Teacher not allowed to use red ink!

[Cmiles1985]

My wife and I just removed our fourth grade son from public school to teach him ourselves due to reasons like the OP mentions. When my ten year old son asks "what comes after Thursday?" there is a real issue. The "educators" are forced to instill a culture, not an education, into our children's minds. I recently wrote a very concise letter to the principle, superintendent, and my congressman wondering why the school system was so much more worried about the quality of my child's diet (whether or not he shares or brings a snack for after school) rather than the quality of my child's education. I received a poor response blaming government administration and generalization of needs/wants. While the response I received was accurate, the sense I got was that the "educators" have similar feelings to myself. Why have fear of noncompliance? I'm not saying revolt, but if you feel something is better for your child, class, etc., go for it!
Some of you may think I'm horrible for this, but when it came to my son doing homework, he was not allowed to leave the table until it was done in reasonable penmanship with all words spelled correctly. He has had to cry it out a few times, but this is what it takes. Educators should not have to fear the students and their parents, but it is an unfortunate reality. I fear the quality of American culture when my kids are grown.

Just remember: every kid deserves to pass and get an award just because they're there. That is the "new" thought. How will this make their work ethic (or lack thereof)? It's bad enough that not many people my age will work hard (especially when "entitled" with a college degree). It's easier to get food stamps and other forms of "benefits."

I apologize for the off-topic rambling, but I strongly feel that things as simple as "hurting a child's self esteem" are the roots of this nation's many current problems.

 

[sbell111]

I think the problem is more that some parents believe that schools should be a child's sole source of education. This attitude leaves the school to handle a huge number of kids that are behind from day one. Every child suffers while the schools do the best to drag those kids up to the bare minimum.

BTW, my four year old knows the days of the week. She hasn't stepped into a school yet.

 

[Cmiles1985]

Had "my" son been a part of my life from birth that would likely be the case. He's my stepson, and these are things we continue to work on. The days of the week deal is an example. Mom tends to baby him a lot more since that's the way she was raised. It's a learning curve for her to encourage independence. I'm not making excuses for either, but I can guarantee that with her and I being the sole educators of our child, he will be far better off than with people that follow the rules of the educational system.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.

I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country. It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se. Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.

 

[sbell111]

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.

I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country. It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se. Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.

You continue to respond to the issue with your feelings and limited experience. That's not so useful to these discussions, in my opinion, since our personal experiences are going to differ from that of the kids most affected by this issue. It's sort of like people who rail against new car safety features with the argument that their parents drove a '62 Rambler and they turned out just fine.

That's why I posted the link earlier and absolutely begged for you and others to read it. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water...

If you don't want to read what my googling turned up, that's fine. Do your own research, but please don't continue to discuss the issue out of ignorance because that doesn't bring the discussion forward, at all.

 

[SDB777]

My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen. When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!

Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?

So what color did you make her teachers pen?



Scott (inquiring minds must know) B

 

[sbwertz]

My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen. When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!

Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?

So what color did you make her teachers pen?



Scott (inquiring minds must know) B

I didn't. I made her a mulberry and turquoise Le Roi Elegant and a pepper mill. You can't get the small refills for the teacher's pen in other colors, that I could find, anyway.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.

I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country. It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se. Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.

You continue to respond to the issue with your feelings and limited experience. That's not so useful to these discussions, in my opinion, since our personal experiences are going to differ from that of the kids most affected by this issue. It's sort of like people who rail against new car safety features with the argument that their parents drove a '62 Rambler and they turned out just fine.

That's why I posted the link earlier and absolutely begged for you and others to read it. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water...

If you don't want to read what my googling turned up, that's fine. Do your own research, but please don't continue to discuss the issue out of ignorance because that doesn't bring the discussion forward, at all.

I read the link Steve and was less impressed by it that you were.

Perhaps my experience is limited but I had 6 children in public school from 1978 to 1989 and college (both public and private) from 1981 to 1993 and we were active parents and our children were active students.

We did check their work to see what they were doing, we talked to their teachers and administrators.

We were social friends with several school administrators and teachers and still are in contact with a couple of them although both they and we have moved so we our contact isn't frequent anymore.

Our children were also in cub scouts, brownies, blue birds, and 4-H and we were active in those things working with children as well. I coached little league baseball teams, worked with Pop Warner style football, and elementary school basketball. Both my wife and I were leaders of various 4-H projects for many years...our children were in 4-H from 1973 to 1989.

We had dozens of children, rich, poor and middle class, visit our home during the summer to swim in our pool and had more house guests than you can imagine during the winter for "over nights".

We took in Freshair children from NY City for a few weeks for several years.

We took a foreign exchange student from Mexico for one school year and we had a student spend a semester with us when his parents transferred because of a work move and he wanted to graduate with his class.

In addition, I have more than one related college course on my transcript. And I'm pretty well read on a lot of subjects including this one.

I suggest we've had more experience with school age children (ranging from babies to College graduates) than most so, while my observations are ad hoc, I am not speaking completely off the cuff.

Perhaps I should state that the central tenent of my point should be directed at "Why, are we teaching our young people that it matters what color is used to grade their papers." Or perhaps "Why did we teach the parents of youngsters that red marks on papers were derogatory?' and the next question is "Why don't we just stop doing that?"

 

[sbell111]

My daughter is a teacher and I thought I would make her a teacher's pen. When I asked her about it, though, she told me she was not allowed to use red ink, because it was not good for the students' self esteem to get back a paper covered in red ink!

Did I mention that she teaches tenth and twelfth grade International Baccalaureate English classes?

So what color did you make her teachers pen?



Scott (inquiring minds must know) B

I didn't. I made her a mulberry and turquoise Le Roi Elegant and a pepper mill. You can't get the small refills for the teacher's pen in other colors, that I could find, anyway.

Office Depot carries them in nine different colors. This thread will definitely result in my buying a few green and purple refills as we sell a number of teacher pens just before Christmas and the end of the school year.

 

[sbwertz]

No. We have discussed this in depth. She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling. These are HONOR students, about to enter college.

I'm thinking that if they are honor students about to go to college, that they are probably pretty set as far as grammar, punctuation, and spelling are concerned.

She teaches international baccalaureate sophomore and senior English. The sophomores' papers are pretty bad. If she is lucky enough to get them again as seniors, they do a lot better, but certainly not as well as I did as a senior in high school in 1961. Papers they do at home on the computer are better because they have spell and grammar checkers. But papers written in class are still full of spelling and grammar errors, and punctuation is completely erratic. Commas appear more or less at random, and semicolons don't even exist!

Their vocabulary is quite good, and they are well-read. They can analyze and explicate a piece of poetry, or a passage from a play. (They have to do that in the mandatory oral exams.) But their writing is pretty awful. Most of them have problems constructing a well crafted thesis statement, let alone a properly organized essay.

 

[sbell111]

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.

I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country. It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se. Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.

You continue to respond to the issue with your feelings and limited experience. That's not so useful to these discussions, in my opinion, since our personal experiences are going to differ from that of the kids most affected by this issue. It's sort of like people who rail against new car safety features with the argument that their parents drove a '62 Rambler and they turned out just fine.

That's why I posted the link earlier and absolutely begged for you and others to read it. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water...

If you don't want to read what my googling turned up, that's fine. Do your own research, but please don't continue to discuss the issue out of ignorance because that doesn't bring the discussion forward, at all.

I read the link Steve and was less impressed by it that you were.

Perhaps my experience is limited but I had 6 children in public school from 1978 to 1989 and college (both public and private) from 1981 to 1993 and we were active parents and our children were active students.

We did check their work to see what they were doing, we talked to their teachers and administrators.

We were social friends with several school administrators and teachers and still are in contact with a couple of them although both they and we have moved so we our contact isn't frequent anymore.

Our children were also in cub scouts, brownies, blue birds, and 4-H and we were active in those things working with children as well. I coached little league baseball teams, worked with Pop Warner style football, and elementary school basketball. Both my wife and I were leaders of various 4-H projects for many years...our children were in 4-H from 1973 to 1989.

We had dozens of children, rich, poor and middle class, visit our home during the summer to swim in our pool and had more house guests than you can imagine during the winter for "over nights".

We took in Freshair children from NY City for a few weeks for several years.

We took a foreign exchange student from Mexico for one school year and we had a student spend a semester with us when his parents transferred because of a work move and he wanted to graduate with his class.

In addition, I have more than one related college course on my transcript. And I'm pretty well read on a lot of subjects including this one.

I suggest we've had more experience with school age children (ranging from babies to College graduates) than most so, while my observations are ad hoc, I am not speaking completely off the cuff.

Perhaps I should state that the central tenent of my point should be directed at "Why, are we teaching our young people that it matters what color is used to grade their papers." Or perhaps "Why did we teach the parents of youngsters that red marks on papers were derogatory?' and the next question is "Why don't we just stop doing that?"

If you had actually read that link, you wouldn't ask those questions because you would know that it isn't the fact that teachers use red ink that makes the color red the problem.

It should also be noted (or probably not) that you appear to still be abusing the term 'ad hoc'. I should start a thread on this serious abuse of our language.

 

[sbell111]

No. We have discussed this in depth. She is not to use red ink, her corrections are to be couched in "non critical terms," she is told that it is more important that they "express themselves" than to have correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling. These are HONOR students, about to enter college.

I'm thinking that if they are honor students about to go to college, that they are probably pretty set as far as grammar, punctuation, and spelling are concerned.

She teaches international baccalaureate sophomore and senior English. The sophomores' papers are pretty bad. If she is lucky enough to get them again as seniors, they do a lot better, but certainly not as well as I did as a senior in high school in 1961. Papers they do at home on the computer are better because they have spell and grammar checkers. But papers written in class are still full of spelling and grammar errors, and punctuation is completely erratic. Commas appear more or less at random, and semicolons don't even exist!

Their vocabulary is quite good, and they are well-read. They can analyze and explicate a piece of poetry, or a passage from a play. (They have to do that in the mandatory oral exams.) But their writing is pretty awful. Most of them have problems constructing a well crafted thesis statement, let alone a properly organized essay.

One wonders how they made it into the honors class. If I were a teacher or parent in that district, I'd be pretty upset.

While it's true that I am completely unimpressed when people go nuts over schools not teaching cursive or teachers not using red ink, underperforming schools really bug me. I understand the challenge that public schools have in working with fewer dollars and more students and having to deal with kids that start out well behind and/or don't have any interest in learning, when I hear about schools that have honors programs, but aren't even properly preparing those kids for college, it drives me a little bonkers.

 

[Smitty37]

It's not just a 'self esteem' thing. How we perceive the color red is ingrained in us. Please read the page that I linked earlier. It will only take a minute of your time.

I see people of all ages wearing red clothes, driving red cars, eating red apples and red & green symbolize the joy of Christmas to most people in this country. It seems to me that it isn't the color red per se. Trust me, when teachers use a different color, in time that color will get the same treatment as red because it will be associated with criticism.

You continue to respond to the issue with your feelings and limited experience. That's not so useful to these discussions, in my opinion, since our personal experiences are going to differ from that of the kids most affected by this issue. It's sort of like people who rail against new car safety features with the argument that their parents drove a '62 Rambler and they turned out just fine.

That's why I posted the link earlier and absolutely begged for you and others to read it. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water...

If you don't want to read what my googling turned up, that's fine. Do your own research, but please don't continue to discuss the issue out of ignorance because that doesn't bring the discussion forward, at all.

I read the link Steve and was less impressed by it that you were.

Perhaps my experience is limited but I had 6 children in public school from 1978 to 1989 and college (both public and private) from 1981 to 1993 and we were active parents and our children were active students.

We did check their work to see what they were doing, we talked to their teachers and administrators.

We were social friends with several school administrators and teachers and still are in contact with a couple of them although both they and we have moved so we our contact isn't frequent anymore.

Our children were also in cub scouts, brownies, blue birds, and 4-H and we were active in those things working with children as well. I coached little league baseball teams, worked with Pop Warner style football, and elementary school basketball. Both my wife and I were leaders of various 4-H projects for many years...our children were in 4-H from 1973 to 1989.

We had dozens of children, rich, poor and middle class, visit our home during the summer to swim in our pool and had more house guests than you can imagine during the winter for "over nights".

We took in Freshair children from NY City for a few weeks for several years.

We took a foreign exchange student from Mexico for one school year and we had a student spend a semester with us when his parents transferred because of a work move and he wanted to graduate with his class.

In addition, I have more than one related college course on my transcript. And I'm pretty well read on a lot of subjects including this one.

I suggest we've had more experience with school age children (ranging from babies to College graduates) than most so, while my observations are ad hoc, I am not speaking completely off the cuff.

Perhaps I should state that the central tenent of my point should be directed at "Why, are we teaching our young people that it matters what color is used to grade their papers." Or perhaps "Why did we teach the parents of youngsters that red marks on papers were derogatory?' and the next question is "Why don't we just stop doing that?"

If you had actually read that link, you wouldn't ask those questions because you would know that it isn't the fact that teachers use red ink that makes the color red the problem.

It should also be noted (or probably not) that you appear to still be abusing the term 'ad hoc'. I should start a thread on this serious abuse of our language.

Kindly refrain from suggesting that I lied Steve I did read the blog. I just didn't find it as convincing as you seemed to.

In the context ad hoc is used to mean exactly what you know it was used to mean.

I gave an number of examples that you should have understood were showing that it is not the color red that is the problem.

Red Delicious Apples are among the most popular varieties found in supermarkets.

I checked a site that listed high school team colors for most of the schools in Nebraska and red was very well represented...red is also included in the team colors of many colleges.

In 2012 red was the 5th most popular color for automobiles according to Forbes.

That at least suggests that it is not the color red itself but the context, we don't seem to be teaching our children that red is bad, just that red on school work is bad. Red cars are nice, red bows are nice Christmas decorations, red hearts are lovely Valentines --- but red marks on a school paper tell Johnny that the teacher hates him and that he'll never amount to anything. That seems to me to be a world of dumb.

 

[BayouPenturner]

In my opinion the Red ink noting my mistakes in school drive me to do better and made them easier to find on my papers. I grew up in the public schools were the taught and did not worry if the teacher hurt my feelings when they told me I made a mistake. they wanted their students to do better and excel. now days my grand kids are too sensitive and wimpy. if they don't toughen up and learn they will not compete in the world markets.

Our society is too liberal and are loosing in the world overall. We have dome people in the military who are not deployed for various reasons, over weight, social issues, I think you should be engaged or get out, our country depends on all our great troops.

Also, Thank You to all our servicemen and women.

 

[Cmiles1985]

What the red ink thing directly boils down to is that there is no consequence for actions, thus no need to take accountability of your actions. This lifestyle is ingrained in our school-aged children. Then, when they actually get disciplined, they think that they're the victim. This cultural style has run rampant through our country. Look at nearly all politicians and celebrities for examples. What do our kids learn when they are brought up to think they can do no wrong?

 

[Smitty37]

Ad Hoc

One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.
​

ad hoc (æd ˈhɒk)
adj, adv1. for a particular purpose only; lacking generality or justification: an ad hoc decision; an ad hoc committee.

FYI Steve, green is the context in which I used ad hoc....an ad hoc observation, or to be more specific "my observation is ad hoc..."

​

 

[sbell111]

One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.
​

ad hoc (æd ˈhɒk)
adj, adv1. for a particular purpose only; lacking generality or justification: an ad hoc decision; an ad hoc committee.

FYI Steve, green is the context in which I used ad hoc....an ad hoc observation, or to be more specific "my observation is ad hoc..."

​

that's interesting, because the only way it really worked in your context is the other half of your stated definition, but that's not very flattering to you.

 

[sbell111]

What the red ink thing directly boils down to is that there is no consequence for actions, thus no need to take accountability of your actions. This lifestyle is ingrained in our school-aged children. Then, when they actually get disciplined, they think that they're the victim. This cultural style has run rampant through our country. Look at nearly all politicians and celebrities for examples. What do our kids learn when they are brought up to think they can do no wrong?

What is the difference in accountability if papers are graded in some other color than red?

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I think we've bludgeoned this topic enough, don't you think? 10 pages on ink colour is probably plenty!

Andrew
assistant moderator

 

[Smitty37]

One authority gives this definition and while others define it separately for the adjective and adverb use they support that ad hoc used as either an adjective or an adverb has essentially the same meaning.​

ad hoc (æd ˈhɒk)
adj, adv1. for a particular purpose only; lacking generality or justification: an ad hoc decision; an ad hoc committee.​

FYI Steve, green is the context in which I used ad hoc....an ad hoc observation, or to be more specific "my observation is ad hoc..."​

that's interesting, because the only way it really worked in your context is the other half of your stated definition, but that's not very flattering to you.

Regardless of the relationship to my stated definition, you and I both know my use was correct. My error was not the use of ad hoc. It was later, where I erred by calling a noun a verb.

I might well think that you write things unflattering to you also Steve, including your compulsive making of personal comments when your ideas don't hold water. Can you ever accept when you've been shown to be wrong?

 

[maxwell_smart007]

That last post just after I posted settles it in my mind - it's become just a bickering thread, and I'm closing it.

Andrew
assistant moderator