Refills?

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jttheclockman

jttheclockman

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This topic sort of surfaced again in a couple threads I posted in and was thinking, let me throw this question out to the masses. Parker refills VS Cross refills. I know myself I hardly use cross refills and I think it is more because there are less kits that offer them. But I sense a little bit of disdain for the use of Cross refills. So the question is why this feeling? I have a few pens that have cross refill and I use them and have no issues. They are readily available as well as all the parker styles. Now as far as replacement for cross refills is probably less than with parker and maybe that is a reason. I really prefer rollerball refills but for ballpoint pens it seems all vendors offer upgraded refills for parker style refills but I do not see any for Cross.

So to take this question even further and others can expand on their thoughts and choices, but is there a good upgrade for a cross refill?? The reason I am asking I will be making a few kits that use Cross refills. Now the ones I used in the past were not bad that came with the kits. Would like to offer a upgrade when I sell.

What is your favorite refill to write with and please leave fountain pens out of it. That is so highly subjective that it is out of my realm of expertise.

Thanks. Lets discuss.
 
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jttheclockman said:
This topic sort of surfaced again in a couple threads I posted in and was thinking, let me throw this question out to the masses. Parker refills VS Cross refills. I know myself I hardly use cross refills and I think it is more because there are less kits that offer them. But I sense a little bit of disdain for the use of Cross refills. So the question is why this feeling? I have a few pens that have cross refill and I use them and have no issues. They are readily available as well as all the parker styles. Now as far as replacement for cross refills is probably less than with parker and maybe that is a reason. I really prefer rollerball refills but for ballpoint pens it seems all vendors offer upgraded refills for parker style refills but I do not see any for Cross.

So to take this question even further and others can expand on their thoughts and choices, but is there a good upgrade for a cross refill?? The reason I am asking I will be making a few kits that use Cross refills. Now the ones I used in the past were not bad that came with the kits. Would like to offer a upgrade when I sell.

What is your favorite refill to write with and please leave fountain pens out of it. That is so highly subjective that it is out of my realm of expertise.

Thanks. Lets discuss.
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John,
I don't have an answer for you on why Parker are preferred. What I do know is Parker have a larger ink capacity. Also there are Parker upgrades. I've never seen any for Cross. My favorite Parker style refill is Schmidt Easy Flow. Writes smooth as can be but doesn't last quite as long as Parker or it's clones. Writes more like a rollerball than a ballpoint.
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It's my opinion that the generic refills that pen kits come with these days are better than they used to be. I used to use a lot of upgrade refills, but don't much anymore. The generic refills write pretty good, at least good enough for me. There are a lot of upgrade refills for Parker style, but not much for Cross style. In fact, the only Cross style upgrade refills I know of would be Cross brand. They're very expensive, and it's not worth it to me.
 
I order the Schmidt that Bullwinkle mentioned above. I mainly make pens with Parker style refills because that's what I enjoy writing with. Also, there are more options for colors, ink types, and tips with Parker style than with Cross style. I agree the stock refills are getting better, but still don't match the quality of a Schmidt. For people who like less traditional ink colors, Parker style come in gel ink and the colors there are amazing.

When I need to make a pen with a Cross style refill, I go to an office supply store and get refills to replace the stock one. There are several brands but they all seem superior to the one that comes with the kit.
 
There are lots of different brand refills out there, but you have to know what your looking for.

The "Cross" refill that we use, is actually an ISO standard C1 ballpoint refill. Be aware though, the actual Cross (branded) refill is about 1.5mm shorter than the ISO standard.

The 'Mini Cross" refill is ISO standard D1 ballpoint refill.

The "Parker" refill, is actually an ISO standard G2 refill. There a a boat load of these out in the wild. Many of these actually get Schmidt G2 refills rebranded. There is also some very poor quality knockoffs out there. I have heard a rumor that Monteverde buys the refill, empty from Schmidt, and then puts their own ink in them. NOTE: don't confuse this with the Pilot G2, which is actually a pen and not the refill. It's refill is very different from an ISO G2.

Personally, I have always liked the Schmidt G2 refills, but have heard a lot of good things about the Monteverde ink.
I have very rarely made a C1 pen, but have usually opted to buy an upgraded refill from one of our vendors.
 
In my opinion, this choice is in the same category as Fords vs. Chevys, or boxers vs briefs. Its personal opinion.

I'm partial to Cross refills, but probably because I used Cross pens for a long time.

I made two pens for my wife - one uses Cross-style refills, and the other uses Parker-style refills. As the designated pen support person in our house, I am responsible for keep her supplied with refills, and I've found that Cross (brand) refills are less expensive than Parker (brand) refills at the big-box store. It's also my sense that Cross refills write longer even though I agree that Parker refills have greater capacity. I struggle to reconcile those observations.

I think we all agree that the refills that are supplied with most pen kits aren't outstanding. Cross (brand) and Parker (brand) refills are, in my opinion, essentially equal quality and far superior to the rubbish supplied with kits. And there are other upgrade brands - Schneider and Monteverde both supply refills in both configurations. I can't find a reference to a C1 pen from Schmidt, but that may be more a reflectioin on my google skills than on Schmidt's product offering. Monteverde seems to be the only one to offer colors other than blue and black.

Ball point pen refills are covered by ISO standards. Cross-style is designated as a C1 refill, although true Cross-brand refills are actually 1.6mm shorter than the length defined in the ISO standard for C1 refills. There is also a C1 refill made by S. T. DuPont that is 4.7mm shorter than the standard. There have been many posts in this forum about nib alignment quirkiness in slimline pens - which may be related to this length variation.

Parker-style refills are designed as G2 under the ISO standard. Schmidt does offer a G2 refill in multiple colors.
 
When I first began turning pens I started with the European round top that uses the Cross Style. I bought Monverde and Cross refills. The I also turned other styles using Parker refills upgraded with the Schmidt Easyflow 9000.

The difference was that users users would take the same pen with a standard Cross style refill then switch to a Cross or Monteverde upgrade and kind of shake their yes at the difference.

They would take the same pen with a standard Parker Style refill and switch to a Schmidt Easyflow 9000 upgrade and say "Wow" consistently.

From my personal experience traveling for business, the Schmidt Easyflow 9000 writes more consistently on more papers and surfaces than the Cross or Momtverde.

The other thing is I can take a pen designed to work with a Parker refill and modify it to write with an Energel archival ink type of refill that writes on every surface with a permanent ink.
 
 
The LR7 is the refill I am referring to. Specifically, I use the LR7 A for the archival ink. Here is a link to a post for the Knurl GT conversion. Basically, you only need to adjust for the eight of the refill.

Knurl GT Rollerball Conversion

The request was for a Knurl GT that used a Pentel Rollerball refill the customer liked to use in her nursing job. The conversion ended up being pretty simple. First: replace the stock 3/8 tube with one cut to a length of 3.5 inches. Second: turn and assemble pen as normal replacing the stock...
www.penturners.org
 
MRDucks2 said:
The LR7 is the refill I am referring to. Specifically, I use the LR7 A for the archival ink. Here is a link to a post for the Knurl GT conversion. Basically, you only need to adjust for the eight of the refill.

Knurl GT Rollerball Conversion

The request was for a Knurl GT that used a Pentel Rollerball refill the customer liked to use in her nursing job. The conversion ended up being pretty simple. First: replace the stock 3/8 tube with one cut to a length of 3.5 inches. Second: turn and assemble pen as normal replacing the stock...
www.penturners.org
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Thanks for that. On the to do list is a way to offer a check-washing proof option like the Signo.
 
Ok I see many of the same responses to this topic. I agree with the fact that the refills that come with kits today are not bad quality at all I have actually never had one skip or be dried out since I started. I do not make slimlines either or any of the lower class type pen kits. I try to stay with some better quality kits. Now this Cortona kit I bought I want to start including in my line. It is probably a med quality kit but uses the Cross refill. I tried the refill that was supplied and found it just fine to write with. I at one time use to buy the upgraded refill that vendors supply with their kits they sell but got to thinking I can buy in bulk cheaper than what they sell the upgrade for. Then I took it even further, my thought process went to the various refills out there and people preferences and what they like to write with. So now when I do shows and people buy pens I ask them to try the Shimdt 9000 or whatever upgraded refill I have along side the supplied refill and if they see a difference I will change for them or just supply it along with kit. I may do the same with Cross refills now too. But I checked and there are actually many different styles there too. Size of writing ball, as well as colors. I will never supply all of these so that will be up to customer to change if they choose. Just like with pen kits themselves we as pen makers do not know the behind the scenes workings of materials used to make the kits, type of refills used and who makes either of these things. For all we know they all come off the same line with a different name on it. So from now on the pen I sell will have supplied refill and the option to upgrade to whatever I carry and that is it.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Good to see people are basically in the same boat as I when thinking about refills.
 
Schmidt also make a pressurized Parker style refill which writes like the Fisher. Sideways, upside down, on glossy paper or photos. It isn't gravity fed so it will never skip. Even writes underwater.
 
I'm glad you posted this. After seeing your post about the Cortona, I decided to get one epoxied and ready to turn with a vintage material...I think it will come out classy looking. I had forgotten what the upgraded refills were I had used in the past (I believe I posed the question here which led me to buying Monteverde refills from Exotic Blanks).

Again, thanks for your posts, and I'm glad I've stumbled back into both my shop and the IAP!
 
Cmiles1985 said:
I'm glad you posted this. After seeing your post about the Cortona, I decided to get one epoxied and ready to turn with a vintage material...I think it will come out classy looking. I had forgotten what the upgraded refills were I had used in the past (I believe I posed the question here which led me to buying Monteverde refills from Exotic Blanks).

Again, thanks for your posts, and I'm glad I've stumbled back into both my shop and the IAP!
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Please post it. I am looking for some ideas and as I said I just got them but have quite afew pens ahead of them in the que .
 
For me, it's about the ink more than the cartridge type. What you are writing on makes a big difference, too.
You may already know this, but here it is for anyone who may not. Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.
  • Ballpoint (Cross and Parker format)
    • ink is in a paste form.
    • the solvent evaporates quickly, so it dries faster than other inks (making it generally better for lefties)
    • typically takes a little more pressure on the writing surface to "spread" the ink
    • does not bleed or feather, but can be prone to skipping with low quality refills
    • is a "high mileage" ink since it is a bit more concentrated
    • writes well on more surfaces than other types of ink (like those annoying, cheap post it notes)
  • Hybrid (Parker form)
    • just a note that manufacturers indicate this just doesn't work in the Cross cartridge style (ask @ed4copies about this)
    • takes longer to dry than ballpoint, so it smudges easier
    • doesn't feather or bleed (in my experience)
  • Gel (Parker and Pilot G2 forms)
    • technically different from the hybrid in formulation, as it is a water based ink
      • not quite the same as rollerball/fountain pen ink, which is also water based. The difference has something to do with how the ink/pigment is suspended or some molecular difference in the formulation. I don't know the particulars on the chemistry and don't much care. I do know that the ink runs out faster than the hybrid, but doesn't wick out in your pocket like a rollerball.
    • thinner than the paste and hybrid ink, but goes on a smoother, and with less pressure required (I don't notice the difference in real world use)
    • available in the most color options
    • ink is also available in the Pilot G2 format, but that's not what we're discussing here

All that being said, when it comes do Cross vs. Parker, I prefer the Parker styled Schmidt Easy Flow 9000. I just like the smoothness and consistency of the end result. For me, they are even an improvement over the official Parker branded Quink cartridges. The clear plastic ones from PSI write very well, but trust me, don't drop it on the point or you'll have a mess.

As far as Cross style, I can only say that I've seen many members here say that the Private Reserve cartridges were of good quality, though I have not tried them. Montverde does have a good variety of colors for those that want something different.

For anyone that's read all of this and made it this far down, have you had any experience with the Ohto Flash Dry cartridges? I'd love to hear what you think about them. I like the needle tip style on the Pilot Precise and Pentel Energel cartridges. Maybe that would be a new favorite in the Parker style refills?
 
sorcerertd said:
As far as Cross style, I can only say that I've seen many members here say that the Private Reserve cartridges were of good quality, though I have not tried them. Montverde does have a good variety of colors for those that want something different.
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Private Reserve and Monteverde are essentially the same today - both brands are owned by Yafa Brands.

Private Reserve is an interesting story - basically, the business started out as a hobby activity by as jeweler in Zionsville, IN. It became a famous and reputable brand, but then the jewelry store owner who started it died without adequately documenting the formulas for his various inks, and without making provisions for continuity of his business. After an extended period of uncertainty, the jeweler's family sold the ink business to one of the store employees who moved it a few blocks down the street and ran it for a few years until she became ill and died. Her family then sold the business to Yafa Brands, a company that sells a variety of products, most of which are manufactured in Europe.
 
jttheclockman said:
Please post it. I am looking for some ideas and as I said I just got them but have quite afew pens ahead of them in the que .
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I had some sanding issues with this material. It's been in my shop without any form of climate control for several years, plus I'm no guru on vintage plastics polishing.
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Cmiles1985 said:
I had some sanding issues with this material. It's been in my shop without any form of climate control for several years, plus I'm no guru on vintage plastics polishing.View attachment 349534
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Very Nice. The more I see this kit the more I am going to like it. Shows off alot of blank material. The components are not outlandish to look at. Thanks for posting. Looks good.
 
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