That is not your call either, Scott. This is JEFF BROWN's forum, REMEMBER? Remember your breakaway forum. If you don't like the way this forum is run, restart it.
Vendor Marketing
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That is not your call either, Scott. This is JEFF BROWN's forum, REMEMBER? Remember your breakaway forum. If you don't like the way this forum is run, restart it.
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
And visa-versa
For those who think I might be a "sheep" following Ed around. I think he would be the first to acknowledge (after me) that we do not agree on every subject that comes up and that neither of us is very shy about letting the other know when we disagree. I just happen to think his position on this matter is right.
For those who think I might be a "sheep" following Ed around. I think he would be the first to acknowledge (after me) that we do not agree on every subject that comes up and that neither of us is very shy about letting the other know when we disagree. I just happen to think his position on this matter is right.
JerrySambrook
Member
Roy,
I must have changed that while you were on.
Adams,
I see you are a man of your word, so I do not know how to address you.
I must have changed that while you were on.
Adams,
I see you are a man of your word, so I do not know how to address you.
JohnU
Member
Well I've been called many things in life but never a sheep, (lol) and simply because many have same opinions that are not the same as yours. Not to mention they were posting it where it was asked of them.
I can relate this to dealings at work where I've suggested to troubled children that were angry at how things didn't go their way to simply take themselves out of what anger them. To move on and try to be happy somewhere else. Life is too short.
I can relate this to dealings at work where I've suggested to troubled children that were angry at how things didn't go their way to simply take themselves out of what anger them. To move on and try to be happy somewhere else. Life is too short.
phillywood
Member
vow!! wholy pen (I don't know which one?:biggrin::tongue::biggrin:!!!!!!!!!)
Last edited:
Take care of myself
You're surely entitled to your opinion, but I don't need anyone but Smitty to speak for me....other vendors can make up their own minds. And, personally I don't really care if someone else gets special treatment or better treatment than I do. Maybe it ain't fair, but who the h--- ever said life is fair. It's like a game of cards...ya gotta play with the hand ya get dealt.
You're surely entitled to your opinion, but I don't need anyone but Smitty to speak for me....other vendors can make up their own minds. And, personally I don't really care if someone else gets special treatment or better treatment than I do. Maybe it ain't fair, but who the h--- ever said life is fair. It's like a game of cards...ya gotta play with the hand ya get dealt.
PR_Princess
Member
So far, I have stayed out of this fray. But no longer
Ron, Exotics does not get any special treatment on the IAP, despite your continuous misguided accusations. I suggest that you do a little more research into the company, and get some FACTS before you go off half cocked again. But for you to try claim that ANY member of this forum, (who also happens to be a seller on Exotics be it Ed, Toni, Jeff Powell, John U. or myself), should be censored and denied the same rights and privileges that are awarded to other members of the IAP is just plain wrong. And I will defend their rights.
Again I suggest that you get some FACTS first. But since you are new here let me make this a bit easier. The MVV was established by Jeff as a way of thanking long standing members. Members that were also major contributors to the site. Did Ed earn this? Yes. Years before Exotics was even conceived. One day it is a position that or you or I may merit. But this is Jeff's forum. It is his decision alone, and today is not that day.
I can not speak for other vendors, but I believe that they do have the same opportunities. In fact, if I recall correctly, even you and your cactus blanks appeared in forums other than the purely advertising ones...
Ron, Exotics does not get any special treatment on the IAP, despite your continuous misguided accusations. I suggest that you do a little more research into the company, and get some FACTS before you go off half cocked again. But for you to try claim that ANY member of this forum, (who also happens to be a seller on Exotics be it Ed, Toni, Jeff Powell, John U. or myself), should be censored and denied the same rights and privileges that are awarded to other members of the IAP is just plain wrong. And I will defend their rights.
Again I suggest that you get some FACTS first. But since you are new here let me make this a bit easier. The MVV was established by Jeff as a way of thanking long standing members. Members that were also major contributors to the site. Did Ed earn this? Yes. Years before Exotics was even conceived. One day it is a position that or you or I may merit. But this is Jeff's forum. It is his decision alone, and today is not that day.
I can not speak for other vendors, but I believe that they do have the same opportunities. In fact, if I recall correctly, even you and your cactus blanks appeared in forums other than the purely advertising ones...
Well said.
Gin N' Tonic
Member
Don't think I ever said it was my call, Just stating my opinion. Last time I checked I was allowed to state my opinion. Perhaps you should remind yourself that it is JEFF BROWN'S forum and NOT LOU METCALF'S.
Yes, I remember. I also remember you wanting to buy it.
ThomJ
Member
Ok, this horse meat is tender enough
As always, it appears that a few people are on the verge of taking this discussion too far. The rules say:
No trolling. Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to annoy people.
No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.
Personal attacks are not permitted, ever.
Now in terms of the discussion at hand, I don't see any reason why it needs to be done in this manner - if you think someone's breaking a rule, report it, and show WHICH rule is being broken.
Ed is definitely a vendor who has a high profile on the forum. That's because he's a member of the forum. If he's always here, it's likely that he'll have more posts than the people at Woodcraft, PSI, etc. - that's not favoritism because they're more than welcome to join and post pens whenever they like.
I also don't see any special treatment being given to any vendors. If the owner of CSUSA, or Constant, or any other person shows off a unique pen in the SOYP forum, I'd expect them to tell me where the blank came from. If, however, they then post a classified ad in the same thread, I'd have a problem with it.
Ed does turn his own stock, but that seems to be expected, wouldn't you think? I think your dislike of Ed is clouding your view of all of his posts. He is not, in the SOYP forum, selling his stock - at least not that I've seen.
I have not seen any vendors breaking the advertising rule - but if you see them, then click the yellow triangle.
Again, I'll say it - click the yellow triangle to report violating posts.
Clear enough? The yellow triangle is your way to report to the moderator that you have found a violation of the rule. If you do not click the yellow triangle, then you have not reported a rule violation.
Just one last thing - let's stop bickering, ok? It's rather childish!
No trolling. Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to annoy people.
No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.
Personal attacks are not permitted, ever.
Now in terms of the discussion at hand, I don't see any reason why it needs to be done in this manner - if you think someone's breaking a rule, report it, and show WHICH rule is being broken.
Ed is definitely a vendor who has a high profile on the forum. That's because he's a member of the forum. If he's always here, it's likely that he'll have more posts than the people at Woodcraft, PSI, etc. - that's not favoritism because they're more than welcome to join and post pens whenever they like.
I also don't see any special treatment being given to any vendors. If the owner of CSUSA, or Constant, or any other person shows off a unique pen in the SOYP forum, I'd expect them to tell me where the blank came from. If, however, they then post a classified ad in the same thread, I'd have a problem with it.
Ed does turn his own stock, but that seems to be expected, wouldn't you think? I think your dislike of Ed is clouding your view of all of his posts. He is not, in the SOYP forum, selling his stock - at least not that I've seen.
I have not seen any vendors breaking the advertising rule - but if you see them, then click the yellow triangle.
Again, I'll say it - click the yellow triangle to report violating posts.
Clear enough? The yellow triangle is your way to report to the moderator that you have found a violation of the rule. If you do not click the yellow triangle, then you have not reported a rule violation.
Just one last thing - let's stop bickering, ok? It's rather childish!
Thanks for all the comments.
Feel free to vote on the issue if you have not already, feel free to leave a simple comment for or against the idea, but let's squash the parts of this thread which have gone into the weeds.
Thanks
Feel free to vote on the issue if you have not already, feel free to leave a simple comment for or against the idea, but let's squash the parts of this thread which have gone into the weeds.
Thanks
greenmtnguy
Local Chapter Leader
For anyone that feels that this forum is unfair, I would suggest a Yahoo group that is free and you can set it up to allow only people you approve of and I believe you can toss off anyone you want. Problem solved for this unfair forum. If I thought this forum was so biased, I certainly would start my own much improved site. The current theme seems to be detract from this forum, not contribute meaningfully. Life's problems will not be solved on this forum.
jack barnes
Member
Ron I don't care if you stay a member or not, but I think it would be any eye opener if you was to start the poll you suggested and see how it comes out.
Jack
Jack
arioux
Member
For those of us that are around for a while, thre was a time that a CSUSA representative was a member here (sorry, i don't recall his name). He was showing his pens (CSUSA kits of course), and was even presenting their new kits in the SUYP forum with a clear mention "Hey this is out new kits". He even had his own topics for the special of the mount. And no one was complaining, on the contrary we where all expecting the end of the mount to see the new special for IAP member.
My point is any vendor have his place on IAP if he wants to take it and we should be happy about it, we are privilege (sp) to have them so close to us. Mabe some are more apparent and don't miss an opportunity to mention their business but this is what it is, a business and some folks have a great business sense. That might shock some but i personnaly just don't care if Ed says "We at Exotic...bla bla bla... well either i read or i skip. Id Smitty talks about his kits, ir read or i skip. If Manny talk about his glue, i read or i skip. What the He....ll is the problem.
Jeff, do what you want or need to do. Whatever you choose some will like some won't anyway and it seems that lately, every subject is good for rock throwing.
My opinion: I need the vendor information because I am a custommer ! And if they consult me about something, i am a satisfied custommer.
orry for the long post but i had to write it.
My point is any vendor have his place on IAP if he wants to take it and we should be happy about it, we are privilege (sp) to have them so close to us. Mabe some are more apparent and don't miss an opportunity to mention their business but this is what it is, a business and some folks have a great business sense. That might shock some but i personnaly just don't care if Ed says "We at Exotic...bla bla bla... well either i read or i skip. Id Smitty talks about his kits, ir read or i skip. If Manny talk about his glue, i read or i skip. What the He....ll is the problem.
Jeff, do what you want or need to do. Whatever you choose some will like some won't anyway and it seems that lately, every subject is good for rock throwing.
My opinion: I need the vendor information because I am a custommer ! And if they consult me about something, i am a satisfied custommer.
orry for the long post but i had to write it.
mick
Member
Jack ...yOu took the words right out of my mouth!
NewLondon88
Local Chapter Leader
I just saw this discussion and thought I'd put in my $.02
I would be really concerned if I saw all 'marketing research' moved off to
another area.
The 'research' done here tends to be very informal. It isn't usually
done as a marketing survey, more like a show and tell with requests for
comments.
I'm no Carnac the Magnificent, but I can see how this could play out..
Vendors (or potential vendors) get moved off to another area of the forum,
and any time they venture out of that area, they are accused of 'marketing'
outside their cage. (many people don't read the classifieds, the same way
many people skip over the advertisements in magazines or newspapers,
skip the commercials on TV etc. so they might never see the vendors
again)
Then the users who had a problem with a vendor get to force The Powers
That Be to beat up the vendor on their behalf.
The users lose, because they get less information from the vendors. The
Vendors lose because they become (in effect) ostracized and relegated
to a separate area and lose touch with potential customers.
Blatantly using a forum for your sales pitch without becoming a part of
the community tends to make you stand out, and not in a good way.
Groups like this tend to be very good at self policing these types of
situations.
But if we move vendors off into another area and start charging advertisers
then we risk losing their participation, or worse, anything they say that is
not in a paid ad gets turned into a "violation"
Then this forum wouldn't be any different than the other forums online.
(the ones I won't join)
As for paid ads .. I wonder if that would offset the vendor donations that
could be lost if they felt they were no longer a 'part of the group'
Just my opinion, it could be wrong
I would be really concerned if I saw all 'marketing research' moved off to
another area.
The 'research' done here tends to be very informal. It isn't usually
done as a marketing survey, more like a show and tell with requests for
comments.
I'm no Carnac the Magnificent, but I can see how this could play out..
Vendors (or potential vendors) get moved off to another area of the forum,
and any time they venture out of that area, they are accused of 'marketing'
outside their cage. (many people don't read the classifieds, the same way
many people skip over the advertisements in magazines or newspapers,
skip the commercials on TV etc. so they might never see the vendors
again)
Then the users who had a problem with a vendor get to force The Powers
That Be to beat up the vendor on their behalf.
The users lose, because they get less information from the vendors. The
Vendors lose because they become (in effect) ostracized and relegated
to a separate area and lose touch with potential customers.
Blatantly using a forum for your sales pitch without becoming a part of
the community tends to make you stand out, and not in a good way.
Groups like this tend to be very good at self policing these types of
situations.
But if we move vendors off into another area and start charging advertisers
then we risk losing their participation, or worse, anything they say that is
not in a paid ad gets turned into a "violation"
Then this forum wouldn't be any different than the other forums online.
(the ones I won't join)
As for paid ads .. I wonder if that would offset the vendor donations that
could be lost if they felt they were no longer a 'part of the group'
Just my opinion, it could be wrong
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
This is probably the most well thought out, intelligent post in this thread. Thanks for saying it so well!
witz1976
Member
yup:beat-up:
Ron, WE'RE NOT ALL SHEEP, we simply recognize a quality vendor who sells the stuff we want. There are MANY of those on the IAP. Although you imply that ED has some super powers over us, we are not his HERD OF SHEEP slogging through the mud to get to the Internet Kiosk at the end of the fence row to bang our snouts on the screen to place our orders. We make decisions based on quality, service, and selection, and PARTICIPATION. More often than not around here, a vendor like that gets A LOT of business. He thrives, and being human he wants to do more of the same, so he brings us MORE stuff to buy, and we lap it up. We'd love FIFTY vendors like that. We are penmaking NUTS, we spend money until we need to go print more to buy milk for the baby. It's a symbiotic relationship, and it's good. They got. We want.
Since so many of us enjoy Ed's products, including me, and since your broad statement "All you sheep have fun following Herder Ed around!" was pejorative and offensive from several angles, to Ed and the members who enjoy purchasing his products, it's obvious to me that you've lost respect for our members, the IAP, and at least one of our Vendors. Sorry about that conclusion, but this is my living room, and that's my conclusion.
I don't know what we've done to draw fire from you Ron, but we need to calm things down a bit.This is a great time of year for us - fall is rapidly creeping up on us, most of us will be heading to our shops to stock up for shows or make Christmas gifts. When we come to the forum we like to learn things, buy some stuff, have a little fun sparring with our pals, argue a little sometimes, laugh at jokes and each other, and generally enjoy life. What we have going here is pretty nasty self-fulfilling diatribe and it stops now.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
Thank you!
Thank you for your eloquence, Jeff. And your quiet leadership.
JerrySambrook
Member
Hey Mudder,
You state that you are allowed to state an opinion, so why can't Jeff do the same thing if he wants as well. Especially on his forum.
rjwolfe3
Member
So now that football is starting, how bout them Cowboys!!:biggrin::biggrin:
arioux
Member
We should have a separate forum for that
greenmtnguy
Local Chapter Leader
Maybe Jeff just needs to say" this is how it is, like it or leave" About now I wouldn't mind hearing the door slam a few times. How about talking pens, pen turning, wood, and maybe ask a friend how they are doing, and try to help someone that needs help. Quit pulling the damn walls down. I am standing on my toes now. 
I know from the pms I get, I am not the only one sick of this perpetual crap.
I know from the pms I get, I am not the only one sick of this perpetual crap.
rjwolfe3
Member
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Thank you Jeff.
I am much more comfortable turning pens, talking pens and teaching pens than I am defending my existence.
Unfortunately, I learned in high school--some people will continue to demean you until you strike back. I don't enjoy it, but I enjoy being derided even less.
I will very happily go back to making NO negative posts, as I have tried to do in the 10000 that predated this incident.
Thanks to all for putting up with the last couple weeks.
I sincerely hope it is over.
Being not a sports fanatic, how bout that Don Ward symposium????? Scintillating, eh???
Thanks again, Jeff.
I am much more comfortable turning pens, talking pens and teaching pens than I am defending my existence.
Unfortunately, I learned in high school--some people will continue to demean you until you strike back. I don't enjoy it, but I enjoy being derided even less.
I will very happily go back to making NO negative posts, as I have tried to do in the 10000 that predated this incident.
Thanks to all for putting up with the last couple weeks.
I sincerely hope it is over.
Being not a sports fanatic, how bout that Don Ward symposium????? Scintillating, eh???
Thanks again, Jeff.
Rick_G
Member
I voted for allow it anywhere. I am one of those that seldom get past the home page. If it is on there and the title interests me I read it. If not I pass. If you are trying to sell me " sham wow's" or car parts on this site I may get a little upset maybe even enough to comment on your ancestry to the monitor screen and move on. I've got to many other things going on in my life to worry about whether someone posted in the right forum or not. The more rules there are the more likely someone will break one whether on purpose or not. If your thread is not on the home page when I sign in there is a really good chance I will never see it. The last time I checked the homepage just lists the latest dozen or so threads that have been posted in since the last time I checked in no matter what forum they were originally posted in.
lwalden
Member
+ 1
louisbry
Member
Thanks Jeff. I voted to keep it the way it is. The worthy vendors promote the art of penturning and the "others" become known for what they are. You and your moderators do an excellent job keeping the forums within the stated rules and when you are forced to "police" a little bit the vast majority of the members support you.
Incidentally I did a search with the keyword "Exotic Blanks" and 20 pages came up. On the first three pages I counted 6 posts by ed4copys and
PR_Princess and 68 posts by other members. The first 3 pages are fairly representative of the other 17 pages. I THINK THAT MOST MEMBERS ARE VERY HAPPY!
mick
Member
Thanks Jeff, you keep the IAP a great place!
Absolutely
I'm going to be out of town for a couple days with little time to comment on this, so I decided to end the poll a day early and make this post. As you can see, the result is overwhelmingly in favor of allowing vendor marketing with a moderate edge to confining it to its own forum.
I'm leaning toward either allowing vendor research in business classifieds and counting each post on that subject against the two post per day limit in that forum, or creating a new forum in the buy, sell, and swap category and allowing two market research posts a day. Anyone with an opinion on that can post or PM me.
Within the next week or so I'll write up what I believe are appropriate guidelines for this. I'll TRY to define what I mean by "vendor marketing" and separate it from the "sneaky marketing practices" described in the AUP. I'm sure there will be situations that arise which we'll have to deal with on an individual basis, but the guidelines will be a start. They'll be simple and straightforward. Until they are posted, carry on as usual. Another thing I'll clarify is the posting of finished pens by vendors in SOYP, and the mention of material in a post there (such as, here's a pen I made with a blank from xyz...) [hint - both will be allowed, as now]
My goal with the guidelines will be to provide an acceptable means to allow tasteful and tolerable vendor research. Anyone who thinks this vote means we're going to have a free-for-all of "would you buy this" and "do you want me to make this" should not worry. No matter whether this is confined to its own forum or allowed generally, this does not mean the vendors are going to have free run. We want to help them help us, but the IAP does not exist for vendors to profit from us. It exists for the purpose of sharing and education, and allowing the "necessary" amount of vendor research will help educate them as to our wants and needs.
Thanks for all your comments and your vote. I think this will clarify an issue that is important to our community.
I'm leaning toward either allowing vendor research in business classifieds and counting each post on that subject against the two post per day limit in that forum, or creating a new forum in the buy, sell, and swap category and allowing two market research posts a day. Anyone with an opinion on that can post or PM me.
Within the next week or so I'll write up what I believe are appropriate guidelines for this. I'll TRY to define what I mean by "vendor marketing" and separate it from the "sneaky marketing practices" described in the AUP. I'm sure there will be situations that arise which we'll have to deal with on an individual basis, but the guidelines will be a start. They'll be simple and straightforward. Until they are posted, carry on as usual. Another thing I'll clarify is the posting of finished pens by vendors in SOYP, and the mention of material in a post there (such as, here's a pen I made with a blank from xyz...) [hint - both will be allowed, as now]
My goal with the guidelines will be to provide an acceptable means to allow tasteful and tolerable vendor research. Anyone who thinks this vote means we're going to have a free-for-all of "would you buy this" and "do you want me to make this" should not worry. No matter whether this is confined to its own forum or allowed generally, this does not mean the vendors are going to have free run. We want to help them help us, but the IAP does not exist for vendors to profit from us. It exists for the purpose of sharing and education, and allowing the "necessary" amount of vendor research will help educate them as to our wants and needs.
Thanks for all your comments and your vote. I think this will clarify an issue that is important to our community.
LEAP
Member
Wow, I go away for a week and come back to find this. I'm not going to comment on the subject on hand only Thank Jeff for putting up with all of us and running the best forum around. I'm raising two kids and putting up with their mood swings and bickering is a challenge at times. How you do it with thousands of kids playing in your yard is beyond me. So GOOD ON YA!!! Thanks again for providing us with a safe place to play.
toddlajoie
Member
Well, I missed the show, and the poll, but I'll give a +1 to this...
I'll keep my eyes open for that "other" poll to show up....
I'll keep my eyes open for that "other" poll to show up....
glycerine
Member
I agree with this. It sounds like a good idea to me. A daily post minimum would help. I noticed that some members were starting to complain about Phillywoods posts on all the different wood types, so I imagine tons of "market research" posts would have the same effect. (Not saying that I personally had a problem with Phillywoods posts, just noticed that others did.)
Just an update... I've written the first draft of the vendor marketing guidelines and released that to the management team for comments. I hope to have comments back and make the necessary tweaks within a week. The guidelines will then be added to the AUP and become "official."
Thanks all for your patience.
Thanks all for your patience.
Tanner
Member
I'm fine with market research even in the SOYP section. Sometimes I see a pen made from a blank I never would have purchased unless I saw the finished product. We all ask, hey where did you get that blank, and it ends up it's just a regular blank at one of the vendor web sites. Turned down to size and put on a pen, it looks awesome. I like seeing new blank colors or inlays in the SOYP section. It gives me an idea of what I may be capable of making.
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Gin N' Tonic
Member
Must be one heck of a long week? What calendar are you using? Let me see........you posted this on 9/7/2010 and today is 10/23/2010?? Oh, I got it; September 7th was a Tuesday and October 23rd is a Saturday so I guess a week has not gone by yet?
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