Picked up a Table Saw - What blade should I use for segmenting (bowls & pens)?

[jrista]

I picked up a Rigid portable table saw a couple months ago. The price dropped, and it was only about $500, and I have needed a table saw for a multitude of things. I have used it for some construction work, repairs on my house and the like, but I'm also primarily going to use it for woodworking over the long run. I suspect the blade that came with it is not ideal...it may have a very slight warp, and I don't think it really cuts all that well in general.

So, I'm curious, what kind of blade would you guys recommend for woodwork? Mostly, I suspect I'll be cutting segments for segmented bowls and segmented pens. Maybe other segmented pieces (I'm into making Christmas ornaments right now, and I could see making a bunch with segmented blanks!) Anyway, I don't know a whole lot about saw blades. I also have a 10" miter saw, which I did replace the blade on (which was an improvement). I have a higher tooth count on that one, and I generally take my time with cuts, but I'm curious what kind of blade you guys would generally recommend for that as well.

Also, curious...do you guys generally use a different kind of blade for ripping vs. crosscutting on a table saw? With my bandsaw I use a lower tooth count, wider blade for ripping. Wondering if it matters the same on a tablesaw...the speed of the blade is so much higher with the table saw, and if I ripped, it likely wouldn't be particularly long boards (this thing doesn't have that much of a table.)

 

[derekdd]

I've have a Rikon contractor's saw that was on sale from Woodcraft a couple years back. Bought a replacement fence (Vega) because the stock one sucked. Bought some outfeed stands for it, also. Works great now.

I use a Diablo (division of Freud) rip blade mostly. I do have a finer blade for crosscutting with no tear out but mostly am ripping. Have a dado stack, also but only use that when making boxes.

 

[jttheclockman]

https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...0C5E8A40224F5CE31E7D0C5E8A40224F5CE&FORM=VIRE

Many good videos on the utube that explains saw blades of any kind. You are asking 2 different questions. The use of proper blade for type of cutting you are doing is what will determine the quality of cut. There are special blades for all kinds of wood working. You also have to ask are you doing cabinet grade work or rough construction type work. If later than a combination blade is the way to go. If doing fine cabinet work then a specific blade for both type of cutting ( ripping and cross cutting is needed ) and also type of material being cut because hardwoods VS plywood's need different blades. The other question you are asking is what blade for segmenting. Again much goes into the choice. Thin kerf for sure but will a 7-1/4" blade be better because thinnest blade you can use on a full size tablesaw or can you use a 3/32" blade. You want a crosscut blade because most your cuts will be across grains. You want one with many teeth 60 to 90. You want good quality. I like the Freud diablo line. They are good quality and will not break the bank.

 

[carlmorrell]

I have thin kerf blades that I no longer use. I don't like to take the time to switch them out, I have a Forrest 10" 40 tooth ATB carbide and it is just a great blade for general woodworking. I have two, I think they are called Woodworker II, bought many years ago. Once they get buildup, clean them!

 

[jrista]

I've have a Rikon contractor's saw that was on sale from Woodcraft a couple years back. Bought a replacement fence (Vega) because the stock one sucked. Bought some outfeed stands for it, also. Works great now.

I use a Diablo (division of Freud) rip blade mostly. I do have a finer blade for crosscutting with no tear out but mostly am ripping. Have a dado stack, also but only use that when making boxes.

Thanks for the not on Diablo. That is the type of blade I picked up to replace the stock blade on my miter saw, which has a finer set of teeth. It seems to work well, although I've done more construction work with it lately.

I assume you use the dado blade to cut tenons or joint fingers?

 

[jrista]

https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...0C5E8A40224F5CE31E7D0C5E8A40224F5CE&FORM=VIRE

Many good videos on the utube that explains saw blades of any kind. You are asking 2 different questions. The use of proper blade for type of cutting you are doing is what will determine the quality of cut. There are special blades for all kinds of wood working. You also have to ask are you doing cabinet grade work or rough construction type work. If later than a combination blade is the way to go. If doing fine cabinet work then a specific blade for both type of cutting ( ripping and cross cutting is needed ) and also type of material being cut because hardwoods VS plywood's need different blades. The other question you are asking is what blade for segmenting. Again much goes into the choice. Thin kerf for sure but will a 7-1/4" blade be better because thinnest blade you can use on a full size tablesaw or can you use a 3/32" blade. You want a crosscut blade because most your cuts will be across grains. You want one with many teeth 60 to 90. You want good quality. I like the Freud diablo line. They are good quality and will not break the bank.

Oh yeah, I've been watching videos. Watched a bunch when I got the saw, and went through all the tuneup exercises and all that. I tuned the blade, riving knife, fence, angle and depth adjustments, etc.

There are a lot of opinions out there on blades (on everything), brand loyalties etc. and sometimes it can be tough to sort through all of them, hence the thread. I like to hear from forum members as well, what they think...and I can chat and talk things through in ways not usually possible with a video.

Freud Diablo has certainly bubbled to the top as one of the most recommended. Twice here now, and also in some of the better videos.

You mentioned something that is interesting, that I hadn't seen in any videos though: Using a 7-1/4" blade, instead of say a 10" blade I'm assuming? So, my table allows me to get ~3.5" height out of the blade. I am not sure what pro tables can do, but this one probably wouldn't allow much to be done if I could only get about 3/4" of height out of the blade?

FWIW, the blade that came with the saw is a 10" 36T carbide tipped blade. Its worked fine for the construction stuff I've been doing, but I'm nearing completion with all of that, and will be getting into woodworking with it. Two key use cases in the short term, since you asked:

* Pen segmenting (probably in combination with the bandsaw...bandsaw kerf is so much smaller)
* Pen Box crafting

The box crafting has been long coming. I started trying to do some of that on the bandsaw, but it just doesn't produce the super smooth kind of cuts that a tablesaw can. I'll be using the bandsaw to make bandsaw boxes some time next year, so for now I'm switching to the table saw for pen boxes. Just something I have wanted to get into, to provide another unique aspect to my work, rather than just using ready-made pen boxes. I have some unique ideas to apply to them as well. Probably only for higher end pens, since they won't exactly be cheap. Its also kind of a small way to start getting into something other than turning with my woodworking, that I hope will expand out into more of other kinds of woodworking.

 

[jrista]

I have thin kerf blades that I no longer use. I don't like to take the time to switch them out, I have a Forrest 10" 40 tooth ATB carbide and it is just a great blade for general woodworking. I have two, I think they are called Woodworker II, bought many years ago. Once they get buildup, clean them!

You mention cleaning the blades. No doubt the miter saw blade needs this, and the table saw probably will once I'm done with the construction stuff. A fair amount of pine, some western red cedar, and some primed molded wood for window trimming and such. I'm quite sure all of that is leaving grime on the blades.

I haven't looked into this at all yet, so I'm curious what people do to clean their blades? What solutions work best? Acetone? Or is there something better for cleaning a blade for a tablesaw, miter saw, etc?

Also now that I'm thinking about it...after cleaning, does anyone do anything to condition them? I use johnsons paste wax on pretty much every surface I need a smooth glide on, and that I want to protect from the elements. My lathe ways, bandsaw and drill press tables, etc. Is it ok to use something like that ON a saw blade? Hadn't considered that before, but maybe it would limit how much/quickly the blade picks up grime...

 

[leehljp]

Cleaning blades: I use simple green. I let it soak for an hour or so and then scrub with a soft cloth. One key to cleaning is to not let it build up very much before cleaning. There are lots of good cleaners around. I personally stay away from harsh chemicals in cleaning saw blades.

 

[jttheclockman]

Jon I believe this topic has come up a few times here so maybe a search through old threads is needed. But you opened a can of worms that will take far longer than any of your posts that you write. I will throw some basic things in my response and others can add to them. First and foremost please please do not include bandsaw blades in this topic. Whole other story. You ask what is a good blade for segmenting and making small boxes and we will stick there. The idea of buying any of the big name saw blade for what you want to do is rediculous. You will pay over twice as much as a Freud blade. They are cabinet building full size 3HP saw blades because of their size. There are a ton of blade teeth configurations to choose from so you can buy specialty blades that will give you glue edge joints in any material you want to use. Teeth count is important. No a chop saw blade is not the same as a tablesaw blade and yet you see them used all the time. Again another story for another time. I mentioned 7-1/4" blades are used for segmenting work but obviously if you use a sled they will not work because of depth. Thin kerf blades would be my suggestion for you and the kerf is usually 3/32". There is a 1/16" blade out there but not recommended for hard woods. The more teeth the smoother the cut but comes with a downside too. Material being cut. I like to use a 60 tooth ATB Freud line blade. I have many other different freud blades if I see any need to change. freud has a teflon coating on the plate of the blade so no need to do anything for lubricating. never want to wax the teeth. Any contamination impelled into wood fiber will effect finishes.

As far as cleaning and pay attention to this because your life can depend on it. You do not want to ever use anything caustic such as oven cleaners on cleaning carbide blades because it will break down the brazing of the carbide to the steel blade and the teeth can come loose and fly off. The brazing can be made up of various ingredients depending on the blade and also the manufactories. There are many tool blade cleaners that are safe made by tool manufacturers. I have used Trends Tool and bit cleaner in the past because I use Trend products for sharpening tools and use it to clean my router bits and it is safe and non caustic. But many times when just cleaning saw blades I too will use simple green and a soft bristle brush to clean teeth. Now I caution you if you use this do not do not let sit in solution more than necessary. It too will break down the brazing of the carbide. Especially if using full strength. I usually use spray bottle and place on some paper plates and spray both sides of blade. after about 20 minutes I will take brush and clean teeth. If there is left over pitch I will hit it again. after I use a wet water down rag to get rid of residue from cleaner, I will wipe dry. The key here is to watch how the blade is cutting. if it is slowing down it just needs to be cleaned and the less pitch and resin you let build on the blade the easier to keep clean. After you clean the blade just take a few seconds and see if there any visible hairline cracks in blade body or by the teeth. if all looks good replace and have at it. Good luck.

 

[jrista]

@jttheclockman So, I'm honestly not sure what a "big name" saw blade would be. What are the big names? Is Freud a big name, or just a common "quality" brand? I am also not sure what a chop saw blade is.

Thanks for the info about potentially eating away the brazing of the teeth... The old blade on my miter saw (which I bought used) was missing a couple of teeth! Main reason I replaced it. With a miter saw at least the blade would throw the teeth away from you if it lost one...but a table saw would throw them right at you! I am generally always concerned about the potential and often unknown side effects of cleaning solutions, which is why I asked.

 

[jttheclockman]

Big name blades; Forrest blades, Ridge Carbide, Tenyru Gold Medal are big $$$ blades and many say they are big $$$ is because of all the advertising they do. Freud is a great line of saw blades and they are above average blades. They have a great variety of blades as I mentioned and again they will not break the bank. They can be sharpened but not as many times as the bigger names because the carbide is not as thick. They will get the job done.

Chop saw blades are mitersaws. weather a sliding mitersaw or a straight chop saw as we call them. Chop saw blades have a negative rake to them and that is because they will climb when cut if you use a straight tablesaw blade in them. You get away with tablesaw blades in sliding miter saws.

 

[rherrell]

You can't go wrong with Freud, good quality at a fair price, it's the only brand I buy.

 

[KenB259]

I seen these and decided to give them a try, after reading positive reviews. They are sharp and cut clean, however they are not as stiff as Freud's. I wouldn't recommend these from CMT.

 

[derekdd]

Thanks for the not on Diablo. That is the type of blade I picked up to replace the stock blade on my miter saw, which has a finer set of teeth. It seems to work well, although I've done more construction work with it lately.

I assume you use the dado blade to cut tenons or joint fingers?

Indeed I do. Tenons, lap and rabbet joints mostly.

 

[jrista]

I did some more research, and came across the term High-ATB, which I guess is a steeper angle on the teeth. From what I read, this is supposed to lessen tearout and improve fine cutting on hardwoods. I guess they have a shorter lifespan than normal ATB blades though. Curious what people here think?

Anyway, found this blade:

Freud 10in Thin Kerf Ultimate Cut-Off Blade with Perma-SHIELD Coating

Freud 10in Thin Kerf Ultimate Cut-Off Blade with Perma-SHIELD Coating - LU74R010

www.acmetools.com

Seems pretty darn good. The kerf is a little less than 3/32 of an inch, which is not as thin as 1/16th, but still some of the thinnest I've been able to find. I only found one 1/16" kerf blade, and yeah, it is ridiculously thin...

This blade is around $70, which seems a bit expensive? It is an 80T blade, which I think would make for pretty darn smooth cross-cuts, but would a 60T blade be better?

 

[jttheclockman]

I did some more research, and came across the term High-ATB, which I guess is a steeper angle on the teeth. From what I read, this is supposed to lessen tearout and improve fine cutting on hardwoods. I guess they have a shorter lifespan than normal ATB blades though. Curious what people here think?

Anyway, found this blade:

Freud 10in Thin Kerf Ultimate Cut-Off Blade with Perma-SHIELD Coating

Freud 10in Thin Kerf Ultimate Cut-Off Blade with Perma-SHIELD Coating - LU74R010

www.acmetools.com

Seems pretty darn good. The kerf is a little less than 3/32 of an inch, which is not as thin as 1/16th, but still some of the thinnest I've been able to find. I only found one 1/16" kerf blade, and yeah, it is ridiculously thin...

This blade is around $70, which seems a bit expensive? It is an 80T blade, which I think would make for pretty darn smooth cross-cuts, but would a 60T blade be better?

You do know this is a mitersaw blade right?? Like I told you mitersaw blades are different than tablesaw blades because they have a negative rake and prevent climb when cutting. They use them for cutting plexiglass too.

HI ATB blade is not needed unless you are doing alot of melamine or plywood cutting where splintering is a no go. Hardwoods will dull that blade quicker. Especially if ripping with it.

Here is some info
https://www.toolboxtoday.com/the-types-of-saw-blade-teeth/

 

[jrista]

You do know this is a mitersaw blade right?? Like I told you mitersaw blades are different than tablesaw blades because they have a negative rake and prevent climb when cutting. They use them for cutting plexiglass too.

HI ATB blade is not needed unless you are doing alot of melamine or plywood cutting where splintering is a no go. Hardwoods will dull that blade quicker. Especially if ripping with it.

Here is some info
https://www.toolboxtoday.com/the-types-of-saw-blade-teeth/

So, i understand its a crosscut blade... I don't know how you know its a miter saw blade. When I look these things up, they are generally called "circular saw blades", and they never seem to specify table saw, miter saw, etc.

The tooth type is ATB, as far as I can tell. I don't think that ATB means miter saw, does it? You can get table saw blades with ATB, HiATB, etc. as far as I could tell?

EDIT:

Oh, I guess I do see labels ON some of the blades, that say things like "Ideal for Miter, Side Miter and Table Saws" .... But, they say table saws as well as miter. Wouldn't a cross-cut blade just be a cross-cut blade, regardless of whether its used on a miter saw or table saw? Isn't an ATB tooth configuration just an ATB tooth configuration?

At least with Diablo blades, it looks like their "wood" blades all seem to say the same thing: "Ideal for miter, side miter and table saws"

 

[jttheclockman]

So, i understand its a crosscut blade... I don't know how you know its a miter saw blade. When I look these things up, they are generally called "circular saw blades", and they never seem to specify table saw, miter saw, etc.

The tooth type is ATB, as far as I can tell. I don't think that ATB means miter saw, does it? You can get table saw blades with ATB, HiATB, etc. as far as I could tell?

EDIT:

Oh, I guess I do see labels ON some of the blades, that say things like "Ideal for Miter, Side Miter and Table Saws" .... But, they say table saws as well as miter. Wouldn't a cross-cut blade just be a cross-cut blade, regardless of whether its used on a miter saw or table saw? Isn't an ATB tooth configuration just an ATB tooth configuration?

At least with Diablo blades, it looks like their "wood" blades all seem to say the same thing: "Ideal for miter, side miter and table saws"

Look at the teeth and see how they lean back slightly. That is called a negative rake blade. They also make zero rake blades. A tablesaw blade will say crosscut not cutoff, or it is a rip blade . It will have a positive rake. Negative rake blades are used on mitersaws and radial arm saws because they are safer. remember I called a mitersaw a chop saw, they are also called cutoff saws. A tablesaw is never called either. Yes many times the Freud line will have info on the blade or the packaging telling you what they are meant for. The negative rake blade can be used on a tablesaw but many times is used to cut plexiglass and nonferrous metals like aluminum. They will cut slower and require more effort to push materials through . On a mitersaw or radial arm saw the blade is moving and not the wood. so the effort is not needed. You bring up circular saw and that is different than a tablesaw and a mitersaw because you are using a fixed blade but are moving it into the wood so you want a positive hook blade. Can all these blades be interchangeable, yes they can but will perform differently on each tool. Again as you started this I told you there is many different types blades out there and most are specialty blades. An ATB (alternate top bevel ) is the tooth configuration . The HI ATB blades have steeper angle teeth that cut at a different angle into the wood but are prone to dull faster because of how the teeth are sharpened. The steeper the angle a blades teeth are the more it grabs the wood. There are blades for all kinds of cutting. For what you want a good 80 tooth crosscut ATB blade is the way to go for a fine cut. they run around $70. A 60 tooth blade will also do a great job. They are a little less$$ If I have to make real precise cuts I go with the 80. I use Freud. I also recommend thin kerf blades.

60 tooth
https://www.acmetools.com/freud-10-...-lu88r010/008925301707.html#SpecificationsPDP

Amazon is a good place to buy

https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Finish-Crosscut-Blade-LU88R010/dp/B0000225UI

 

[randyrls]

Thanks for mentioning this. I am ramping up for Christmas and noticed my TS blade is not cutting as cleanly as I'd like. So time to Clean Blade.

 

[leehljp]

Here is a comparison of blades between Miter saw and Table saw:

Can I use a table saw blade in my miter saw?

Is it okay to use the old tablesaw blade— which was fairly new itself—to replace my worn out mitersaw blade? It appears to fit, but I don’t want to do anything unsafe.

www.woodmagazine.com

Miter saw Blades with negative rake lessen the chances of picking the board upwards as it cuts. This is because the blade is on top and cutting backwards from the cutter.

The short answer: On a Table saw - a negative rake would increase the chances of a kickback because it would tend to have more lift the board, where as a positive rake would be pulling the pulling the board downward on the cutting stroke.

 

[randyrls]

Look at the teeth and see how they lean back slightly. That is called a negative rake blade. They also make zero rake blades. A tablesaw blade will say crosscut not cutoff, or it is a rip blade . It will have a positive rake. Negative rake blades are used on mitersaws and radial arm saws because they are safer. remember I called a mitersaw a chop saw, they are also called cutoff saws. A

John; This is absolutely true! I had a slide miter saw that needed the blade sharpened. Despite putting explicit instructions that this is negative rake saw blade the guy put a positive rake on the teeth. That saw bucked like a bronco! I had to replace the blade because there was not enough carbide to put the rake back.

 

[jttheclockman]

With so many different style blades and teeth configurations, it is imperative to find a good place to have blades sharpened. They have to have the proper equipment to duplicate the shapes of the original teeth. They have to be able to grind consistently and accurately or else they will throw the blade off balance. They could damage the brazing and the teeth can become projectiles. I had such a place and recently he never reopened after covid and that was disappointing. So I would have to do a search for a new place when I need blades sharpened. I save a bunch of blades to get sharpened at one time and have to say I have quite afew.

Hank backs up my response to you Jon with his link and comments. How a blade is presented to the wood determines the configuration of a blade. This is why in another post here I said many people use a tablesaw blade in a miter saw and yes have been lucky to get away with it but it is not safe. they make different blades for reasons or else they would make far less blades and just interchange them. The same goes for bandsaws. That is why I said do not bring bandsaws into this discussion. Good luck.

 

[jrista]

Thanks for the details, guys!! This is why I ask these questions.

I am seeing the hook angle specified on some of these now. Interestingly, its not specified on all...on some, like Diablo? I am now a bit wary of the Diablo blades I was looking at, as they all say "Miter, side miter and table saw", and as far as I can tell they don't specify hook angle. I did find a couple of Frued blades though that are ATB, thin kerf, positive hook angle. They are labeled "crosscut" rather than "cutoff"...

I am not quite sure what positive hook means though. Positive hook is what as far as rake? Negative, or positive?

 

[jttheclockman]

https://tungstenandtool.com/blogs/news/what-is-rake

Not sure of any more I can tell you. Hook and rake are the same terms. A rip blade will have a greater hook or rake angle than a crosscut blade.

Here is a very good article to help with differences between Miter saw and tablesaw blades.
https://woodtoolsintro.com/table-saw-blade-vs-miter-saw-blade/

By the way it is not a side mitersaw, it is a sliding mitersaw

 

[jrista]

https://tungstenandtool.com/blogs/news/what-is-rake

View attachment 363197
Not sure of any more I can tell you. Hook and rake are the same terms. A rip blade will have a greater hook or rake angle than a crosscut blade.

Here is a very good article to help with differences between Miter saw and tablesaw blades.
https://woodtoolsintro.com/table-saw-blade-vs-miter-saw-blade/

By the way it is not a side mitersaw, it is a sliding mitersaw

Ok. Thanks, I understand now. There were product descriptions that said "positive hook angle" when the teeth themselves looked negative. I don't know if the photos were wrong, or the descriptions.

I have a ton of floaters in my eyes these days, which has really messed with my vision. I was reading the description off of small pictures of Diablo blades, and I guess I just couldn't resolve the wording well.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ok. Thanks, I understand now. There were product descriptions that said "positive hook angle" when the teeth themselves looked negative. I don't know if the photos were wrong, or the descriptions.

I have a ton of floaters in my eyes these days, which has really messed with my vision. I was reading the description off of small pictures of Diablo blades, and I guess I just couldn't resolve the wording well.

Floaters in the eye. Just developed one last year and it is annoying. Bothers me most when I am in certain light.

 

[jrista]

Floaters in the eye. Just developed one last year and it is annoying. Bothers me most when I am in certain light.

My eyes are full of them. They always catch the light now, all the time... Its really starting to damage my eyesight...

 

[jrista]

60 tooth
https://www.acmetools.com/freud-10-...-lu88r010/008925301707.html#SpecificationsPDP

Amazon is a good place to buy

https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Finish-Crosscut-Blade-LU88R010/dp/B0000225UI

Alright. I picked up one of these guys. Thanks for the recommendation, @jttheclockman! Looking forward to cutting with this. Decided not to try a 7-1/4" 1/16 kerf blade yet. I may give that a try in the future, but for now a 3/32" kerf will do. I'm still learning the ropes here.

I'm working on a crosscut sled, which should take care of the zero-clearance factor. I'll be making it such that I can create and swap out/replace my own plates, for different kinds of cuts (i.e. angled if necessary). Hopefully that will get me rolling with segmenting.