Missing the old classifieds...

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Overall, I think the new rules are an improvement. I do miss the people who sold blanks on the old classifieds. Whether because of the new rules, the other reasons mentioned above, or maybe just the time of year I do not see the same selection of wood blanks that I used to see. As a result, PSI, woodturningz, woodcraft, and ebay have gotten more business from me. For kits and supplies, I still buy from the "bigger" sellers here who have web sites, but I miss the guys who used to ship a priority box full of wood for a very good price. I hope they start coming back.
 
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kovalcik said:
Overall, I think the new rules are an improvement. I do miss the people who sold blanks on the old classifieds. Whether because of the new rules, the other reasons mentioned above, or maybe just the time of year I do not see the same selection of wood blanks that I used to see. As a result, PSI, woodturningz, woodcraft, and ebay have gotten more business from me. For kits and supplies, I still buy from the "bigger" sellers here who have web sites, but I miss the guys who used to ship a priority box full of wood for a very good price. I hope they start coming back.
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If they don't come back - it shouldn't be because there is a cost. I know that if a seller posts 5 flat rate boxes for sale in a $5 classified, I would have no issue spending $1 extra on a box to help the cover the cost of selling me that box of blanks here so I don't have to go other places! Knowing that the money keeps IAP running, I have absolutely no problem with the seller passing that cost along.
 
alphageek said:
Knowing that the money keeps IAP running, I have absolutely no problem with the seller passing that cost along.
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I agree with you. I would gladly pay a little more to support IAP. I do not know why they are no longer around. Maybe the rules, maybe health issues as you mentioned, or maybe it is just a bad time of year for people (I joined last spring, so maybe this is normal for the winter months). I just hope they start filtering back.
 
I did a little looking around and found one thing interesting...... Most of the people making a big deal about missing the classifieds and wishing things would return to the good ole days where vendors cound post anything anywhere they felt like it, weren't very active members even when the classifieds were in full swing!

It's clear that some visit the forum to participate in sharing ideas, showing their work and helping others when they can while others just visit to participate in threads like this one and gripe about how things could be better.

I've got a novel idea, instead of complaining, how about making a pen and showing it in the SOYP forum or sharing your experiences next time a new member posts asking a question!

I don't think it's a shame the classifieds are gone, what I think is a shame is when someone posts a question being stumped with a problem, there are the usual handful of members who will respond with help or advice and for a forum with several hundred active members that's pretty SAD! But let a controversial thread like this one start and look at them come out of the woodwork! :eek:
 
Texatdurango said:
I did a little looking around and found one thing interesting...... Most of the people making a big deal about missing the classifieds and wishing things would return to the good ole days where vendors cound post anything anywhere they felt like it, weren't very active members even when the classifieds were in full swing!

It's clear that some visit the forum to participate in sharing ideas, showing their work and helping others when they can while others just visit to participate in threads like this one and gripe about how things could be better.

I've got a novel idea, instead of complaining, how about making a pen and showing it in the SOYP forum or sharing your experiences next time a new member posts asking a question!

I don't think it's a shame the classifieds are gone, what I think is a shame is when someone posts a question being stumped with a problem, there are the usual handful of members who will respond with help or advice and for a forum with several hundred active members that's pretty SAD! But let a controversial thread like this one start and look at them come out of the woodwork! :eek:
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I've got a novel idea too: Let's ALLOW ALL members to state their opinions without one particular member telling them their posts are "unworthy"!!

Then those who like any ONE section can come and go without someone's verbal abuse of how they make THEIR choices!!!
 
We do what we can....

Texatdurango said:
I did a little looking around and found one thing interesting...... Most of the people making a big deal about missing the classifieds and wishing things would return to the good ole days where vendors cound post anything anywhere they felt like it, weren't very active members even when the classifieds were in full swing!

It's clear that some visit the forum to participate in sharing ideas, showing their work and helping others when they can while others just visit to participate in threads like this one and gripe about how things could be better.

I've got a novel idea, instead of complaining, how about making a pen and showing it in the SOYP forum or sharing your experiences next time a new member posts asking a question!

I don't think it's a shame the classifieds are gone, what I think is a shame is when someone posts a question being stumped with a problem, there are the usual handful of members who will respond with help or advice and for a forum with several hundred active members that's pretty SAD! But let a controversial thread like this one start and look at them come out of the woodwork! :eek:
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Well I put that in this category...I read many of the questions. Most of them I'm not the guy who can help with an answer. I'm sure I'm not the only one here in that position. For instance, there are many questions about CA finishing, well I've never done a CA finished pen in my life so what good would my advice be. The reason there are a certain few who answer most questions like that is there are a certain few who have the experience and expertise to answer. And even in the three years I've been coming here some of the folks answering now weren't answering then.
 
ed4copies said:
Texatdurango said:
.....
I've got a novel idea, instead of complaining, how about making a pen and showing it in the SOYP forum or sharing your experiences next time a new member posts asking a question!
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I've got a novel idea too: Let's ALLOW ALL members to state their opinions without one particular member telling them their posts are "unworthy"!!

Then those who like any ONE section can come and go without someone's verbal abuse of how they make THEIR choices!!!
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My, my, did I hit on a nerve or what! VERBAL ABUSE, who are you kidding! Actually you're way off base, I'm not TELLING anyone anything, I'm just voicing my OPINION..... just like those who are complaining! The last time I looked, that's still allowed here!
 
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I will add to this conversation from a point of view that hasn't been heard from yet.

I was a small time seller from the old classifieds who hasn't posted an add in the new classifieds. I think I ran 3 adds... so not much smaller than that.

I haven't posted on the new classifieds, not due to the cost issue or any other issue from the new posting rules. Although I was extremely confused when the first came out ( and still am but I will work that out privately with those individuals when the time comes ). My issue is I make pen blanks and have started seeing more and more. In the last few months seems like everyone is making there own and wanting to sell them. I'm not in the same boat. I make 3 - 5 blanks on what I think will make a nice pen, make that pen, if someone asks about the blank I let them know I made it myself and that I have extras.

Ive sold quite a bit from the old adds and still get orders. If I get my stock back up I may post another add, the money or new rules wont deter that.
 
Smitty37 said:
ed4copies said:
MesquiteMan said:
Guys, let's please try to remain friendly here!
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Looks really funny to see a TEXAN speaking CANADIAN!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


(See original post with Andrew's edit explanation---lost something in the "copy" process)
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I think I would have added a "s"....
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Actually, that was my intent when I posted that. It was supposed to be "Let's please try to remain friends" rather than friendly. His edit works fine too, though. This is a good example of why we typically do not edit posts. One little edit can change the meaning significantly. Andrew did fine with this one, though.
 
Texatdurango your observations are correct, I noticed it as well, and it is worth paying attention to. Lower post count members are giving their opinion here.

First, have a look at this thread. It explains why few answer questions.

As to why your observation is important is that they (those that don't often contribute) feel this topic is important enough to voice their opinion, that says a lot IMO and I hope the mods listen to everyone, not just the very active members.

AK
 
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I join March 2010 and I must say this site is how I learn how to turn pens, learn how to do casting's with various media,where i can buy my wood, tools, pen pouches, etc., talk to other pen turners, and share each other knowledge all for no cost !!!!.
Pen writing is becoming very extinct, lets not make pen turning extinct, "SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE" Louie Bufalo/louie56
 
Andrew_K99 said:
Texatdurango your observations are correct, I noticed it as well, and it is worth paying attention to. Lower post count members are giving their opinion here.

First, have a look at this thread. It explains why few answer questions.

As to why your observation is important is that they (those that don't often contribute) feel this topic is important enough to voice their opinion, that says a lot IMO and I hope the mods listen to everyone, not just the very active members.

AK
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Ouch! I can see this one exploding!
 
alphageek said:
Andrew_K99 said:
First, have a look at this thread. It explains why few answer questions.
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That poll is still the funniest thing I've ever seen.... A lurker by definition is someone who only reads. How do you count them in a poll if all they do is read? :eek: :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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Okay, I agree the poll is flawed by the content. I hope the mods and other members found the 90-9-1 as interesting as I did.

AK
 
alphageek said:
Andrew_K99 said:
First, have a look at this thread. It explains why few answer questions.
Click to expand...

That poll is still the funniest thing I've ever seen.... A lurker by definition is someone who only reads. How do you count them in a poll if all they do is read? :eek: :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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LOL! That's true ... if you're just a lurker and only read, you're not gonna click on the "I'M A LURKER!" button.
 
Having never seen the old ads, but from the sound of it the new ones are better it would appear.
Also having come from a turning forum that treated new people badly, I can say that this forum is the best. I have learned more here since I have joined, have purchased a number of items from some venders and members. Haven't found anything in the classifieds that I wanted yet.
It is a great place and hope to add when I can with my expertise, in areas that I know.
This is a great forum!!
:clown:
 
Let me pose a question. I don't want an answer, I just want you all to ponder it.

If a new member were reading this thread, do you think it would make them want to hang around?

I ask this because lately I've been very focused on bringing in new members. Why? Because any community needs a steady stream of new blood with new questions and new ideas. I believe it's our responsibility to educate new members and bring them into the great word of penmaking. It makes us a stronger community and drives us all to excel at what we do.

Without new members participating, we'll wither and die. It's really that simple.

I spend hours every week doing things which I hope will grow our community. Over the last couple weeks, for example, I've done some search engine optimization and adwords advertising that has doubled the new member registration rate. I've spent well over 20 hours since last weekend tweaking our sitemap generator, linkback system, and social network integration so we'll get better positioning and convert visitors to new members.

I don't think new members expect utopia, and in fact I think they like to see that this is a lively place where they can express their opinions. But can we please be a little more respectful of other's different opinions?

I can bring them in, but I count on ALL OF YOU to maintain this as a place where they'll WANT TO STAY. Please help me.
 
I was hoping this thread would act sort of like a poll regarding the new classifieds sections so that Jeff and the administrators can have a feel of how the change is perceived and i thank those who have expressed their opinions on that matter.

However, i'm quite saddened to say the least by the attitude and loudness of what i would tend to call the "serial posters". It seems that some just can't leave in peace if only one person is in disagreement with their view and can't help but reply at any hint of dissent. This results in others opinions being drowned by the resulting noise, which in the end make this kind of thread hard to read and confusing. In that regard i wish the OP could set a maximum number of replies allowed for each member.

Thanks Jeff for this great forum - still love it you know! :biggrin: :smile:
 
Hi peoples,

There is one thing that I think everyone is forgetting about, and there is the human nature of "alleviating" some personal steam...!
What I mean is, WE all seemed to get pushed towards these type threads, why...??? well, making pens, selling wood, and all the other dozens of stuff we do or have to do in our life's, there is a time were we get a little "numb". Some call it routine, habit, etc, etc but, I call it "life" in its various shapes and forms, and regardless of who you are, were you live and colours of your skin, we all need to do a bit of "wingeing", every so often, even if it feels like something else.

However, I can see that a lot of people is right about what they say and feel, even tough that may be miss interpreted by some, particularly the new members that don't really know, what we are talking about...!

My advise to these new members is, don't make much of it and don't worry about being in the wrong place, you couldn't possible be in a better place to achieve what made you come in, in the first place, there is, learn...!:wink:

And cutting a long story short (well, maybe a year or two...!), you will find yourself being a participant in these type of "stress relief" threads, even if the OP didn't intend of such, some time from now so, this is all part of this "cycle" of learning and sharing info on the web, regardless if pen related or not...!

There is also some truth to the fact that, the lack of adds from many of the smaller vendors (such as myself), has nothing to do with the classifieds changes within IAP, of which I'm in total agreement with Jeff.
There are many other reasons why some of these people haven't been much active lately, none of them direct involved with the changes but simply due to timing and other commitments.

Sure, there are a few "disgrunted" members that aren't happy that the "cow run out of milk", there aren't or weren't much of a member, as they were here for one purpose only so, for these people is a case of, "bad tities...!":wink::biggrin:

I also think that, may be a unfortunate reduction of responses from the "old timers" to the newbie's, this is only logical and expected as, is only so many times a person is prepare to respond to the same question, time and time again...! Of-course, those questions are as important now as they were when we all started learning how to make pens, and deal with its relevant issues so, they will be continued to be asked, for many more years to come. However, I think that, if IAP could manage to some how prepare a "welcome" and an agreed/voluntary group answering people/older members, that will have the responsibility to welcome and issue these new members with, a sort of a "starter kit" to help them to navigate and know where to look to find things within IAP, that would probably solve the disappointments/claims, some new members feel/felt when they joined in...!

While, having a good library within, a new member will not appreciate to be sent only to the library and search for what he/she wants to know, that is the fastest way to loose a new member, just thing of what you though or would thing/react upon such response, in your very beginnings here, they need, expect and deserve to have that personal response from someone...! We all done the same trip.

So, there is no need to panic Jeff, the new members will continue to grow as the pen making interest is growing all around the world, IAP is still their best choice for their needs, and many of us will continue to make sure, they get their questions answered and that, they will find everything they need, particular Aussie pen blanks in my case, within this forum's wall's...!

Cheers
George
 
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This thread is very interesting. I have read all of the posts and must say that it has the feeling of a lot of the older posts that used to go on and on with a hint of discord and underlying anger. I thought that this type of thing had sort of passed away. I still read lots of posts and comment occasionally. To me the ads are different, just that. Not good or bad, just different. It is always interesting to me how involved some of the threads become and how something so benign as the original comment could cause such a discussion. IF the new ad system support IAP then good. There are no dues, no costs to participate and if you don't support it by donating then who and how does it get by. Think about it, are you doing something to support IAP? If not, then either find a way that you can or accept the current system. I like this forum and will continue to support it in the ways that I do and hope that everyone else can see their way to do so also. I really thought that this issue had been put to bed a long time ago.
 
I submitted ads under both systems, not much difference from my point of view. I consider myself as a 'small vendor' only offering one type of product and will continue to place ads when I have 'supplies' to sell.
 
Due to work overload and a continental move, I have been basically absent for the last couple of years, except for a few spurts on occasion. But one of the things that I just noticed was the absence of ads.

I know that the moderators have a handful and they do a great job. But I also still miss the ads. In looking for some blanks, I went to the classifieds as I was supposed to and I was surprised to see a lack of fresh posting by one of my favorite suppliers of a couple of years ago. It was/is the ease of supplies/blanks that brought me here as much as anything else. I come to read and see what is going on and how I can help, but I also come to see the creativity of people who make blanks rather than run to large commercial vendors. It is our forums own vendor personnel that drive the industry. Placing them in a classified section DOES organize the process on this forum but it also takes them out of the mainstream.

I personally liked the ads in the mainstream. AS to the idea that on orders, there is the repeated "PM Sent" post - that is not a distraction at all and should not be even mentioned as a reason for moving to the classifieds. I enjoyed seeing all of the "PM Sent" only posts because it showed the popularity of our creative vendor's work as well as the quality of their work or cuts or displays.

I realize that I am only one and I don't purchase from high pressure people, from gaudy ads, and from people who tell me what I want. I don't trust classifieds in magazines without doing my own research. I don't trust printed material outright. But I do trust the vendors here. My opinion is not that much of a priority but I will post it in hoping my opinion is valued.

Until this thread, I wondered what I was missing and it suddenly dawned on me that I was missing the thing that pulled me into making more pens - the beautiful wood and blanks that came up regularly.

I would like to see it brought back to the mainstream.

For any who agree, or disagree, please keep it civil. I am not wanting to re-ignite anything but wishing that this subject be reconsidered.
 
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okay, I'll offer my neck for the chopping block.

I've travelled extensively in my life and one of my favorite things to do in other countries is to go to the huge local bazaar or outdoor market. The excitement in those places is intense and you can feel the enthusiasm of the vendors there.

I loved the old classifieds and came to IAP often for those specifically. Why? Because I enjoyed seeing the blanks, lined up by the score, in post after post after post. I liked seeing the deals to be had and the newest of the new offerings. I loved the uncontrolled enthusiasm of the vendors, big, small and in-between... and I bought from them. I've spent thousands of dollars on pen kits, blanks and equipment as many of you have.

If a large vendor just completed a small batch - new thread! Updated often! Loved it!

Is all that gone? Not entirely, but some vendors of every size seem to have curtailed their postings dramatically, or have spaced them in order to get the most in the least amount of threads.

Since the rule change, I've reduced my visits here dramatically, not purposely, but as a result of the changes I, as a buyer, haven't the same enthusiam that I felt leaked down to me by the vendors.

What have I just defined myself as?
Not so much a sharer of expert knowledge as I am not an expert.
Not so much a highly talented penmaker, because I don't push the envelope. I enjoy making kit pens from blanks others make and sell.

I am a buyer.

That's apparently a lower life form according to some here - Tex and others who prefer to shout down opposition. Yeah, you guys are known for that. You made that bed, lie in it.

I miss the rampant vendor posting. Ed, Constant, and many others were favorites of mine to follow.

Is my opinion popular? No. But that's fine, too. I'm only one small penmaker and I'm sure I'm not missed here at IAP. Some of the vendors are still receiving my business, but I've moved some of my purchases to local retailers as a result.

Chop away. :wink: I won't be here much to notice.

.
 
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Is my opinion popular? No. But that's fine, too. I'm only one small penmaker and I'm sure I'm not missed here at IAP. Some of the vendors are still receiving my business, but I've moved some of my purchases to local retailers as a result.

Greg--thanks!! I read that as "Ed is an enthusiastic, energetic vendor"!

I don't think your opinion IS so isolated. The success of our little company is, I believe, a strong demonstration (if not proof) of the interest of many IAP members in hearing about, and purchasing products. Some members did not like it and have been vocal enough to convince "IAP management" that is needed changing. So be it.

Remember though, we are JUST AS ENTHUSIASTIC as we have EVER BEEN!!! We are merely forced to "curb our enthusiasm" when participating in IAP threads. The pendulum swings, it will, after sufficient time, come to rest in the middle.

KEEP VISITING IAP!!! There is no better place to "talk pens" and, for us, MAKE FRIENDS!!!

Ed
 
Greg O'Sherwood said:
okay, I'll offer my neck for the chopping block.

I've travelled extensively in my life and one of my favorite things to do in other countries is to go to the huge local bazaar or outdoor market. The excitement in those places is intense and you can feel the enthusiasm of the vendors there.

I loved the old classifieds and came to IAP often for those specifically. Why? Because I enjoyed seeing the blanks, lined up by the score, in post after post after post. I liked seeing the deals to be had and the newest of the new offerings. I loved the uncontrolled enthusiasm of the vendors, big, small and in-between... and I bought from them. I've spent thousands of dollars on pen kits, blanks and equipment as many of you have.

If a large vendor just completed a small batch - new thread! Updated often! Loved it!

Is all that gone? Not entirely, but some vendors of every size seem to have curtailed their postings dramatically, or have spaced them in order to get the most in the least amount of threads.

Since the rule change, I've reduced my visits here dramatically, not purposely, but as a result of the changes I, as a buyer, haven't the same enthusiam that I felt leaked down to me by the vendors.

What have I just defined myself as?
Not so much a sharer of expert knowledge as I am not an expert.
Not so much a highly talented penmaker, because I don't push the envelope. I enjoy making kit pens from blanks others make and sell.

I am a buyer.

That's apparently a lower life form according to some here - Tex and others who prefer to shout down opposition. Yeah, you guys are known for that. You made that bed, lie in it.

I miss the rampant vendor posting. Ed, Constant, and many others were favorites of mine to follow.

Is my opinion popular? No. But that's fine, too. I'm only one small penmaker and I'm sure I'm not missed here at IAP. Some of the vendors are still receiving my business, but I've moved some of my purchases to local retailers as a result.

Chop away. :wink: I won't be here much to notice.

.
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The two parts highlighted in red go hand in hand. You are a buyer and that bazaar/flea market atmosphere excites you. The IAP is here first as an informational site on penmaking. The buying and selling is an extra perk (or not, depending on how you look at it), so I believe that's why you feel that you're opinion is "not popular".
 
Just a thought...

I've been a member for just a little over two years. Before I joined I sold on eBay and I was invited to join by several different members who knew me only as a seller. They asked me to join because they thought I was a good guy to do business with and offered prices that would make a lot of members happy.

In short, they asked me to join because I was a vendor - not because they thought I would contribute to the 'how to' aspects of the site. I tend to think I'm not the only small vendor who got here that way. Others started selling because their friends here urged them to. We are all performing a service by selling here. Yes we sometimes make a profit - we need to do that to keep selling to you - but I suspect none of us is getting rich by selling in this venue.

Clubs, groups, hobby forums and whatever, usually come into being because of sharing a common interest and that is true of IAP... and at some point almost all of them start to invite sellers of products in which they also have a common interest to their meetings (or sites). Those sellers should not be treated like "poor relatives".

I get a bit upset when people who are "pen" vendors complain about folks who are "pen components" vendors poluting their site...that seems just a tad hypocritical to me.
 
Many thanks to you all for your comments.

I went through this thread several times to identify the common themes and I have gotten some good information. I've got some ideas for small changes that could make big differences, so give us a little time to work on those and figure out how to move forward.
 
Greg - there is this little thing called the birthday bash that is absorbing any time that Jeff can put toward IAP. Once that gets done, I'll bet he starts thinking about other site stuff again.
 
jeff said:
Many thanks to you all for your comments.

I went through this thread several times to identify the common themes and I have gotten some good information. I've got some ideas for small changes that could make big differences, so give us a little time to work on those and figure out how to move forward.
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I think the hard part in all of this is to find that middle ground, where you are trying to provide a service that works out well for all parties. In the case of this site, that's pen makers and component providers. The craft needs both, and the site hosts both.

What I'm gathering from this thread as a pen maker that really never participated in the classifieds section (as a buyer or seller) is that you've got a good number of site members that miss a service that's been curtailed maybe just a little to much to try and reach other goals you've set for the site and yourself.

Good luck on finding that balance that works to keep everyone happy as possible, knowing that whatever you do there's going to be some small portion of the community you've built that isn't going to be happy with it. My prayers will be for some good guidance as you and the others try to figure it out.
 
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old forum

I have not posted any of the pen boxes or leather cases since the new rules. Simply can"t afford to for what I sell them for. I did like and enjoy the old forum to where I could brouse what other people were trying to sell. I started coming to this forum because I love making pens and love the craft. Always wanting to improve myself and will still come to this forum for that reason. I tried to put the like thumb up on a couple of Smittys post on this thread and I was not allowed to> I wonder why?.. This is a great place to learn and to share with like minded people... would like to be able to share the things I have came across. but can't afford to.......:frown:
 
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