Questions about ‘acrylics’

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paulbt1975

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Joined
Jul 6, 2023
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Location
Winthrop Harbor, Il
Hello, first time posting so hope I am doing this correctly. I have had a hard time turning acrylics. Jeff has given me some suggestions on things to read, I have also seen somewhere that Alumilite blanks are easier to turn than inlace acrylester. I have turned some blanks with not too many problems in the past, I am trying to think what that were, I think they may have been Kirinite blanks, can't recall the name of others I have used off hand. I have noticed problems drilling blanks and turning them lately, I don't know if I am just being impatient. I guess I am just asking if any of you feel turning one type is easier than another. I have been meaning to post some of my pens but unsure how well they look. I am afraid this doesn't sound right.
 
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Hi neighbor (I'm close to Fox Lake)....

When you say you had a hard time, can you elaborate? Did the blank chip out? Did it break?

What type of tool are you using to turn? High Speed Steel? Are you able to make sure the tool is very sharp, and do you resharpen often?
Have you tried Carbide turning tools? Specifically for resin blanks, I have found that a negative rake round cutter is very forgiving when turning resin blanks.

A couple other factors to consider: Make sure your tool rest is set to a height where your cutter, when you set it on the tool rest, horizontal and parallel to the ground, should be at the center line (middle) of the blank. Also, I have found that turning at high speeds helps - fewer "catches". I generally turn at about 3500rpm.

As for drilling, there have been many threads on this site for drilling. My advice would be to avoid heat. Drill at a slower speed (I drill at about 250 RPM. Back the drill bit out often to clear the chips as you drill. Also, if possible, avoid brad point bits. They tend to wander and you end up with an angled hole that started on center, but ends up coming out closer to one side. Are you drilling on your lathe? If not, I recommend doing that. It's more accurate than a drill press.

You are in the right place to ask for advice (lord knows I ask for advice often), so always feel free to post. If you have a pen that didn't quite turn out the way you wanted, post a couple photos and some of the folks on this site will be glad to offer their thoughts.

It sounds like you are just beginning the addiction Journey of pen turning, but it really is rewarding, and it's really good to know you can count on IAP to support you.
 
The short answer is that Inlace Acrylerster is on of the hardest and brittlest material of the commercial banks and is one of if not the most difficult to turn. Alumilite on the other hand is at the complete and extreme opposite as far as turning goes. The others are all in between them somewhere.

Try a negative rake angle on your cutter for working with the harder blanks like Inlace Acrylester and Rhino.

Be patient when drilling, heat buildup is the enemy. I also avoid brad point drills at all costs for plastics. Use a sharp, regular bit, or even better, one made specifically for drilling plastic.

Dave
 
Yes, inlace acrylester is about as unforgiving as they come.
Alumilite, on the other hand turns quite easily. Start with it.
Kirinite also is dense, so sharp tools help, but it is far less likely to shatter than acrylester.

Good advice to use a negative rake carbide tool--any tool will work, but carbide does make it easier.
Start there, ask questions--watch my videos (link in signature) if you wish-they are free and several cover turning "acrylics".

Dave entered while I was typing--but we seem pretty consistent with each other!!
 
Hello, first time posting so hope I am doing this correctly. I have had a hard time turning acrylics. Jeff has given me some suggestions on things to read, I have also seen somewhere that Alumilite blanks are easier to turn than inlace acrylester. I have turned some blanks with not too many problems in the past, I am trying to think what that were, I think they may have been Kirinite blanks, can't recall the name of others I have used off hand. I have noticed problems drilling blanks and turning them lately, I don't know if I am just being impatient. I guess I am just asking if any of you feel turning one type is easier than another. I have been meaning to post some of my pens but unsure how well they look. I am afraid this doesn't sound right.

I'm curious what kind of tools you used? As a new woodworker (2020), I ended up with a wide range of tools very quickly. I had gouges of various kinds, scrapers, skews, and also the Easy Wood Tools carbide-tipped tools. Back then, I thought I'd eventually get rid of the tools I didn't use as much... How naïve I was! I still have every tool, and more...because there really is such a thing as the right tool, or even teh best tool, for the job.

So, the first question would be: What tool are you using? Some tools are going to be FAR too aggressive with a hard, brittle material like inlace acrylester. Other tools will be more forgiving (i.e. negative rake carbide EWT tools), and others will be much more forgiving...albeit also requiring a more finessed touch with the tool.

For harder materials, you generally want to approach cutting, especially earlier on when the blank is still square or not entirely round, with "low aggression"... That will mean negative rake tools (I could explain, but instead I'll direct you to internet search engines or GPT to get a proper education on what such a tool is), or tools used at a high sheer angle (again, search or GPT! ;P) You can even combine negative rake with a high sheer angle to soften aggression of the cut even more.

I will usually use my EWT tools for hard and/or brittle materials. I am also educating myself more in the ways of using skews, and in many ways a good sharp skew, at the right cutting angle, will often do more to soften the cut than my EWT negative rake bits. In either case, you want to reduce how hard the material hits the tool, so that instead of blasting away chips, you slice and remove material in a controlled manner. This takes some practice, and its good to start that practice on softer materials, but once you have the skill, then turning harder and more brittle materials like inlace gets easier. It'll always require care, but you will have the knowledge and hopefully the right tools to do the job better.

Something else that can help is to trim off the sharp corners of your blanks, so that you end up with octagonal shaped blanks. This will take care of some of the turning work, which for a hard material like inlace can also be a huge timesaver. It also means you don't have those perpendicular contact of hard square edge to hard tool edge.
 
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Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that when I get to the end of the blanks they chip. As far as drilling on the lathe, I have a penpal lathe from Pennstate (I know, I should get a bigger lathe 😂) what Kevin said about the ending up with a angled hole is exactly what is happenig, I get drill bits when I purchase new kits.

I have a carbide magic Cove Master and the carbide magic Pen Genie. I will use these suggestions and I will definitely check out your videos Ed. Thank you for your thoughts on this.

I noticed that when I got to the ends near the bushings is when the blanks chip.
 
Oh, and, yes, be more patient!! That is a hard one, I am not the most patient person. That said, it is important to take off material at a rate the blank can handle. Every resin will chip, crack and shatter if you are too aggressive...even the softest (i.e. alumilite, actual acrylic). I don't know if you have done any normal wood turning with actual wood...but there is a saying: Let the wood come to the tool. It basically means let the wood bring the tool into the cut at whatever rate it wants to...and after you give this a try for a while, you will find that it actually does happen...you don't really need to shove a tool into a wood blank. Your hand on the tool is really there to guide the direction of the cut, not necessarily force the cut. The wood will naturally cut with a gouge, once the gouge is in proper contact with the wood...you then just need to control the angle of the tool to the wood, keeping the bevel in proper contact, and the tool will then just move through the wood. It is pretty amazing when it happens. Very low aggression, which in the end results in a clean, smooth cut without torn fibers.

While I can't say that I've seen resin actually pull a tool into itself, I have found that it does NOT take much aggression to start causing problems...either chipout, more the case with harder materials but enough aggression and you can chip out ANY resin in my experience, or what I call rippling, where you get rippled and coiled waves in the resin. IME this is the result of the heat of friction starting to melt the resin, but only so long as the tool is actually in contact, so as the tool moves along the blank you end up with a corkscrew divot or ridge...and worse, sometimes the tool itself will ripple while in contact with the blank, resulting in lots of fast horizontal ridges along the length of the corkscrew. Fixing this is easy enough when you still have material to remove, but if you do this close to your desired blank diameter, then you may well find that the effect is permanent (once the hot tip of the tool moves away from an area of the blank, it will quickly cool and solidify again.)

The solution to all of this, is to learn how quickly you can turn any given kind of material. Real acrylic turns pretty quick, as does alumilite. I turned some kind of resin (not sure what, exactly...just a solid black resin of some kind) last night, one which I'd segmented with some kirinite and alimunum metal layers. Took me near an hour to turn the upper segment (Cigar) which had the segmenting, and took me about a half hour to turn the solid lower segment. Hard material, it did not produce the nice streams of resin like I get with acrylic. I first started with my negative rake EWT tools, and eventually switched to a skew. Used the skew for most of my material removal, then switched back to very light negative rake cuts with the EWT tools for final shaping and turning just barely proud of the bushings. Took a good long while, and the right tool for each nuanced aspect of the job, but in the end I'm happy with out they turned out. A pure acrylic blank? Would have probably taken me 10-15 minutes to turn, as it just turns so much easier.

FWIW, I only actually finished the blanks earlier today. Took a while to sand them to the finish I expect. Even after sanding down to 1 micron (with white zona paper, wet), I could still see scratches in the right light. I then set the lathe to a slow spin, and used radial sanding to try and neutralize the visibility of those remnant (now just 1 micron!!) scratches. That was better, but in the right kind of lighting it still looked scratched. Did a few passes of polish with this micro fine polishing set of 3 progressively finer polishes. For some reason, that hardly seemed to do anything...maybe it just wasn't formulated for whatever resin this was? So I finally did some buffing...which in a sense is both aggressive but not all at the same time, first with Tripoli, then white diamond. Still didn't like the look after the WD, so finally put on my blue rogue wheel, and did a final third pass of buffing to really work out all the final scratches. The blanks ended up looking superb at that point (although, sadly, the buffing seemed to ruin the super shiny sheen I'd originally had on the aluminum accent bands in the segmented blank). Took several hours, lots of scrutiny, and a whole slough of different tools and techniques. But in the end, the blanks have no visible scratches, reflect light superbly well, and feel great between my fingers. I finally assembled the pen a little over an hour ago.

Let the material tell you how long its going to take, don't be aggressive, enjoy the craftmanship, and as you approach your finished diameter and shape, take lighter and lighter cuts to get the most optimal result. Take your time...its worth it.
 
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Thanks for the replies. I have noticed that when I get to the end of the blanks they chip. As far as drilling on the lathe, I have a penpal lathe from Pennstate (I know, I should get a bigger lathe 😂) what Kevin said about the ending up with a angled hole is exactly what is happenig, I get drill bits when I purchase new kits.

I have a carbide magic Cove Master and the carbide magic Pen Genie. I will use these suggestions and I will definitely check out your videos Ed. Thank you for your thoughts on this.

I noticed that when I got to the ends near the bushings is when the blanks chip.
Having chip out/blow outs on the ends is very common. Alumilite will be so much easier to turn. Patience is important as well as learning good control of your tool especially as you approach the end of your blank.

Also, when you are drilling on your lathe, it's important to stop periodically to empty the flutes, the material inside the hole you are drilling can get to be too much causing heat and pressure inside your blank. This can of course be a big issue with the heat and expansion of material..this can cause a blank to blow out. Take it slow, empty your flutes often.
 
Everyone is giving good advice so my tidbit for you is somewhat against the grain abit. This is to address the end chip out. The proper way to turn a blank is from ends toward center. Most people do not do this and get away with it. But if you are having problems start there and present the tool from the end to the center and do this on both ends. The reason behind this goes back to woodworking thoughts. If you plane a board from center to end there is no support for the tool or blade when it comes off the end. But if you plane from end to center then there is wood or acrylic material to support the cutting edge. Think about it because it makes sense. Now when you get the blank turned down to near completion than make your strokes straight across from end to end because the cut will be very fine and you will not be taking alot of material off. Good luck.
 
When I have enough surplus blank length compared to the tube length, I frequently cut the blanks as long as possible and then drill to the depth of the tube without drilling all the way through the back end of the blank. This is where the majority of the blowouts occur. Then I cut the blanks to length by trimming off the end thereby exposing the drilled hole. Heat, pressure from packed flutes, unsupported back side, and drill bit grabbing when punching through an exit hole are the primary causes for blowouts on the ends of blanks. - Dave
 
I used to HATE inlace acrylester. It always exploded on me, usually towards the end. So I avoided it like the plague. But a few years ago I discovered carbide tools held at an angle so I get a "shearing" cut. Since then, I have turned several inlace and other brittle blanks with no problems. I actually use a semi-homemade carbide chisel. I bought a carbide holder from Amazon and put a file handle from Ace Hardware on it. Works great. I know some here prefer 16mm round cutters, but I usually use 15mm square cutters with a 2" or 4" radius. I get the cutters from Amazon, too. Another thing I do that helps is to cut the corners off the blank before I start turning it. Seems to help with the initial "roughing".

If you don't like the idea of the file handle, you can always buy EWT or similar handles.
 

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So this morning I decided to give things a try by turning it.(I drilled and glued the blank yesterday) I thought I was doing so good then this happened, maybe I am being impatient, it's a Kirinite blank (prepared it before I started message) other blanks I have are lava bright. I also have some inlace acrylester (which I know stay away from till I get better)
 

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So this morning I decided to give things a try by turning it.(I drilled and glued the blank yesterday) I thought I was doing so good then this happened, maybe I am being impatient, it's a Kirinite blank (prepared it before I started message) other blanks I have are lava bright. I also have some inlace acrylester (which I know stay away from till I get better)
Your picture reminded me of some other discussions, related to all blanks and not just plastic. Be very sure to have glue between the blank and the tube, especially at the ends. Sometimes this kind of tear-out is related to bits of the blank not being securely glued to the tube.

Mark Dreyer (mg_dreyer) has an excellent YouTube that explains it much better than I can. Here is a link to it: 10 Minutes To Better Pen Making - Gluing - Mark Dreyer.

Another very good video related to glue related blowouts on plastic blanks like what you had happen was made by Zac Higgins. The the link to his video is How I Glue Tubes in Acrylic and Mixed Material Pen Blanks.

Regards,
Dave
 
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So this morning I decided to give things a try by turning it.(I drilled and glued the blank yesterday) I thought I was doing so good then this happened, maybe I am being impatient, it's a Kirinite blank (prepared it before I started message) other blanks I have are lava bright. I also have some inlace acrylester (which I know stay away from till I get better)
Are you sure that you are eating sufficient glue/epoxy down at the ends of you tubes? I've had the same issues and when I took a closer look it seems the tubes were not 1. sufficiently roughed up near the ends and, 2. looked to be a but light on the CA (thick). Was always the end of the tube that was the last part inserted into the blank (where is was on the insertion tool). So now I rough the tube up of a disk sander (not by hand) and when inserting the tubes I twist the much more that I used too, and when inserting I push the tube out the far end of the blank and add a little more CA to that end and then twist/push it back in. Wastes a bit of glue but that's cheaper than blowing out all the blanks. Good luck
 
When I was young, my Uncle was the School Superintendent in Winthrop Harbor, only for three or four years then he moved to Zion. As I recall thru my 10 year old eyes and brain, it was a very nice town. I always enjoyed the trips to IL.

I think the advice from everyone is spot on, but the end chipping I think could be related to your drilling. If one end of the blank is egg shaped, there is not good support under neath to the material you are taking away. It needs the support of the brass tube, which is not there and it breaks. THis should be easy to see by studying the end with a lupe or magnifier after milling/squaring the end.

The other great piece of advice came from John T. Round the corners first, then work to the middle. I literally round them very close to finish size and then begin to take away material in the middle. Also I hate to say it, but if it is going to break, at least you do not end up with a lot of time in a useless project.

If you can get a negative rake for your carbide magic THAT IS KEY! There IS a ton of difference in how much easier it will turn. I made my own carbide with square stock and a file....I also use a skew, occasionally, held in the same position, sideways, it is actually ground similar to negative rake, but takes some practice...that point will get you. And if used in the correct position is a great tool....practice on a 2x2 pine block before you try blanks. I use a skew a lot for other things and like them, but a negative rake is no-brainer, and is easy to pick up and use.

Lastly....if I take a lot of time off of turning pens I almost always will break a blank right off ( I turn in batches of 15 to 20). You have to be gentle, take your time, and take light cuts.....unfortunately, for me, it is not like riding a bike.....I break one.

You have come to the right place to ask questions
 
When I was young, my Uncle was the School Superintendent in Winthrop Harbor, only for three or four years then he moved to Zion. As I recall thru my 10 year old eyes and brain, it was a very nice town. I always enjoyed the trips to IL.

I think the advice from everyone is spot on, but the end chipping I think could be related to your drilling. If one end of the blank is egg shaped, there is not good support under neath to the material you are taking away. It needs the support of the brass tube, which is not there and it breaks. THis should be easy to see by studying the end with a lupe or magnifier after milling/squaring the end.

The other great piece of advice came from John T. Round the corners first, then work to the middle. I literally round them very close to finish size and then begin to take away material in the middle. Also I hate to say it, but if it is going to break, at least you do not end up with a lot of time in a useless project.

If you can get a negative rake for your carbide magic THAT IS KEY! There IS a ton of difference in how much easier it will turn. I made my own carbide with square stock and a file....I also use a skew, occasionally, held in the same position, sideways, it is actually ground similar to negative rake, but takes some practice...that point will get you. And if used in the correct position is a great tool....practice on a 2x2 pine block before you try blanks. I use a skew a lot for other things and like them, but a negative rake is no-brainer, and is easy to pick up and use.

Lastly....if I take a lot of time off of turning pens I almost always will break a blank right off ( I turn in batches of 15 to 20). You have to be gentle, take your time, and take light cuts.....unfortunately, for me, it is not like riding a bike.....I break one.

You have come to the right place to ask questions
Hi Mike, thanks for the advice on the negative rake cuter (I assumed the carbide magic was a negative rake ). Also that's interesting about your Uncle. Was he Joe Rushforth? Just wondering, maybe he was before Rushfoorth. its still a nice town.
 
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I feel like inlace will crack if you look at it wrong, but I need to work on my patience with it, especially when drilling. It is not a material that hides the cracks well, even a hairline crack filled with ultra thin CA still stands out. Alumilite is awesome to turn, but doesn't shine or hold a shine like the more brittle materials. I've found the Rhinoplatics and Kirinite to be a nice in between for me. I can't add anything more to what's been said by those that know much more than I do about it.

If you don't like the idea of the file handle, you can always buy EWT or similar handles.
Or better yet, make your own exactly the shape and size you want it. ;)
 
I love the look of Inlace Acrylester. It comes in so many gorgeous and chatoyant colors and I think it shimmers more than most of the other plastic blanks I have worked with. Also, because it is so hard and brittle it polishes to a glasslike finish. However, I don't like to turn it because of it's brittleness - even by following the guidelines provided by the owner/manufacturer (WoodTurningZ). I usually opt for Rhino blanks which are made from a highly filled polyester resin and are still very hard and polish nicely, but not quite the same as the more brittle Inlace.

There is a tutorial/document in the IAP library that was written by Bill Daniels (avbill). Although it is somewhat dated, it is still a really good generalization about the various plastic blank types and is well worth a look. It is called The Acrylic Revolution from 13-Jun-2019.

Regards,
Dave
 
No Paul...it was not Joe Rushforth. Craig Whitney and that was certainly in 60's, I'm old and I was 8 to 10 probably....lol
You have a lot to "study on"....I am no tool expert so have no idea if carbide magic is negative rake or not, but my guess if it doesn't say it all over it, it is not.....
Good luck!
 
I love the look of Inlace Acrylester.
Regards,
Dave
Inlace Acrylester is a product name. The PR (polyester resin) it is made from is PolyLite 32153 (there are at least 100 different formulations) manufactured by Reichhold. It does not have the same elasticity or machinability of S41 (Silmar 41) IMHO.

The primary benefit of Polylite over S41, is that it is designed to be loaded to 50%-70% filler(piments and additives).
 
"Acrylic" is not a generic term for any and all resins but is is incorrectly used that way. Acrylic is a specific type of resin of which plexiglass is one. While all acrylics are plastic, not all plastics are acrylic.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
"Acrylic" is not a generic term for any and all resins but is is incorrectly used that way. Acrylic is a specific type of resin of which plexiglass is one. While all acrylics are plastic, not all plastics are acrylic.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
Don, I do apologize for using the term Acrylic I didn't know the proper word to use. I am hoping that I can learn from this websit.
 
Don, I do apologize for using the term Acrylic I didn't know the proper word to use. I am hoping that I can learn from this websit.
I use the term "resin" as it is a general term that can be used to refer to acrylics, polyesters, epoxies, urethanes, acrylesters, plastics, etc. All of these are resins. Resins can be synthetic or natural, derived, liquids or solids (then usually called rosins). Resins can come from plants (i.e. some saps, often terpene derived compounds), animals (i.e. shellac from the Lac bug), natural oils (crude even, bitumens are resins) or be manmade such as the various -esters, -anes, -ics and -ies we use.

So resin is a pretty good catch-all that covers most of the plastic/acrylic like compounds we use in pen blanks.
 
I'm not going to try and chime in anything more than what everyone else has said. I've only been turning seriously for a few months and it's great to read all the answers. Thanks for asking your question.

That said, there are several really good turning clubs/groups in the Chicago area and many of them seem to meet in the western 'burbs. Chicago IAP does their meetings at the Woodcraft in Woodridge on the 3rd Saturday of each even month. Next meeting is on August 19th. It's a very nice group of folks who are very welcoming to new turners.
 
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