Triple and Quad Tap and Die

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Lets up the ante shall we?

What kits use 10mm dual start cap threads?

What kits use 12mm dual start cap threads?

Also what kits would be compatible with this order? i.e. the Cambridge is 12mm triple start.
 
edstreet said:
Lets up the ante shall we? What kits use 10mm dual start cap threads? What kits use 12mm dual start cap threads? Also what kits would be compatible with this order? i.e. the Cambridge is 12mm triple start.
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I for one would love to know the answer to this. It's not necessary for this thread but could move me off the fence into the 'in' group.
 
duncsuss said:
But you have not said why you want to up the ante.

It just seems like you're stirring up controversy where none need exist: allow those of us who want to buy double-starts to go ahead and waste our money (if that's how you see it.)
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I can assure you 100% there is no controversy on this. I was approached by not one but several people and the question was ask what does double start give me that single (1) lead, tripple(3) lead, quad (4) lead does not. We also have several fence sitters, those who are on the fence and would like further information as to why a tap/die in this flavor would be of benefit to them.

I was attempting to point out that there are numerous advantages, many of them hidden and not so obvious. i.e. many/most of the pen kits use dual (2) start thread sizes on the cap. Perhaps some of them are compatible here and we can use the tap/die from this order to do closed end work. No need for that plastic insert anymore.

This is news to me on the 'waste our money' comment. If you look early in this thread and note my replies I think you will find quite different. I have also been a strong advocate of multi start tap and dies for the community for some time now.
 
Why do we need to know which kits use these sizes? If you want to experiment with kitless, can't you use whatever sizes and thread dimensions you want?

Am I missing something?

I thought it may be easier to begin with double start.
 
beck3906 said:
Why do we need to know which kits use these sizes? If you want to experiment with kitless, can't you use whatever sizes and thread dimensions you want?

Am I missing something?

I thought it may be easier to begin with double start.
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Ok 2 reasons

A) One person I know has several partial pen kits for the Gent Jr. End caps and threaded inserts is missing in most of them. Assuming the inserts are compatible he would be able to use those inserts, make a closed end pen, also make his own center band, perhaps not use a center band. Also the black threaded coupler insert into the cap would be a non-issue with this tap/die (again, assuming they are compatible)

B) Economics. You will find that often times it's cheaper to buy something like an Atrax (or a triton) kit than to buy the parts needed individually to make 'kitless'. Assuming the Atrax or triton or gent or sedona or nouveau sceptre is compatible you can also now use the entire front end section on your 'kitless'.
 
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edstreet said:
duncsuss said:
But you have not said why you want to up the ante.

It just seems like you're stirring up controversy where none need exist: allow those of us who want to buy double-starts to go ahead and waste our money (if that's how you see it.)
Click to expand...


I can assure you 100% there is no controversy on this. I was approached by not one but several people and the question was ask what does double start give me that single (1) lead, tripple(3) lead, quad (4) lead does not. We also have several fence sitters, those who are on the fence and would like further information as to why a tap/die in this flavor would be of benefit to them.

I was attempting to point out that there are numerous advantages, many of them hidden and not so obvious. i.e. many/most of the pen kits use dual (2) start thread sizes on the cap. Perhaps some of them are compatible here and we can use the tap/die from this order to do closed end work. No need for that plastic insert anymore.

This is news to me on the 'waste our money' comment. If you look early in this thread and note my replies I think you will find quite different. I have also been a strong advocate of multi start tap and dies for the community for some time now.
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Care to point out these kits Ed? I havent used a kit since shortly after i started turning, but as i understood it when i was, and now, is that they are all tripple start threads. You say " many/most of the pen kits use dual (2) start thread sizes on the cap ". Care to point them out, as i, and im sure many others are unaware of them? I have never heard of one having anything other than triple start. The only reason the 2 start is on the table is because Skip mentioned it.
 
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edstreet said:
I was attempting to point out that there are numerous advantages, many of them hidden and not so obvious.
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Ed, that might be what you were attempting to do, but you didn't actually do it. (You named a single kit that uses one of the sets potentially in this group buy.)

The expression "Let's up the ante" does not translate to "Let's see if there are some other great reasons to get in on this deal that you might have overlooked." (It means to raise the stakes, to put more at risk.)

Do you see how your post could easily be misinterpreted?
 
I tried the library and quickly searched a few posts for info on which kits use which thread Sizes. Can someone save time by listing the tap/die sets to use for various kits?

Maybe I can then make an informed decision about this potential buy.

If all kits use triple starts for the components, I can still use double starts for other things or practice.
 
beck3906 said:
I tried the library and quickly searched a few posts for info on which kits use which thread Sizes. Can someone save time by listing the tap/die sets to use for various kits?

Maybe I can then make an informed decision about this potential buy.

If all kits use triple starts for the components, I can still use double starts for other things or practice.
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Rick, the only definites are that the triple start tap and die are the same that have been purchased in the past and that they fit the triple start threads for the cap on the El Grande/Churchill kits. Thats it. As far as i know. I think many others are triple start, but they are not this size of triple start. I know of none that are Quad, Double, or even single, but im sure im wrong on the last one. Also, the El Grande/Churchill, front section is a 10x1mm. This kit was the reason all of these tap and die orders came about, which is why these two sizes are the primary for groups buys. Well the 10x1mm isnt, but the triple is. But the 10mm gets used alot because of the El Grande/Churchill kit. And as far as i know, the 14mm are to big for any kit and the 10mm are to small for any kit. Again i may be wrong, but i dont believe i am.

Someone else may know other thread sizes, but as far as i know, the only reason the double start is on the table is because Skip mentioned it, and quad because someone else mentioned it. This is the first time with these group buys that someone has offered anything other than the triple start tap and die.

Justin
 
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I think it's fair to say that the assumption is that these taps dies would be purchased for making kitless pens and the reason for different sizes is for different size pens.

However, if there could be steps along the way to totally kitless, I would jump right in instead of wavering.

It seems to be known the the 12mm triple start works with the el grande.

The question that Ed brought to the table is what other kits use taps that may be on the table in this buy.

Obviously, every kit with a screw cap uses some tap and die size. The question is which one. Frankly, I'm surprised that this isn't more common knowledge in this community - which sizes that is.

This won't necessarily up the ante per player but could potentially up the number of players and ironically lower the ante of the tooling charge. :)
 
Dan Masshardt said:
I think it's fair to say that the assumption is that these taps dies would be purchased for making kitless pens and the reason for different sizes is for different size pens.

However, if there could be steps along the way to totally kitless, I would jump right in instead of wavering.

It seems to be known the the 12mm triple start works with the el grande.

The question that Ed brought to the table is what other kits use taps that may be on the table in this buy.

Obviously, every kit with a screw cap uses some tap and die size. The question is which one. Frankly, I'm surprised that this isn't more common knowledge in this community - which sizes that is.

This won't necessarily up the ante per player but could potentially up the number of players and ironically lower the ante of the tooling charge. :)
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Unfortunately no one cared to take the time to measure every kit with thread gaugues so that we could buy every tap. I beieve it was George, just happened to measure these ones. I started with them, because i already had some ElGrande front sections, so i didnt have to invest in taps and dies for the feeds and buy feeds and nibs. All i had to do was take a pre made El Grande section, Triple start taps and dies and a 10mm tap and die and a pen was made. They are also readily available to purchase seperatley. Unless soneone contacts the manufacture or takes some thread gauges to them, its all hearsay. I think someone might have measured a Jr Gent one time, but i dont see the reason for matching all of them. If you have a certain pen size in mind, take a caliper too the threads and buy triple taps in that size, or whatever double, triple, or quad you desire.
 
Here, this is on IAP somewhere but i dont know where. Pulled them out of my hard drive. Some of them have ? marks, so i dont know how much i would trust it all. As far as i know this is the best list you are going to find.

Justin
 

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Code: 
[U]Name[/U]               [U]leads[/U]               [U]OD of male threads[/U]
baron/sedona;           quad;           9.5mm
gent jr (dayacom);     dual;               9.9mm
gent IIa (csusa);     dual;               9.8mm
nouveau sceptre;     triple;             9.8mm
gent sr;               triple;               11.6mm
churchill;               triple;              11.8mm
cambridge;               triple;            12mm
imperial;               triple;               11.27mm
emperor jr;               triple;             9.9mm
atrax (compat with emperor);     triple;     9.9mm.

Horribad formatting support here but this is what I just measured. I did not measure the min ID on the threads.
 
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AGAIN,

As I have stated in my original post on this. If we do double there is a chance that some pen kits will work, (namely the Gent Jr's, either dayacom's version or csusa's version). There are also others on the market as I do not have them and unable to measure them but some other kits may fit the bill as well.
 
Interesting. All the Jr Gents i have are triples. Not sure where i got them, that was many years ago. Must be somewhere other than where these were from.

But in order for them to fit, they have to have the same thread size, not the same tenon size, so unless someone is willing to thread gauge some kits, the list ive shown, is the best there is. This was comprised in a thread somewhere here on IAP, and many people gave these thread sizes. Which are right or wrong for sure, i dont know other than the El Grande. Maybe more people will chime in.
 
Hmmm.... Weird they did that. You/or someone still needs to gauge them and then buy the correct size tap and die. I dont think the one in this thread will just end up fitting any of these kits. Those will be a little harder to gauge to since they are flat bottom threads. Youll need special gauges for those and any like them, and a different type of tap and die to cut them. If you want to match any kit, someone with that kit needs to take measurements with a gauge, and calipers.
 
I also see that Most of the kits on your list Ed are Triple lead and not dual lead. Looks like only part of the Gent Series are dual lead. All kits i have in my posession are Triple as well. Anyone else have anything different?
 
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Timebandit said:
I also see that Most of the kits on your list Ed are Triple lead and not dual lead. Looks like only part of the Gent Series are dual lead. All kits i have in my posession are Triple as well.
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Only the gent jr, venus, statesman. Perhaps the highest selling series, next to the sierra's.
 
edstreet said:
Timebandit said:
I also see that Most of the kits on your list Ed are Triple lead and not dual lead. Looks like only part of the Gent Series are dual lead. All kits i have in my posession are Triple as well.
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Only the gent jr, venus, statesman. Perhaps the highest selling series, next to the sierra's.
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I didnt mean it that way. Just focusing on the thread sizes and starts. Im actually curious what else is out there now. I dont use kits, and havent in some time, but i didnt know many were switching to the doubles. Ive never used one so i cant say which feels better to use, or stays capped better. Ive used triples, and have a couple vintage pens that are Quad lead.
 
Lots of good information here. We are now up to 11. I don't mind fence sitters and we have time to figure this out. Not like the quote expires anytime soon. There is lots of good information here. There is one UK member interested. If there are others I would be willing to send one box out and have that person ship on to the rest of the UK from there. Would save a bunch on shipping.

So it looks like the Junior Gent and it's companion pens are would work with this. Anyone able to machine M10 or M12 double start threads on a lathe and give it a shot? I would if I could do more than barely make an object round on my metal lathe.
 
jyreene said:
Lots of good information here. We are now up to 11. I don't mind fence sitters and we have time to figure this out. Not like the quote expires anytime soon. There is lots of good information here. There is one UK member interested. If there are others I would be willing to send one box out and have that person ship on to the rest of the UK from there. Would save a bunch on shipping.

So it looks like the Junior Gent and it's companion pens are would work with this. Anyone able to machine M10 or M12 double start threads on a lathe and give it a shot? I would if I could do more than barely make an object round on my metal lathe.
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Ty, its not about the diameter of the threads. Its about the pitch. If someone can match the pitch, you can make these is any size your heart desires. But as i said above, these are not normal threads. They are flat bottom threads. So they will require, different gauges to measure and different tools to be able to cut. I dont think your going to find anyone interested in doing this just to match another kit. The pitches for the taps and dies from previous threads are 60 threads, and work fine for what we do. I dont think there is much more i can add to this subject. Good luck in your search.
 
Thanks Eamonn. I had you on the spread sheet this just helps me keep track here. We are now 12 M10 Doubles and 11 M12 Doubles. We are good on the 10s but more are welcome. 12s need one more.
 
Got asked a question about the taps. We can mix and match tapered and bottoming with no extra charge.

Still good on be M10 double starts.

M12 double starts are up to 11 still. One is a maybe so we really would need 2 more.

As before I'll keep this running and open until we get 12 of each. Hopefully soon but no rush.
 
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