very well have missed it. That's what I'm asking for when I post to SOYP and ask for critiques, but I don't get that kind of feedback. I agree with Lou that SOYP COULD be used as both a "look at my latest" and a critiques forum, but I don't think people are comfortable giving their honest feedback because they are afraid of offending.
I also respectfully disagree with Lou. He knows that I value his input, especially on some of my attempts at new techniques and the like. But I know Lou and he knows me, and when we meet in person, because of that familiarity he may choose to hold back on commenting on something because he sees the pride with which I present it. Same goes for Draken, MDWine, and the rest of the NOVA contingent. The advantage to me not knowing Anthony, Bruce Boone, Don Ward, Jeff, Frank, Skye, Eagle, Fangar, or any of a number of others here on a truly personal level is that when I post something, I hope that level of "anonymity" makes them more comfortable providing honest critiques.
Of course, I do agree with Lou that there are some people whose opinions I value over others, but I know enough to either ignore outright or at least pay little attention to the comments of those others. I think that, if anyone posting to a critiques forum understands that what's being offered is constructive criticism and not a trashing of the work simply to trash it, then they're going into it with their eyes wide open. If they want the NPGJ type responses, post to SOYP and don't ask for critiques. But if you want honest opinions, post to the Critiques forum.
<b>From the first page of SOYP</b>
There sure seems to be some critiquing going on without having to set up yet another forum...even some critiquing aimed at newbies.
Seriously, Skye, what am I missing?
There sure seems to be some critiquing going on without having to set up yet another forum...even some critiquing aimed at newbies.
Seriously, Skye, what am I missing?
JimGo
Member
OK, but that's six critiques out of a total of how many comments?
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Out of zero that asked. Of course, I really don't care. I didn't participate as either a solicitor or as a contributor on the first go 'round and I won't change that pattern.
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