CA Finish Question

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rjustice21

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Apr 14, 2014
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Hello all,

I have been browsing this forum for some time and have a question pertaining to CA finishes. Currently, I am getting cloudy results. Searching through the forums I gathered that it is most likely due to moisture getting into the wood or old CA. I have some questions;

-How old is too old for the CA? I have seen many people advise people to keep the CA fresh, but what is "fresh"?
-How long do you wait between CA coats? I am leaning towards waiting longer to ensure that the CA cures. Would putting CA coats on too quickly produce cloudy spots?


My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference)
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue
-10-15 coats of thing super glue
-wet MM through all the pads
-buffing compound

Any help would be appreciated. Looking forward to learning better methods. Thank you and have a great day.
 
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Welcome to the forum!!!

You will find a lot of opinions on CA finishes and the causes of the many issues here, some based in science, some based in experience, some based in superstition, and a lot in between all three of those. I'll jump in with mine, based somewhere between experience and superstition:

For me, I've had issues with cloudy spots when I used accelerator, when my CA was old (not sure about age, but there comes a time with Thin and Medium that you will notice it is thicker than it was, when you notice that, you are well past "old"...:biggrin:) and on occasion when I used acetone to wipe off sanding dust and did not give it enough time to evaporate off. Excessive humidity is another cause I could go along with, but I've never had anything I could attribute to that alone myself...

As for time to wait between coats, there are a LOT of factors in play here:

  • Thin will dry much quicker than Medium, and Thick will take longer still.
  • The amount you put on per coat will affect this time also, more of an issue with medium and thick, as it is pretty hard to put a single heavy coat of thin CA on anything other than the bed of your lathe and the floor...
  • Room temperature, In my non-heated garage here in New England, around February, a good coat of Medium can take well over an hour to dry enough for the next coat. In July it can take 2 or 3 minutes to do the same thing.
  • Use of Accelerator will speed things up, but you can have issues with a REAL heavy coat not getting completely activated with the accelerator...
In my opinion, hard and dry is not the same as "fully cured". To me, it being dry to the touch is only valid to say "time for the next coat". I ALWAYS wait 24 hours after the last application before I finish the pen. I do sand smooth, to be sure that I have enough thickness for my finish once all the CA has been sanded smooth with no pits left (I do this at 400 grit dry) I NEVER wet sand if I think I may have to put another coat on. In the event that another coat is necessary after wet sanding, I put it aside for a day or so to completely dry.

Most of the issues I had early on I attributed to accelerator, so all of my opinions come from the perspective of someone who does not use accelerator any more. Many use it and are very successful, and they may disagree with me on some of these points. I can't say with any experience about dry-hard vs. cured in the accelerator world...
 
I have an old freezer in the basement next to my pen shop. I keep the CA in there. Have not had any problems with it getting "old". It will not freeze solid just gets a little thicker. Put the bottle in your pocket while you are turning the first pen of the day and it will be up to working temp when you need it.
 
lorbay said:
I keep my CA in the Fridge (I guess thats Fresh) that bottle is from 2009.
I apply my CA give it a shot of accel then apply the next coat.
The only time I have had white spots is when I forgot to seal the ends before wet sanding..

Lin.
Click to expand...


I'll have to be sure I seal the ends. This might be part of the issue.
 
toddlajoie said:
Welcome to the forum!!!

You will find a lot of opinions on CA finishes and the causes of the many issues here, some based in science, some based in experience, some based in superstition, and a lot in between all three of those. I'll jump in with mine, based somewhere between experience and superstition:

For me, I've had issues with cloudy spots when I used accelerator, when my CA was old (not sure about age, but there comes a time with Thin and Medium that you will notice it is thicker than it was, when you notice that, you are well past "old"...:biggrin:) and on occasion when I used acetone to wipe off sanding dust and did not give it enough time to evaporate off. Excessive humidity is another cause I could go along with, but I've never had anything I could attribute to that alone myself...

As for time to wait between coats, there are a LOT of factors in play here:

  • Thin will dry much quicker than Medium, and Thick will take longer still.
  • The amount you put on per coat will affect this time also, more of an issue with medium and thick, as it is pretty hard to put a single heavy coat of thin CA on anything other than the bed of your lathe and the floor...
  • Room temperature, In my non-heated garage here in New England, around February, a good coat of Medium can take well over an hour to dry enough for the next coat. In July it can take 2 or 3 minutes to do the same thing.
  • Use of Accelerator will speed things up, but you can have issues with a REAL heavy coat not getting completely activated with the accelerator...
In my opinion, hard and dry is not the same as "fully cured". To me, it being dry to the touch is only valid to say "time for the next coat". I ALWAYS wait 24 hours after the last application before I finish the pen. I do sand smooth, to be sure that I have enough thickness for my finish once all the CA has been sanded smooth with no pits left (I do this at 400 grit dry) I NEVER wet sand if I think I may have to put another coat on. In the event that another coat is necessary after wet sanding, I put it aside for a day or so to completely dry.

Most of the issues I had early on I attributed to accelerator, so all of my opinions come from the perspective of someone who does not use accelerator any more. Many use it and are very successful, and they may disagree with me on some of these points. I can't say with any experience about dry-hard vs. cured in the accelerator world...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I don't use accelerator. I'll try a few more things and see if I can see any improvement.
 
My approach to applying CA is pretty much the same as everyone else who has replied.
I do not however wait any time in between coats. Just enough to be dry to touch, which is about 5-10 seconds.
Also I do not clean or sand the wood before I start applying the CA.

After applying CA I use a skew to smooth out the CA and then buff with MM. Usually about 6-8 mins after applying the last coat.

I have never had any problems with cloudiness other than when I forget to seal the ends before wet sanding with MM.
 
I, too, perform the CA application similar to what others have said. However, I have given up using any accelerator at all. I had too many pens look great....until a week or two later..then cracks formed all over the pen body as the lower coats of CA actually didn't cure initially, even with the accelerator. Only fix then is to take all of the finish off the body and start over. No more accelerator for me.
 
Being a relative newbie I'm not sure that my experience will help terribly much, but here goes. I am an accelerator user, and apply 15 to 20 thin CA coats to my pens. I too had issues with cloudiness until I switched to Delrin bushings that allowed me to seal the ends of the blanks before wet sanding. When I started to use the conical bushings it allowed the thin CA to cover the ends of the pen and seal it up tight. Toss in a dose of accelerator between coats (maybe 30 seconds to a minute between coats) and I've never since had a pen that ended up going cloudy on me. Just my two cents worth. If that. :)
 
rjustice21 said:
Hello all,

My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference)
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue
-10-15 coats of thing super glue
-wet MM through all the pads
-buffing compound
Click to expand...

You are getting clouds because you apply CA Glue right after you sand. You should:

  1. turn pen
  2. sand to 600
  3. clean with spirits
  4. start gluing process
 
rjustice21 said:
Hello all,

My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference)
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue
-10-15 coats of thing super glue
-wet MM through all the pads
-buffing compound
Click to expand...

Not all woods (soft woods) need all grits. For instance I don't sand holly or alder or ... past 220. Clean however you like, just make sure there is no residue or moisture left behind. I use compressed air, sometimes DNA and wipe down with a clean, dry paper towel. I'll put a coat of thin CA on and let it dry just to seal things. From there hit the dry blank with accelerator, apply CA, more accelerator (always applying to the already dry blank), more CA etc. Depending on what I'm trying to accomplish, I may switch to medium CA after the first few coats.

After you have sufficient thickness built, flatten it back down however you like.
 
twinsen said:
rjustice21 said:
Hello all,

My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference)
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue
-10-15 coats of thing super glue
-wet MM through all the pads
-buffing compound
Click to expand...

You are getting clouds because you apply CA Glue right after you sand. You should:

  1. turn pen
  2. sand to 600
  3. clean with spirits
  4. start gluing process
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I made a mistake in my process. I do wipe it down after sanding. Usually with spirits. I will try DNA and also make sure I seal the ends of the pen.
 
Reading this thread got me thinking. (I know that's a dangerous thing. )
My thoughts are to create a library article listing all the different methods we use in a CA finish. This way they are all listed and anyone new to CA finishes can try one until they hit on one that works for them. I know this would be a rather lengthy article but what do others think?
 
Age of CA

I will add my two cents for what ever they may actually be worth. I use accelerator and had never had a problem until recently. I made a very expensive pen for someone and thought I was all done until the next day when I found the finish cracked throughout. I took it all off and redid it, not using accelerator and waiting a long while before putting on another coat. That seemed to work. Haven't heard if a problem developed. I had read in several of these forums that old CA could be the problem. Like you I didn't know what old meant. Mine was a year old, kept in the garage where temp can vary widely. So got some new CA. I used the old on another pen and had cracking. Took it all off and use the new (with accelerator) and had no problem. I too wondered if refrigerating it would extend the life, but read somewhere (have no idea where) it would not and might even make it spoil faster. One individual on this thread seems to have had good luck that way. I am just going to replace mine about once a year.
 
Thanks all. I am just hoping to find a process I can settle into. I am looking forward to trying some new methods. Thanks.
 
Seal the ends?

I read this thread through tonight and there were a couple of comments about "sealing the ends."

Could someone please elaborate on this? Seal how, when, and with what?

Thank you,
Warren
 
-How old is too old for the CA? I have seen many people advise people to keep the CA fresh, but what is "fresh"? Opened, Unstored in a climate controlled zone 6 to 12 months. in a not CC area. 6 maybe 8 months mind you this is only if you purchase "fresh" to begin with.
-How long do you wait between CA coats? I am leaning towards waiting longer to ensure that the CA cures. Would putting CA coats on too quickly produce cloudy spots? I personally don't use any excelerant, I wait 5 min for thin, 10 - 20 for Med, and over an hour for thick. YES going to quick and overheating the blank as you sand your ca will draw what little moisture in the wood out clouding up your ca.


My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference) Let the DNA Evaporate completely. Alcohol is an excelerant. Acetone for Oily woods by the way again let it evaporate.
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue Good I do this with two coats and a quick sand of 400grt.
-10-15 coats of thing super glue Medium is better and wiser to use.
-wet MM through all the pads NO!!! Water is evil. one little molecule pulled in by that one spot you didn't seal up and Viola White spots and a ruined finish. Sand dry up to 600, even 800 if you wish Dry but go gentle then I use Automotive Rubbing and Polishing compound then if needed Novus #2 then Flitz plastic polish followed by Novus #1 and a final wax of Renaissance Wax.
-buffing compound Don't need it trust me.

Any help would be appreciated. Looking forward to learning better methods. Thank you and have a great day.
 
-wet MM through all the pads NO!!! Water is evil. one little molecule pulled in by that one spot you didn't seal up and Viola White spots and a ruined finish. Sand dry up to 600, even 800 if you wish Dry but go gentle then I use Automotive Rubbing and Polishing compound then if needed Novus #2 then Flitz plastic polish followed by Novus #1 and a final wax of Renaissance Wax

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure I follow. I see a ton of people using wet MM after applying CA. Do most people NOT do that? Thanks again.
 
rjustice21 said:
-wet MM through all the pads NO!!! Water is evil. one little molecule pulled in by that one spot you didn't seal up and Viola White spots and a ruined finish. Sand dry up to 600, even 800 if you wish Dry but go gentle then I use Automotive Rubbing and Polishing compound then if needed Novus #2 then Flitz plastic polish followed by Novus #1 and a final wax of Renaissance Wax

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure I follow. I see a ton of people using wet MM after applying CA. Do most people NOT do that? Thanks again.
Click to expand...

I can say I don't do Micro Mesh-wet or Dry with ca, and very rarely with any acrylic or similar blank.
What I will say is don't buy in to the hype that you NEED MM to do a high gloss finish. the beloved Ed Street aka ed4copies here on the forum. he just sands to 400 and off to the buffing station for completion.

Water is evil. when doing anything with CA. as I stated before one little molecule will irreparably hose over the finish.
 
I had cloudy spots on the ends of my early CA finished pens often, not all the time but enough to make me stop wet sanding wood blanks. Water is evil.:biggrin:
 
Here's a question. Could my sanding (after the initial turning) be causing the moisture issues? As people had mentioned, heat brings out the moisture. Maybe I am sanding too much, causing heat, and then when I put the DNA on and then start the CA process, the moisture then comes up to make the CA cloudy? I guess that would mean that I would need to do a better job with the initial turn so the sanding is held to an absolute minimum. Just a thought.
 
rjustice21 said:
Here's a question. Could my sanding (after the initial turning) be causing the moisture issues? As people had mentioned, heat brings out the moisture. Maybe I am sanding too much, causing heat, and then when I put the DNA on and then start the CA process, the moisture then comes up to make the CA cloudy? I guess that would mean that I would need to do a better job with the initial turn so the sanding is held to an absolute minimum. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

How fast is the lathe going as you sand? If you have a variable speed, crank that puppy down to no faster that 700rpm, Slower is better around 450 to 500 is the more suitable for sanding. High Speed will bring out the heat.
Buffing out you can go up to 1000rpm but be gentle.
 
Boz said:
I have an old freezer in the basement next to my pen shop. I keep the CA in there. Have not had any problems with it getting "old". It will not freeze solid just gets a little thicker. Put the bottle in your pocket while you are turning the first pen of the day and it will be up to working temp when you need it.
Click to expand...

Make sure the lid is on tight!
 
Excelerant?

Holz Mechaniker said:
-How old is too old for the CA? I have seen many people advise people to keep the CA fresh, but what is "fresh"? Opened, Unstored in a climate controlled zone 6 to 12 months. in a not CC area. 6 maybe 8 months mind you this is only if you purchase "fresh" to begin with.
-How long do you wait between CA coats? I am leaning towards waiting longer to ensure that the CA cures. Would putting CA coats on too quickly produce cloudy spots? I personally don't use any excelerant, I wait 5 min for thin, 10 - 20 for Med, and over an hour for thick. YES going to quick and overheating the blank as you sand your ca will draw what little moisture in the wood out clouding up your ca.


My process is;
-Turn pen
-Clean with mineral spirits (I'm going to switch to DNA to see if that makes any difference) Let the DNA Evaporate completely. Alcohol is an excelerant. Acetone for Oily woods by the way again let it evaporate.
-Sand up to 600 grit (sanding longways at the end of each grit)
-Seal with thin super glue Good I do this with two coats and a quick sand of 400grt.
-10-15 coats of thing super glue Medium is better and wiser to use.
-wet MM through all the pads NO!!! Water is evil. one little molecule pulled in by that one spot you didn't seal up and Viola White spots and a ruined finish. Sand dry up to 600, even 800 if you wish Dry but go gentle then I use Automotive Rubbing and Polishing compound then if needed Novus #2 then Flitz plastic polish followed by Novus #1 and a final wax of Renaissance Wax.
-buffing compound Don't need it trust me.

Any help would be appreciated. Looking forward to learning better methods. Thank you and have a great day.
Click to expand...

Accelerant...or are we making up words now too?
 
Newbie's $.02 worth

I hesitate chiming in here, because I undoubtedly have fewer hours in the craft than anyone on the forum, but....

I had issues with CA finish when I first began. I am quite sure it could be traced to the brand of CA I was using, since I changed brands and the problem went away.

For what it is worth, my procedure gives me excellent results. It is basically the same thing I remember when I watched Barry Gross's finishing tutorial at a recent Woodworking Show. If it isn't, it is my error, not his.

First, I sand the blank at a high speed, starting with 150 grit, going down to 400. For me, this is a critical step, because my work with the carbide tool sometimes leaves tiny defects in the surface that show up later when I apply CA. I spend more time with the lower two grits, making sure that the surface is completely smooth. The other grits, just enough to remove the sanding marks left by the previous grits.

I vacuum the blank and the whole lathe area to remove any dust. I then thoroughly clean the blank with DNA, using more than one cloth if needed.

I then apply multiple (8 or 9) coats of medium CA, using accelerant VERY JUDICIOUSLY after each coat. (Could I emphasize JUDICIOUSLY more?)

I then go directly to my micro mesh pads going from 1500 to 12000, and I always sand wet. I have never had a problem with the wet sanding. The finish is mirror-like.

Like I said, others will not agree with my procedure, but this works for me.
 

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