Brief explanation to make a PC Tube

[keithkarl2007]

How the heck do you keep the flowers uniform through the cane, or even shape them like that you've more patience than i have :biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Toni]

They arent perfect, clay is soft and moves, but the thinner the slices the less distortion there will be. it takes time and practice, I have been working with pc since 1997. send me a ticket to Ireland and I will give you a private lesson!!!

 

[KDM]

REmember I DO NOT OWN A LATHE and have never turned anything except a hotdog

...and I am an aircraft systems engineer with ZERO artistic talent and absolutely no pasta machine!!

the clay has to be rolled out with a rolling pin or a pasta machine numerous times to "conditiion" the clay.

Yes. I did that this time. Rolled it up into snakes, folded it, rolled it. All nice and squidgy. No cracks.

I have never massaeged clay

I was cautious with the use of that word.

you know there isnt a nice way to explain all this to a guy without laughing!!!

Ergo, my caution.

As for temperature I have a thermometer in my oven to keep a close eye on the temperature as it fluctuates.. Try again!!!!!!!!!!

I have one in the oven as we speak. (Oh, boy. Now who's laughing?)

 

[Toni]

I am very excited to see if you were able to succeed...gulp..... Does it help that I cant draw for beans??

 

[KDM]

OKay, loads of massaging and folding and rolling the snake beforehand. It was so well conditioned that it was alsmost ... sticky. Also, because it was quite hard beforehand, I rubbed in some Vaseline (advice from poymerclaycentral), which stopped it cracking when folded. In the oven for 45 mins at slightly lower temp of 120C.

Damned tube is still crumbly. To give you an idea, the tube wall is 3mm thick and I can crush it with very little effort. I could make a pen out of it, but I fear that it would shatter if it got dropped!! This is very annoying. It looks like such a versatile material.

(And I'm starting to see why you giggle so much when talking about the subject.)

 

[Toni]

OK, NOW I KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You arent covering a brass tube. You need to put that sheet onto a brass tube, it says it in the tutorial.

What you are doing is making a tube with polymer clay on the mandral?? (tell me I am right, because that will show I am learning) If you wanted to do that you will need to use Kato clay. I have never used vaseline to condition the clay, zips mouth shut.

Try again!! hehehehe

 

[KDM]

I didn't set out to follow the instructions. I just wanted a block of hardened clay that I could carve up onthe lathe. I'm also not following "traditional" pen making instructions. I made my own tools, so I have two sizes of mandrel - one for turning without tubes and one for turning with tubes.

I did form the tube directly onto the mandrel. The engineer in me leads me to believe this might make a difference to the direct heat applied to the tube.

What difference with Kato clay make? What exactly is going on here?

Vaseline is your friend if your clay is a bit old.

 

[capcrnch]

Toni, when you bake them, how do you set them in the oven?
Are they laying flat on their sides or do you "prop" them up somehow?

Thanks!

 

[jeffnreno]

Another Medium To Try

Thank you for the great tutorial.
This site is such an incredible source information.

 

[Toni]

Rich~stand the tube upright on a flat tile.(updated the tutorial with this information, thank you)

Jeff~thank you so much!

KDM~I did not realize that was what you were doing, sorry for the confusion. As for turning on a lathe, as I said in the begining I have never turned pc on a lathe, my only suggestion is the clay is not strong enough. All clays have there own characteristics, ie..flexible, strength and weeknesses. Kato clay is known for it strength and higher baking temperatures. From what I remember you can not buy it in the crafts stores(that was 3 years ago) you had to buy it online. I do appologize for not being able to help.

 

[KDM]

As for turning on a lathe, as I said in the begining I have never turned pc on a lathe, my only suggestion is the clay is not strong enough.

Yeah, but this stuff has never made it as far as the lathe. It's crumbling in my hands. I'm quite sure I could folow your instructions and my clay would still crumble! I reckon it must be just too old. (And my oven is crap.)

 

[CaptG]

I didn't set out to follow the instructions. I just wanted a block of hardened clay that I could carve up onthe lathe. I'm also not following "traditional" pen making instructions. I made my own tools, so I have two sizes of mandrel - one for turning without tubes and one for turning with tubes.

I did form the tube directly onto the mandrel. The engineer in me leads me to believe this might make a difference to the direct heat applied to the tube.

What difference with Kato clay make? What exactly is going on here?

Vaseline is your friend if your clay is a bit old.

Hi Ken, If I am reading Toni's tutorial right, there is no lathe work involved in her process. Being a tool and die maker I don't know if clay could turn without chipping out, sanded to shape yes, but I doubt turned. Turning clay is an interesting thought tho, Seeing how Toni does not own a lathe and can not give info on this and you are obviously looking to turn clay, (your thinking outside the box here is how great new processes get started) I hope you keep us up to date and give us a tutorial when (not if) you figure it out. I will be waiting to see the results.

 

[daveeisler]

Toni, things here in NJ/NY are improving, and rental homes have stabilized, as well as homes for sale, they are still very low, but taxes, well that still is high, but as you must know, living in NJ, and working in NY, with your talent, you could easily have a studio in the city, where you could sell your stuff and hold classes too. So when your ready, I will send some home buying info, no , I am not a realtor. just helping friends.

 

[creativewriting]

Yeah, but this stuff has never made it as far as the lathe. It's crumbling in my hands. I'm quite sure I could folow your instructions and my clay would still crumble! I reckon it must be just too old. (And my oven is crap.)

I to have never used vaseline to condition clay. There is a fine line when you are adding any additional substance to clay. I have used mineral oil in small (very small) doses, but that is it.

Clay, on its own, will not hold up to turning or threading. If you just want to turn a chunk then roll it into a sausage shape (technical lingo), cure it, drill, and glue in the tube. Doing this you should have no problem. The clay needs the support of the brass tube. I have torn several of my pens apart for testing reasons and your clay should not crumble. From my experience it is very flexible and doesn't tear easily. The tubes I have dismantled I have been able to fold and bend the clay portion with out any sign of wear.

Over the past couple of years they have been reformulating polymer clay to decrease or remove the phthalates (platicizers used originally). There were a few brands that had very bad luck in the first attempts to do so. I am not sure if Fimo was one of those or not. I usually work with Premo or Studio.

If you need some more information on the different charactoristics of clay try this site or this site. Garie is the mad scientist of polymer. These links will provide everything you need to know about the durability of Polymer.

 

[glycerine]

I have a question. Once you make a cane, how do you store it to keep it from drying out until you use it all up?

 

[KDM]

... I don't know if clay could turn without chipping out, sanded to shape yes, but I doubt turned. Turning clay is an interesting thought tho, Seeing how Toni does not own a lathe and can not give info on this and you are obviously looking to turn clay, (your thinking outside the box here is how great new processes get started) I hope you keep us up to date and give us a tutorial when (not if) you figure it out. I will be waiting to see the results.

Course I'll keep everyone posted. For info, I took a pice of my broken experiment and put it on a mandrel (I made a 7mm mandrel for turning without tubes) and it turns up a treat! It's quite a smooth finish (I used a metal cutting bit rather than a wood tool) but not shiny. However, even after several passes with graded sandpaper, it was too soft to take a shine. I guess I'll be laquering it!!

 

[KDM]

Clay, on its own, will not hold up to turning or threading.

I used an indexable DCMT metal cutting bit. Worked OKay.

If you just want to turn a chunk then roll it into a sausage shape (technical lingo), cure it, drill, and glue in the tube. Doing this you should have no problem.

You know, I'm gonna give that a go - The reason I formed it on the mandrel was to reduce waste, but I think I'll try drilling it next time.

The clay needs the support of the brass tube.

Ah. That's something I didn't consider. CA gluing the tube into it will make it a lot stronger already. Maybe I'll sacrifice a couple of tubes and see what happens.

 

[OC1]

This is my first post, first let me tell you Toni, your pens and designs are just absolutely amazing and jawdropping. I normally prefer abstract textures, but when I see a great craft I can't help myself.

Anyway, I jumped here because I always turn Polymer Clay. It turns like butter and there is far less mess than turning casting resins or even wood. I use normal woodturning gouges so nothing special. one has to be a bit more careful because it really go fast. The result is pretty smooth already, then just work with sanding paper and wool the shine. I use woodworking wax to get base shine then use auto polishing compound for final shine. All on lathe.
If the clay crumbles then you simply didn't bake it long enough. When it is baked properly it turns beautifully.
I turn PC because I am not exactly good in making a good nice smooth barrel without turning.

Here are few my PC pens from yesterday - I use pen making just as a fill-up between my woodworking projects (accoustic guitars). Normally I use some scrap woods etc, but clay is wonderful thing ...me and my kids love it. I was trying to do some faux stones on few of them on others I was just monkeying around. The left one looks like something between marble and sausage...(I used shavings from previous pen and mixed it with clay) the right one looks surprisingly like quartz even when held in hand...
I just mostly use slimline kits I got from ebay...

 

[Toni]

Oscar~how excellent!! Glad you posted as well as showed your pens. I agree it looks like quartz!! Turquiose is nice looking as well!! We both have completely different styles!!! When/If I ever get a lathe you know I am going to drive you NUTS!!

 

[dgscott]

Toni:

When I first saw your work, my immediate reaction was "WOW! I wanna do that!" But to be honest, I think I would have the same reaction standing underneath the Sistine Chapel's ceiling. Just because I want to do that doesn't mean I could. So, I'm resigned to admire what you do in the same way I'd admire a painting by Monet or a sculpture by Rodin. Absolutely astonishing work. Thanks for the tutorial, but I think I'm content to be amazed.
Doug

 

[OC1]

Toni
I am not worried, I am sure artist of your strength will master any technique. The fact is that by using PC you already choose the most versatile material that allows far more control over the output that any other material out there. When using resins or wood, it is always waiting for the random texture to be good. Sometimes it isn't.

I have some experience with finishes so I will try to work out a good high gloss and non-toxic way for PC. I use French Polishing for wood and I will try to apply this to PC (it is ethanol based so it doesn't mix with the oils and within 30 minutes the ethanol is all gone anyway). You can create a very unique and stable high gloss with FP that can be buffed into ultra piano gloss.

CA glue finish works well on almost anything, but I believe the toxicity of CA fumes are often downplayed and I would recomend to stay away from it as much as you can.

 

[Rfturner]

Thankyou toni for the great tutorial and for showing others constantly what to do. I know what I have done wrong in the past now

 

[Toni]

Ryan your welcome its all part of being a member on the board!! So what was it you were doing wrong?

 

[les-smith]

Great tut. I've been making pens from PC for a while, but I've never had any luck using the canes. I always distored them so badly they didn't look good. I see how your way would work and it makes sense. I am a man, it takes me a while sometimes. I was wondering, are the leaves and butterflies different canes or is everything just one cane cut thinly.

As far as durabilty, I agree with you. The first 5 or so I made I gave away to see how good the held up before I sold any. There has been discussion about the durablity of PC. They've all held up great. I've been finishing my with CA, but all the one I gave away have held up just great.

Anyways, thanks for the post Toni.

 

[Toni]

Yes I know with men its takes some time...LOL The leaves and butterflies are all seperate canes and EVERYTHING is sliced thin..

You are welcome!!

 

[Charles]

Very beautiful, But I must admit, I need to be watching some of the videos, I guess on youtube. I still can't grasp how you get the "cane" to look like a flower, and why are they called canes? Guess I am stuck in the PR and alumilite casting craze, and wood. Can't picture how these aree done and I read and reread the tut. Thanks for trying Toni. When you do a video, maybe then I'll get it.
Still beautiful work!

 

[Toni]

Charles I am sorry you are having difficulties grasping it. I dont think its something you can just read and "get it" right away...

This will help explain what a cane is: http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/toniransfield/sets/72157605667566334/
thats on my flickr page.

A videodont see one happening dont own a video camera, that could be dangerous!! LOL

thank you for the complement

 

[CabinetMaker]

Hi Tony,
I was wondering who makes the canes and hot they are made.

 

[HSTurning]

She (Toni) makes them.
youtube has some videos on how to make them.

 

[Toni]

Thanks Matt!! George you can go to my etsy shop http://www.toninz.etsy.com for canes and a blade to slice them with. To learn more about how the canes are made you can look here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/toniransfield/sets/72157605667566334/ Left hand side I explain how they are created.

 

[Russianwolf]

While no where near as nice as Toni's canes, here's a video that shows how they are made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6172lxLvqc&feature=related

And the funny thing is, Toni, I understood everything you were describing and I'm a Man. Granted I've been an artist since I was 3, but a man none the less.:biggrin:

By the way, the same technique used in the canes have been around for Hundreds of years. They have been used to make hard candies with designs for generations.

 

[Ankrom Exotics]

Very interesting thread. I seldom read every post of a thread this long but it seems like there was something to be learned from nearly every single contribution. Thanks to Toni and everyone else that helped to de-mystify the techniques used to achieve the finished product.

I am assuming that the overlapping of cane slices is acceptable? It's the only way I can imagine some of the effects were created. I also assume that it's important to really pre-plan your finished product and lay out the cane slices in a particular order (i.e. leaf slices below the flowers which are then below the butterflies etc...) to create the proper effects?

 

[RAdams]

I just thought of something. For those of us that have canes. You could compress the back half of a cane, and have two different sizes of the same flower? Or is this too dangerous and risky to the cane?

 

[jbmauser]

Toni, I have had some success, so now I need to work on quality, consistency and canes. My one problem is that I had to glue the clay tubes to the brass tube as they slid free. They were still tight but they could be moved. Do you put a bit of adhesive on the tube when you roll on the PC? I found a razor blade is hard to cut a cane thin as you instructed, so I smashed the slices thinner and applied them bigger and in some case smeared them a bit to get a watercolor kind of look. thanks for the advice, more canes (better I hope) to follow. Thanks again for the Tut. JB

 

[Toni]

John~I have NEVER had to glue the polymer clay to the tubes. They dont slid off when they are baked...humm..when you have the clay on your worksurface flat you take the tube and roll it up then you roll some more and remove any excess that is beyond the tubes. IF there are any air bubbles then it will not adhere to the tube.

What clay are you using? trying to figure out what the problem is..

Razor blades are the WORST!! major distortion and impossible to cut thin. I have a great blade available in my etsy shop now, got them for members on IAP.

You are quite welcome John and I love your pens!!!

 

[jbmauser]

I think the clay is Sculpty III and Primo, I think the clay used that slid on the brass tube was the Sculpty III.

Just for chuckles - so I decide I need to put a minute drop of CA on the tube and slide the clay wrap back over the CA so that it never moves again. The first pen worked without a hitch, the second one, I guess I spent a little to much time spreading it super thin and then pulling the clay sleeve down to be flush to the nib. 1/8 in. from the nib. Bam, it set up like concrete. So now I am looking at a gap of 1/8 in with nothing but air and a brass tube. I then spend 15 minutes trying to figure out what I can add to the pen to fill the space. a mini rubber seal, wire wrap, epoxy with tint. Then it hit me. Duh. you are working with clay dummy..... I added a bit of the same color clay, smoothed it with a spin and some sheet paper sort of like a burnish and baked it off. I have a pen 1/8 in longer than the others and a man on even a slow horse could not tell what I did. This stuff is way cool.. JB

Ps. the pic was taken before the glue incident.

 

[George Watkins]

hello folks after seeing Toni's pen's and reading this thread i have had a go and here's my first attempt

I bought some premo clay to use as the base colour and i also bought some of Toni's brillant cane's
I forgot to take any photo's of the tube's before baking but here they are straight out of the oven

I used a new foil container upside down in the oven and a barbeque skewer to suspend the pen tubes inside it

close up of the design

I found that they were not cylindrical so i mounted them on the lathe to take a light skim of and to do the sanding

unfortunatley the base colour came thru at the tip and clip end-next time i will make the base colour thinner

here's the finished pen

since making this one i have 3 more sets of tubes ready to assemble

thanks for all of your help Toni

 

[jbmauser]

Her canes are just off the wall beautiful! You did a great job, nice color mix. How thin did you slice them? I can't seem to get a consistent slice. I keep thinking of making a mini deli style slicer to make them paper thin. When mine a a bit to thick the image grows and smears when it is rolled. JB

 

[Toni]

Her canes are just off the wall beautiful!

You are making me blush!! Thank you!!

You need to use a very sharp blade to slice them thin. What blade are you using? If they are too thick yes they will grow and distort.

 

[kruzzer]

Toni,
your work is amazing... The tut was great but I think I'm gonna have to wait for the Movie..... I just can't quite grasp how it all smooths into a pen. Do the canes "melt" into the PC when you put it in the oven??????
Rich