Pen refill reveal too large on Sierra/Gatsby

[RunnerVince]

Hi all,

I'm wanting to start doing pens that are more appealing to women in general. I really like the look of the Sierra/Gatsby. However, the ones I've done, in the finished pen, the ink refill protudes an excessive amount when extended. Not so much as to affect use, but in my mind it looks bad. We'll call it a thin 1/4" protruding from the nib.

I've had this happen on a number of kits. At first I thought it was something I was doing, but even when I was careful not to shorten the tube at all when squaring the blank, the problem occurred. I know some of the kits I got were from Wood World of Texas, but I don't recall where the others came from. Nor do I remember whether they were Gatsby or Sierra or another of the 50 name variations out there.

So my questions are as follows:

• Am I doing something wrong to actually cause the issue?
• Have others experienced this?
• Are there kits of this general style that don't have this issue?
• Is this something that actually affects whether a customer buys the pen, or am I being too OCD?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[jrista]

Just curious, have you measured the length of the tube before gluing in, then measured the length of the squared blank? These particular kits, don't really have much tolerance, and it doesn't take much removal of material on the blank to affect how much the refill protrudes. You could take a small fraction of a millimeter off each end of the blank...too little to really notice on each end, but in total, just that little bit can result in the refill tip noticeably protruding more than it should.

I've made quite a lot of these kinds of pens (Seirra, Gatsby, Wall Street II, etc.), I guess you could call them my staple so far, and I've just found that the tolerance across the brands seems to be extremely tight. If I don't sand the wood right down to the end of the brass tube, then I find the refill visibly looks like its not protruding enough, and just a slight bit too much off of each end of the blank, and it looks like it protrudes too much. I've just taken to being extremely careful when I get close to the brass, to just sand it down ever so slightly until the disc just barely touches the tube. Then I stop. Sometimes it can be a lengthy process, getting there, depending on the wood, but if you don't want the refill looking like its protruding too much (which, can really be only half a millimeter more than it should!) then just take some extra time on that part of the process.

As for whether it would affect anyone buying the pen... I see SO many flaws in all of my own pens. TONS. I can't ever seem to get that "perfect" result. I spend a lot of time on my pens, too, and there always seems to be something...less than perfect refill fit, or, just not quite the perfect finish in all ways (either the wood is soaking up more finish than I want, and there are very slight dull spots, or on resins I just haven't achieved the perfect gloss, or there is some super tiny knick in the plating of some part, etc.) So far, though, not one single person I've shown pens to or sold pens to, has ever noticed a thing...

I think I'm just an OCD perfectionist and I see stuff no normal human would. The only people I think would notice these little things, are those pen collector types who are looking for perfection in a high quality pen... I've met a few people who say they know such individuals, but I've never met such a pen connoisseur in person myself, or sold a pen to one. I strive for that level of quality in every pen I make...I honestly don't know if I meet that particular bar or not, though. I will say, I am never quite satisfied with my pens, but, everyone who sees them seems to think they are "perfect" according to their standards.

 

[magpens]

@RunnerVince
You say : "Nor do I remember whether they were Gatsby or Sierra or another of the 50 name variations out there."
You also say : "I think I'm just an OCD perfectionist . . "
Also, you do NOT say what TYPE of Sierra/Gatsby/other kit you are concerned about.
The differences between a Sierra TWIST and a Sierra CLICK are very significant.

My experiences with other pen makers here on IAP is that the majority of them tend to be OCD types . . . and that's not a bad thing.
The very fact that some people are attracted to pen-making is a real reflection of their OCD tendencies.

There are so many "little things" that go into making a pen attractive . . and even making a functional pen from a kit . . that one could make a case for saying that ONLY OCD-TYPES SHOULD TAKE UP PEN-MAKING.

It would take at least a pamphlet-length document to even begin to address the issues that you raise in your opening post above.

Firstly, you absolutely MUST take notice of whether you are handling the components for a Sierra, a Gatsby, or other of the similar kits.

Each kit (Sierra, Gatsby, etc.) has some differences/quirks in appearance/behaviour/operation that quickly become noticeable.

Yes, there are similarities, but . . . IMHO . . . it is not possible to deal with problems without knowing specifically what kit you are referring to.

As an example, you do not say whether you are dealing with the TWIST or CLICK versions of the Sierra . . . as one of your BRANDS of kits.
There is a very significant difference in the problems you can encounter between the two versions . . . TWIST or CLICK.

Also, you use terms like "small fraction of a millimeter" and "a thin 1/4" protruding from the nib" . . . there is a huge difference IMHO.
You need to talk in terms that more closely tell us the level of precision that you are striving for.

You do need a pair of machinist's vernier calipers to be successful in the making of pens and diagnosing some problems that occur.
If we stick to thousandths of an inch as our units of measurement, then 1/4" amounts to 250 thousandths of an inch, whereas one millimeter amounts to about 40 thousandths. So what is meant by a small fraction of a millimeter ?

In making a physically attractive looking pen, it is often necessary to be concerned about matching dimensions of components to within about 2 thousandths of an inch in some . . . but not all . . . considerations.

The making and assembly of a kit pen is very often about matching the dimensions of the kit components that you make or modify to just that sort of tolerance in order to achieve the best possible appearance and functionality in all respects.

Of course, you CAN achieve an "acceptable" result without full attention to this kind of precision and accuracy.
I know that it might be hard for you to specify your goals but you must try to do so to a degree that more nearly represents your problems.
For us to interpret your post and write pamphlet-length responses is not going to be well-received in this thread.

Let me try to address one issue. The brass tube that Berea supplies with their SIERRA TWIST pen kit has a length that is very accurately controlled, probably to an accuracy of better that 0.001" from one kit package to another IDENTICAL kit package. I believe that the same is true for the SIERRA CLICK pen kit. But, between the two types of kits, TWIST and CLICK, if you machine your pen blanks to a difference in length of 0.010" you will notice that difference with the CLICK kits but you will be unlikely to notice the difference for the TWIST kits.
That fact is just a factor related to the internal mechanisms and their differences between the TWIST and CLICK.

One additional issue . . . the differences in the protrusion of your refill for differences in brass tube lengths (caused by you not by BEREA) . . .
If you are making CLICK pens, you can easily cause differences in brass tube lengths from one pen to another of 0.010" or considerably more.
And even a difference from pen to pen of only 0.010" can be noticeable.

You can easily cause such differences if you are not EXTREMELY careful in your trimming the blanks. You know how you glue the blank onto the brass tube. Usually, you start with a blank that is a LITTLE bit longer than the brass tube and then you TRIM the blank down . . . IDEALLY to the EXACT length of the brass tube that the blank surrounds. Well HOW EXACT is "EXACT" ? We are told to trim carefully until the exposed end of the brass tube JUST BEGINS TO SHOW A HIGHLY GLOSSY BRASS TONE. Can you see the easy possibility of OVER-TRIMMING thereby causing the blank to be a TINY BIT TOO SHORT with the result that the REFILL WILL PROTRUDE A TINY BIT TOO MUCH ? ? ?

Rather than trimming the blank to length SOLELY by using your lathe and lathe cutting tools, you can get the blank trimmed down to an almost perfect length by doing the LAST BIT OF LENGTH TRIMMING ON A SHEET OF FLAT SANDPAPER and proceeding very carefully and very slowly so as to match the length of the pen blank to the length of the glued-in brass tube . . . . for the example under consideration here.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME . . . I am not trying to be harsh. I am merely trying to point out that there are often several different ways to proceed to your desired goal. You need to think about and keep in mind the alternative methods that are at your disposal.

It often takes a great deal of experience to keep EVERYTHING in mind ALL THE TIME.
ALL OF US ARE CONTINUING TO LEARN . . . ALL THE TIME. . . . and, embarrassing as it is to admit, we ALL MAKE MISTAKES . . . often by forgetting little things that we had previously known about.

EACH KIT PRESENTS ITS OWN CHALLENGES and we must always bear in mind the differences between kits, even though they look alike.

Being an OCD perfectionist is a good quality . . . if not an ESSENTIAL quality . . . when making pens, especially pens from different kits.

And do pay attention to the differences between the kits you use even though they may look very similar.

The length of the brass tube in a pen kit is one of most important dimensions that you must respect and maintain.
It controls the appearance and functionality of your pen.

 

[KenB259]

Hi all,

I'm wanting to start doing pens that are more appealing to women in general. I really like the look of the Sierra/Gatsby. However, the ones I've done, in the finished pen, the ink refill protudes an excessive amount when extended. Not so much as to affect use, but in my mind it looks bad. We'll call it a thin 1/4" protruding from the nib.

I've had this happen on a number of kits. At first I thought it was something I was doing, but even when I was careful not to shorten the tube at all when squaring the blank, the problem occurred. I know some of the kits I got were from Wood World of Texas, but I don't recall where the others came from. Nor do I remember whether they were Gatsby or Sierra or another of the 50 name variations out there.

So my questions are as follows:

• Am I doing something wrong to actually cause the issue?
• Have others experienced this?
• Are there kits of this general style that don't have this issue?
• Is this something that actually affects whether a customer buys the pen, or am I being too OCD?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

If the tip is not extending out of pen when it's closed the. It's fine.

 

[ed4copies]

Mal's answer is comprehensive and accurate,
I will add only a couple things:
1. The sierra twist is completely enclosed and operative without ANY of the parts you have turned, consequently you
CANNOT change the way it operates or it's operational length. (You actually CAN change this but not with any of the parts you are turning)
2. A FINIAL twist DOES depend on length
3. The sierra click tube is longer than the sierra twist--they are NOT interchangeable.

Finally, for the designs that are "tube length critical", you CAN make your own tubes from 10" tubes that are available, then you can accurately control the amount that "sticks out".

 

[jrista]

Mal's answer is comprehensive and accurate,
I will add only a couple things:
1. The sierra twist is completely enclosed and operative without ANY of the parts you have turned, consequently you
CANNOT change the way it operates or it's operational length. (You actually CAN change this but not with any of the parts you are turning)

Finally, for the designs that are "tube length critical", you CAN make your own tubes from 10" tubes that are available, then you can accurately control the amount that "sticks out".

Well, this is interesting...

Then, does that mean, that the length of the protrusion of the refill, is just dependent on the hardware parts of the kit then? That would mean there is a huge amount of variability in these kits...as I've turned a lot now, and there almost always seems to be some issue with them either protruding too much, or too little. Its rare that I seem to get them to protrude just the right amount... Too much seems to be the more common issue...where, when retracted, the tip of the ball is JUST BARELY below the opening in the nib.

EDIT:

And, I may be thinking about another problem with these pens, which is perhaps the issue I was having with tube length. The seam between the nib assembly, and the rest of the pen. Maybe this is where I got fastidious about trimming, as if you trim too much, then you can end up with a notable gap where the two halves of the pen meet.

 

[ed4copies]

FOR THE BODY TWIST STYLE--YES it means you have no control over the mechanics of the pen. Take off the part you
made and everything works exactly the same as it does when you cover the transmission with your turned body.

 

[ed4copies]

MOST of the body twists allow about a quarter inch difference in length with no effect. Crap (usually adhesive) remaining in the tube is the number one reason they don't work smoothly, but it has no effect on the protrusion of the refill end.

 

[1080Wayne]

Jon , some of the variability you see may be due to manufacturing tolerances in refill geometry/length or spring tension .

 

[jcm71]

To shorten the extension length of the refill, take a very sharp drill bit ( start with 1/8 inch and go from there), insert it in the twist mechanism, and by hand shave off the "rubber" insert inside the mechanism. Re assemble and check often. Rinse, repeat until satisfied.

 

[jrista]

Jon , some of the variability you see may be due to manufacturing tolerances in refill geometry/length or spring tension .

Yeah, could be that too. Its highly variable, in my experience.

I checked out a few of these that I've made. I recall now, the trimming issue had to do with the gap where the two halves meet. I have trimmed off too much on a number of occasions. The upper part of the lower assembly fits into the finial, and it will only go in so far before it stops. If you trim off too much of the body of the pen, then there can be a noticeable gap, which I've never liked. I guess its not a huge gap, but, at the right angle, you can see right down to the core of the pen. Again, this is probably an OCD perfectionist thing...but, it's always bugged me.

 

[randyrls]

Vince; I have made pens that blanks are "critical Length" so noted on the printed instructions in my binders. When I see that notation, I check the length very carefully and look at the reveal both extended and retracted. Some kits are also problematic in that the tube length may be off. Before I trim the tube to final length, I check using the technique below.

This file in the Resources section shows how to check the blank length. This shows a two blank twist pen, but the principle is the same.
https://www.penturners.org/resources/adjusting-ink-tip-extension.236/

 

[RunnerVince]

Thank you all for your great replies. My "shop" is outside, and the weather here in Utah has been unusually cold and wet this winter, so I haven't been out since my original post in order to test/measure anything as I made a pen. I did finally get out this week to make a few pens. First, some context. The attached photo shows five pens. From top to bottom, they are:

1. A slimline click (I believe from WW Texas)
2. A Woodcraft Pluma
3. A Sierra/Gatsby-style (can't say which specifically, other than it's a body twist)
4. A slimline comfort
5. A PSI bolt action

The top three all have what, to me, looks like excessive protrusion of the refill. The slimline comfort (#4) is hard to see in the picture, because of the shadow and the rubber cap that I've left on to keep the ink from drying out; it's maybe not got quite enough protrusion, but that's on me. On a slimline/slimline comfort, you can easily control the protrusion by pressing the transmission in less or more, and in this case I went a tad too far. The protrusion on the bolt action looks just right to me.

So back to my original question and the point about me being too OCD. Is the protrusion on the top three pens typical/normal, and is my personal preference just a little out of line with that? Given that I'm seeing that across a variety of pen kits, I'm left to conclude that that's the case.

Does the protrusion on pens 1-3 bother anyone else? Would it keep you from selling that pen?

Some other notes:

The pens I did this week were the Pluma and the Bolt Action. I failed to measure before I did the Pluma, but I pulled the tube from another Pluma kit for comparison. Visually, the length of the tube is identical to the lengths of the two finished barrels. Even compounded across two tubes, that's not enough difference to account for what looks to my eye as the excessive protrusion. Despite using the same process (and care) on both pens when trimming/squaring the blanks, I got perfect (to me) results on the Bolt Action, but too much protrusion on the Pluma. BUT single barrel vs. double barrel, two different kits, how precise is "precise," etc.

@magpens The reason that I didn't take more care to determine which specific model I was having the issue with (aside from just plain not having the information available any longer) is that I've seen it across multiple models and/or brands. I had seen it particularly among pens of a certain look (Gatsby/Sierra). When I see the same problem across models, that tells me that it's either not actually a problem (beyond my own personal hang-ups) or that I'm doing something wrong consistently with all my pens, and the issue is showing up on pens that are particularly sensitive to tube length variations. That said, having specified at least whether I was looking at twist/click and body/finial twist would have been useful. And certainly I will have to keep better track of which models I am buying (which is good sense anyway). I do own several sets of calipers, and use them extensively for turning to diameter. I'll attempt to adjust my process to track tube/barrel length as well. I have to admit that the combination of getting out for the first time in months and it still being in the low 30's temperature-wise did not lend well to me making better observations of my own process this go-around.

@ed4copies Thank you for your observation regarding pens that are operative independently of the turned components. Just thinking about that before turning should be helpful. How WOULD you change the operative length? I've sanded down the plastic cap of the refill before, but I don't like doing that because it puts that work onto the customer when it's time to install a refill, and it could also cause confusion when trying to purchase a refill.

@randyrls I keep a binder of instructions, on which I write notes of any oddities I find or anything that needs to be turned to a critical dimension. Sometimes the manufacturers' instructions are really terrible when it comes to being able to differentiate similar-looking parts, so that's something I always write down. The instructions for the slimline click pens I bought didn't really show which end of the upper barrel some parts went into, for example. The first time I assembled, it took me ages to figure it out. Forgot to write it down, and then had to figure it out again. This time I wrote it down, but the sheet didn't make it back into my binder, so I had to figure it out a third time, months later. Here's hoping my binder never goes missing! Thank you also for the link to the IAP library resource. I will read that once I'm done with this post!

 

[randyrls]

1. A slimline comfort
2. A PSI bolt action

The top three all have what, to me, looks like excessive protrusion of the refill. The slimline comfort (#4) is hard to see in the picture, because of the shadow and the rubber cap that I've left on to keep the ink from drying out; it's maybe not got quite enough protrusion, but that's on me. On a slimline/slimline comfort, you can easily control the protrusion by pressing the transmission in less or more, and in this case I went a tad too far. The protrusion on the bolt action looks just right to me.


Does the protrusion on pens 1-3 bother anyone else? Would it keep you from selling that pen?

Nop; I prefer a slightly longer extension. As long (pun intended) as the tip retracts fully into the nib, it is good. I have taken a finished pen and laid it on paper on a hard surface where I can "sight" along the pen. Then I try various angles to see where the pen starts writing.

 

[luckyscroller788]

To me, pens 1-3 are perfect, as well as number 5 . You might just need a little therapy. Nice turnings!

 

[RunnerVince]

You might just need a little therapy.

Well this was a given.

I'll have to stick pen #4 back in the vice and push the transmission in a touch more. At the time I was assembling, I was absolutely done with that pen. It was an experiment with ebonizing oak that gave me no end of frustration.

 

[Smokey S]

As alternative pen kit to the Sierra kit, you might want to check out the Diamond Knurl pen kit from Ed at Exotic Blanks.
just saying………S