Classifieds Overhaul

[IPD_Mrs]

Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:
Rules:

• You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.

What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc. Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information? This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense). Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.

• Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
• You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.

What constitutes "any business relationship"? Does money or product have to exchange hands? Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project? IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ... financial planning? etc.

You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.

So if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post? IE: Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has????

- really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor). If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?


Thanks for clarifications.
Linda

 

[jeff]

Comments in color...

I've been painting a bedroom after reading these rules this morning, so have had plenty of free brain power to ponder this.

These comments are strictly from a BUYERS perspective, and what provides value to me as a consumer. I've never sold anything on this site, but I have bought things.

1)

If a post offers mutiple items for sale, but does not allow "claiming posts" then the from a comsumer's perspective this is worthless, and I will not buy from any such posts. Claiming posts are a service to the buyer so we all don't waste our time in a back and forth trying to figure out what is available.

I agree. If sellers wish to offer the convenience of claiming posts, they should use the Premium Classifieds forum.

I will never try to buy anything from a multi item post in the Classified forum. If the rules stay as is, seller should simply recognize that I am likely not the only one with this attitude and simply avoid this forum.

2)

There does not seem to be a provision for simply advertising, then conducting business at the vendors site. I find particulary valuable posts that items are now "in stock" or that a new item has arrived and where to go to buy it, or a special offer like free shipping or a discount. No need for any follow up posts - just let the add run for 2 weeks. I suggest that this is a better use of "classifieds" and suggest the classified forum be converted to this type of usage, allowing 2 bumps in the 2 week run time.

I don't see why it could not be used as such with the rules as-is. There is no requirement for bumping. A seller could place an ad and just let it go. "Now in stock" posts put money in a seller's pocket, so it seems reasonable that they'd appreciate a way to invest a small amount of money and get that word out.

3)

I also think there is a loss of value to buyers by the complete prohibition on announcing advaced sales offers. I think this has value to many people, but without this site there is no way for us to convieniently hear about such offers. I suggest these be allowed in an "anouncement only" manner consistent with number 2 above, with all the business to subsequently be conducted on the vendor's site.

I don't see why we could not allow "announcement" posts in Classifieds. That would require a small wording change.

 

[RyanNJ]

The way i see this is that the small turner, college student like me doing this for fun is going to lose out. I will lose the ability to sell items that i dont need and along the same lines i will not be able to post when i run out of something and need to get just one with out paying shipping from a supplier when someone on the site may have an extra they havent touched in a year. I really feel like this is going to raise the price of blanks when someone pays to post them for sale. Ultimately the reason i came to this site is not only because of the vast knowledge from everyone but also because of the classifieds section where i could easily post things for sale, i see this forcing me to look else where for my products which hurts us all. Also items in lots must sell in lots not individually that is the part that hurts me because most of my purchases were individual items

I am doing this as a hobby the very few pens i actually sell go right back into materials and the changes that have occurred will hurt me. Some people here may have deep enough pockets to participate like this but i make my contribution to the site every bash, im sure its no where near what some people send it but it is what i can afford.

I really dont know what else to say except i am deeply saddened by the decision to change to this format, i would be more willing to pay a fee to use the site as a whole for the year than to pay per post to use one section.

 

[NewLondon88]

I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:

 

[jeff]

Comment & Questions from Cheers/Veers forum:
Rules:

• You may not comment on the same vendor more than once per year.

What if you have made a great comment with a vendor based on your first experience with said company and then the next time and the next (until you give up) you are getting LOUSY treatment/products etc. Don't we as a community want that kind of follow up information? This will allow the unscrupulous individuals that exist in any community to take advantage of more members than if folks are allowed to post their experiences on a more frequent basis (not weekly, or even monthly perhpas but once a quarter would make some sense). Alternatively I guess I would be holding my thoughts about any vendor until I have done business with that person several times - which also hurts the community since new members will be put in a position where it will be nearly impossible to build any type of reputation or suppport in a timely fashion.

• Do not advertise for another vendor in a review about a different vendor.
• You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor with which you have any business relationship other than as customer.

What constitutes "any business relationship"? Does money or product have to exchange hands? Does it count as a business relationship if you are consulting with a vendor to assist them in a project? IE someone helping a vendor set up a shopping cart ... financial planning? etc.

You may not start a thread or comment in a thread discussing a vendor if you are legally related to, or cohabitate with, any employee of, officer of, or supplier to that business.

So if you have a "relationship" with a supplier of a product sold to Vendor A and you see a post on Vendor A about a product that you personally bought from that Vendor that has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are living with or related to a DIFFERENT SUPPLIER to that Vendor you can't say a word in any post? IE: Because Pepsi sells products to Shell stations the Wife/girlfriend of a Pepsi truck driver can't make any statement on what great prices on Gas the Shell station has????

- really think this needs clarified as it appears the beginning of the statement makes the relationship/comment status apply to all (employee, officer or SUPPLIER of any given vendor). If we are going to remove comments by ANYONE that is related to ANY supplier/employee etc then I think we need to make that cross the board with all vendors - however not all relationships are always known so how do we Honestly Moderate this?


Thanks for clarifications.
Linda

I'd consider changing that to quarterly.

"Business Relationship" means an exchange of things of value with or without a contract.

You made my point with the Shell/Pepsi analogy. Girlfriend mentions the great prices at the Shell station, Shell station gets more customers, Shell station sells proportionately more Pepsi, boyfriend gets overtime to deliver more Pepsi, girlfriend gets nicer jewelry for her birthday.

That's a stretch of course, but I think you see my point.

Here's a clearer example. Let's say the wife of a supplier of Widget A to IPD is a member. She bought Widget B from IPD and comments positively about her experience with IPD. That drives more people to IPD, and then they see you featuring Widget A on your site. You'll sell more of those because the wife of the supplier has driven traffic to your site.

I think you understand what I'm trying to prevent here. What change would you propose?

99% of the members have no relationship to any vendors other than as customers. It's their cheers and jeers we want.

 

[Haynie]

I am a would be buyer. It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold. I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left. I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me. As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available. In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.

Then again maybe I read it wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

Buyers can edit their original post to add words under each photo listing the available blanks. I see that all the time. Like this.

The idea behind not editing photos is to preserve a record of what was being sold. I suppose we could allow the editing of photos to add an "X" over blanks which are sold. Would that help you?

The X would be very helpful.

 

[jeff]

The way i see this is that the small turner, college student like me doing this for fun is going to lose out. I will lose the ability to sell items that i dont need and along the same lines i will not be able to post when i run out of something and need to get just one with out paying shipping from a supplier when someone on the site may have an extra they havent touched in a year. I really feel like this is going to raise the price of blanks when someone pays to post them for sale. Ultimately the reason i came to this site is not only because of the vast knowledge from everyone but also because of the classifieds section where i could easily post things for sale, i see this forcing me to look else where for my products which hurts us all. Also items in lots must sell in lots not individually that is the part that hurts me because most of my purchases were individual items

I am doing this as a hobby the very few pens i actually sell go right back into materials and the changes that have occurred will hurt me. Some people here may have deep enough pockets to participate like this but i make my contribution to the site every bash, im sure its no where near what some people send it but it is what i can afford.

I really dont know what else to say except i am deeply saddened by the decision to change to this format, i would be more willing to pay a fee to use the site as a whole for the year than to pay per post to use one section.

You can sell items you don't need in Steals & Deals for free.

You can certainly post in Casual Conversation to ask if anyone can spare a widget you need.

If you have time, look in the classifieds for a week or so and tally up the value of the blanks sold. I think you might agree after that that $10 is a pretty reasonable cost.

Ryan, we're never going to charge a membership fee. Donations alone don't provide sufficient revenue to do the things that will keep this an exciting and growing place. There are many tens of thousands of dollars of commerce occurring for free in our classifieds and that has been going on since 2004. These changes are modest and reasonable, and I believe will be well-accepted once we get used to them.

If it "destroys the IAP" or "drives everyone away" as has been predicted to me via PM this morning :biggrin: we'll certainly make some changes.

With all due respect, I think your perspective may be a bit skewed given that you're on a college student's budget. I clearly remember my days as a college student scraping to pay tuition, rent, and have a little bit left over for fun, so I sympathize with you 100%

 

[jeff]

I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:

My asbestos shorts burst into flames about 10am :biggrin:

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[Constant Laubscher]

I am very glad for the changes, Well done I will be happy to pay my $10 per posting.
The IAP has been good to me. Keep up the good work!

 

[Smitty37]

Buyiing Service

I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?

That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.

 

[ed4copies]

I see a lot of issues going away. But (like with any other new venture) I see
some bugs to be worked out. I see some of them are being brought up.
Hope you're wearing asbestos undies.. :tongue:

My asbestos shorts burst into flames about 10am :biggrin:

Thanks for the kind words.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:Now known as Jeff "hot pants" Brown???:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[EricJS]

Jeff, Would it be difficult to format the site so that "contributors" can post for free (or lower cost, say $1-$2) The "contributors" would be members who contribute a minimum amount yearly. Other forums have adopted this.

I understand the need for changes and fully support you. This site has one of the best markets I've seen on any forum, for both sellers and consumers. I'd like to see us maintain the diversity and volume of that crowd.

You perform a wonderful service to us by hosting this site. Thank you for listening to our complaints and requests.

 

[mredburn]

I believe my point was your not letting those vendors that are willing to pay you to place ads, enough opertunity to do so. Im not saying you have to let a vendor buy the entire classified section but I believe your limits are to low. I dont have a problem with your price schedule, its just the cost of doing business. Every one will have to adjust the way they do business to accomadate the fees. I know of at least one seller that when I last checked had no post that was not a for sale post. THis member just used Iap as a free place to sell.

 

[jeff]

I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?

That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.

I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.

I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.

The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.

I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.

 

[Haynie]

Ultimately this site does does NOT belong to the community. It belongs to the person or people who pay the bills. It really is that simple. The rest of us come in and play in their sand box. Since it is their sand box we play by their rules or go to another sand box. We may not like their brand new "no metal tonka trucks in the sand box" rule but we have to live with it. We have to trust that while this no metal truck rule is new, there is a reason for it.

I for one have been very shocked at the free wheeling classifieds sections with nothing being given to the site. Some sites I have been on ask for a percentage of each sale. Others don't allow classifieds at all. others have a paying members only classifieds section. Different rules for different sand boxes. Judging by the amount of money being made from the classifieds section I would think posters should be more than happy to kick some of the proceeds back to the site that has allowed them to make money or advertise their wares free of charge. Assuming everyone who says they will buy does, there is a HUGE amount of money being moved around and people have this site to thank for that. Heck, many threads outside the classifieds are thinly veiled adverts.

_________________________________________________________

To the mods and overlords :biggrin:
Everyone likes making money. Nobody likes giving any of that money up. Your rules are not going to ruin the site. As for those who are "driven away"...well...I guess they were here for the freebies. Someone else will take their place. There will be growing pains. I appreciate this thread being opened to discussion. I think it shows an open mind and willingness to compromise.

I was just informed that I need to go back to working on taxes (Speaking of not liking to give up money). Just because I sleep with the boss does not mean I get to do whatever I want.

 

[zig613]

Hi Jeff…

I have read all the comments posted in this thread and it did make for some interesting reading. A lot of different views and a wide range of advice is being provided. But, what I didn't see enough were THANK YOUs to you and the rest of the moderators for VOLUNTEERING your time and likely some money from your own pocket in keeping the IAP doors open.

Many thanks and keep up the good work!

Wade

 

[Buzzzz4]

Thank you for a good perspective, Haynie. You are right. Most places would also just make the change, say "deal with it" and not allow for any discussion. We can't all agree and it beats feebay. Thanks all for making this a great place to discuss and learn more about our obsession.

 

[qalien]

To help me understand (and probably 90% of the other members) maybe you can tell us how much it actually costs in dollars per year to run this site. Then tell us how much is brought in per year to help pay for this site. Then for example, let's say it costs $500 a year to run, and fund raising brings in $1000 a year...where does that additional $500 go? I admit that I have never donated anything to help pay for the costs, but I have never seen a running total as to what is actually needed. I know that other sites such as this one that I have been on have had a single post, only able to be edited by the website "owner" that was updated at least weekly with how much was needed to pay for the hosting fees. When we saw that we were in the negative and the month was starting, people started donating and the hosting fees were always paid.

I also personally don't see an issue with charging a yearly membership fee to help cover costs. Then you would actually BE a member of IAP rather than just a registered message board user for IAP.

 

[arioux]

Hi Jeff…

I have read all the comments posted in this thread and it did make for some interesting reading. A lot of different views and a wide range of advice is being provided. But, what I didn't see enough were THANK YOUs to you and the rest of the moderators for VOLUNTEERING your time and likely some money from your own pocket in keeping the IAP doors open.

Many thanks and keep up the good work!

Wade

I second that post

 

[Smitty37]

I have none

I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?

That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.

I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.

I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.

The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.

I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.

I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.

If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.

With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.

BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.

 

[leestoresund]

Hmm. IMO that is a totally inappropriate question. "How much do you make?"
"Where does it go?"
Unless you are part owner of this enterprise it is not your business.
If you have been around a while (I've only been here a little more than a year) you can see that this is not a profit making business for the owners. If it were, they could manage it other ways, grow it and sell it (www.lumberjocks.com comes to mind).
If they make $10 or $5,000 we still get the benefit.

Just my $.03.

Lee

 

[DurocShark]

I don't want anybody to think I'm denigrating the site, or the mods, or the owner. Nothing like that at all. I have no horse in this particular race, and am just trying to share how I see this playing out. I want to help where I can.

 

[qalien]

"Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket. And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.

This is a change in the way we do business on this forum. I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.

 

[Monolith]

Hmm. IMO that is a totally inappropriate question. "How much do you make?"
"Where does it go?"
Unless you are part owner of this enterprise it is not your business.
If you have been around a while (I've only been here a little more than a year) you can see that this is not a profit making business for the owners. If it were, they could manage it other ways, grow it and sell it (www.lumberjocks.com comes to mind).
If they make $10 or $5,000 we still get the benefit.

Just my $.03.

Lee

I'd agree, but for this site billing itself as an [.org]anization by pen turners for pen turners, not a commercial venture.

Is the goal of IAP to turn a profit, or to support the profession? If it's to turn a profit, then come out and say so, and then no one will question your margins. But if you're going to present yourself as a nonprofit "association" run for the benefit of the community, then don't act indignant when the community wants a justification for new fees and a peak at actual expenses.

Further, wouldn't a much simpler solution be to simply allow businesses to purchase traditional ads on the site? IAP gets plenty of traffic for that to cover the cost of hosting. That would also ensure that the costs are being paid be the folks who can most easily absorb the cost -- the businesses.

 

[alphageek]

"Where does it go?" and other such questions are absolutely valid....if I decide to donate money, I would like to know that what I donate is actually going to go towards what am being told it is for rather than going into someone's pocket. And just to clarify, I am in no way shape or form accusing anyone of taking the money that is donated and keeping it.

This is a change in the way we do business on this forum. I'm trying to form my opinion on it and I know there are many people wondering the same thing, even if they haven't voiced it yet.

Willy,

I'm a moderator (and don't get paid) and even I have NO idea how much Jeff pays to host IAP, nor do I know exactly how much time, etc he puts into it (other than PLENTY). I however, disagree that those of you asking Jeff those questions are free to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.

Note that he is NOT charging a subscription to IAP, nor is he asking you to donate with this new endeavor. He is charging for advertising. If the money is going into his pocket, so be it. This site is not a non-profit. The members have no more right to know where the money goes than when you buy things at the store.

IMO - I'm glad that this is being done rather than the site being like many and overrun with banner ads and other advertising plastered all over most or all pages.

Dean

Dean

 

[Smitty37]

Charging for Ads

While I might have an issue or two on some of the restrictions on classified ads - paying for them is not one of them. What's done with the money isn't one either.

 

[arioux]

WHERE DOES IT GO ?????????????

Have you take the time to look around. This is where it goes. This site is the best forum around about pen turning. Great uptime, plenty of space to show pictures of our work, great response time, up to date forum software, mobile application support, great moderator team. And all that for free to read, use, post, lurk, contribute, 24/7. A librairy with information far better that than any $45. book out there. Video to watch and download from great contributor's like Ed Davidson, Russ Fairfield (RIP), Scott Hettel, that teaches you things that it would take mounts to master ortherwise and all that FOR FREE. I know where it goes, it goes in my personnal evolution as a penturner, it goes i the distribution of information, knowwledge, it goes in the possibility of shearing and making new friend.

Jeff could ask me a lot more that the little voluntary contribution that i give and i would be happy to do it and asking what he does with it is just an insult as far as i'm concern.

"This is a change in the way we do business on this forum"

Well the forum howner can make these change and he did it.

There are tons of other ways to get pen blanks, kits and pen turning material but only one IAP so ask me if i care about the business side.

 

[leestoresund]

Gallen:

Hmmm. "IF I decide to donate money..."
Implies that you have not done so.
"Donate" - a gift.

BTW, if I remember correctly, you (as did we all) had to ask to be able to join this site and an offer was made which you accepted.

That does not give you the right to inquire as to how it is run. If that was an important factor you should have asked before you joined.

Do you want to have a hand in running it? Then ask Jeff for that privilege. Maybe you can buy in or maybe you can donate hundreds of hours to ease the work he does to make this available for us.

If you don't like the way it is run, or you no longer wish to participate, you are free to dis-invite yourself. You haven't invested anything and therefor not lost anything.

I don't know Jeff. Never met him. Never talked with him. I guess the only contact I've had with him was when he agreed that I could become a member.

I appreciate what he offers to all of us.

I suspect that if this were mine and I got the crap I see here, I'd just shut it down.

Jeff (and the rest of the moderators and "management") are looking for ways to make this better and more efficient.

Thank them. Don't question them.

(That's probably a quarters worth.)

Lee

 

[alphageek]

I however, disagree that those of you asking Jeff those questions are free to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.
Dean

Oops.. That reads wrong.. I meant that I disagree that people have a right to know where the money goes.

That was supposed to read: Everyone is fee to ask, but Jeff is free to not answer.

 

[PenMan1]

Well, Jeff!
With all of the hoopla, I feel inclined to (and will) double my humble yearly contribution this year.

I have first-hand knowledge how time consuming and financially draining it is keeping a forum like this one on the boards!

If $5 to run a classified (which would cost more in almost any local newspaper or one small E-bay listing) is going to put a financial strain on members here, then I am financially "better off" than I thought!

I guess it is past time for me to try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!

I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmmm

Well, Jeff!
With all of the hoopla, I feel inclined to (and will) double my humble yearly contribution this year.

I have first-hand knowledge how time consuming and financially draining keeping a forum like this one on the boards!

If $5 to run a classified (which would cost more in almost any local newspaper classified or one small E-bay listing) is going to put a financial strain on members here, then I am financially "better off" than I thought!

I guess it is past time for me try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!

I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.

Respectfully submitted.

I don't think I've seen too many businesspeople complain...at least not about the charge for an ad. We know the cost of doing business and $5 or $10 ain't gonna break the bank. I've been selling out on slimlines at a loss for a couple of weeks now and to be honest a fee for advertising here would be "lost in the smoke" I lose that much in shipping on every sale.

 

[Smitty37]

Mutual ....

You cannot respond to a question such as "where can I buy X" with anything such as "I sell it", or "ABC has them" when you own or are in any way affiliated with ABC, it's owners, employees, or officers.

The above rule is from product references. Does this rule apply if I have been a retail customer of a business who has also been a retail customer of mine.

I do buy many things at retail from members who have also bought items from me at retail. Many of my retail customers are in the business of selling pens and sometimes other items as well. Are you now asking that before I mention that they have a product, I have to check back through my records to see if they ever made a purchase from me?

 

[soligen]

I have essentially been running a buying service for some high end components no longer sold by any other US Based Supplier. As I read the rules I will not be able to offer that service any longer. Am I reading correctly?

That doesn't hurt me because I don't make enough profit on them to dent my bottom line but I do think it is to the detriment of the membership that I apparantly won't be be able to continue these offers.

I don't know how else to draw the line other than at profit. We discussed this, and your buys specifically, for quite some time trying to see how they could be accommodated.

I don't know what you consider a "dent". What we were trying to avoid was the situation where someone was using member's money instead of their own to make a significant profit.

The only way I could see to accommodate this would be to remove the "on hand or committed to buy" provision. That opens things up to those who want to risk member funds rather than their own while making a profit on the goods and the float.

I'd be very open to hear your specific suggestions on how to accommodate this while protecting members from profiteers who prefer to risk other people's money.

I don't have any suggestions. I just wanted to make sure I actually understood the rule.

If you don't want that activity on your site - so be it. It has been a lot of work for very little benefit other than I did gain some loyal customers and good friends.

With the market research tool I might be able to come up with a way to provide this service to the membership without breaking the rule. Who knows.

BTW. What I mean by not making a dent is that on the Dayacom purchases I've made....my profit has been less than 0 to date. I might make some profit if/when my inventory gets sold.

Jeff,

I'd like to encourage you to find a way to allow the kinds of buys Smitty does to continue to happen.

Yes, Smitty is using our pre-payments as capitol to reach purchase mimums, but I dont see anything wrong with this - we all know and understand what he is doing, and anyone who doesnt want to take the risk doesnt have to. We get the benefit of some great prices on kits -- as long as we dont mind waiting. This is a perfectly valid business model, and this is common on other venues (pre-purchasing wine before it is released comes to mind). It is a business model based on trust.

It is admirable for you to want to help protect IAP members from people trying to take advantage, but I'm not sure that is achievable. Risk is in every transaction we make. The vendors advertizing here are typically small one person (or family) concerns, often run by a retired person. With any transaction we take risk - who knows when something "unfortunate" will happen to any vendor.

The kinds of deals Smitty does only work with someone with a good reputation. Personally, I would not even think about entering such a deal with someone new to the IAP, and I waited before entering a deal with Smitty until I had a certain degree of confidence. Each of us personally can choose the amount of risk we can tolerate.

Personally, I'd rather have the option to do an advanced purchase deal - guaging risk vs. savings for myself - rather than not have the option. As long as the terms of the deal are clearly layed out, I see nothing wrong with them.

BTW, I have absolutely no association with Smitty, other than I participated in one of his buys.

 

[ed4copies]

Well, time to stop being silent!

Were it not for the IAP, there would not be a place for penmakers to start competing to make "cool blanks".

If penmakers had not started making "cool blanks", there would not have been a clamor of IAP members to buy those "cool blanks" at one location.

Had there not been such a "request", Dawn would not have started "Exotics".

Had there not been an IAP, there would not have been a place to let penmakers KNOW about Exotics.

Now, the IAP is asking Exotics and others to PAY for that promotion they were giving us for FREE!!!

I have two comments:
1) It's about time.
2) It's too cheap!

Which leads to my real question:

CAN I PLACE THE FIRST AD???
WHEN????

It will indeed be a PLEASURE to HELP SUPPORT THE IAP!!!!

Any business should expect to pay for advertising, we will be happy to do so!! Thank-you, JEFF!!!!

PS: Feel free to charge me for my signature line, as well--that is ALSO an AD!!!

 

[wood128]

Jeff, I really support your actions to make this a better site , with reasonable changes aS required. You and your volunteer staff do an amazing job of providing a great service. A small fee to list a classified ad is no problem to me, but might affect the business people who try to make a living selling pen supplies on IAP. Presently Ebay charges me no listing fees, but charges a sales fee of about 8% . I often get more than one sale from each listing on the classified ads of IAP. I would gladly volunteer my time on the cumputer to assist your team on IAP. Just let me know. Many good friends here .....keep up the good work.
Joe

 

[tjseagrove]

....I guess it is past time for me to try putting IN as much into IAP as I take away. If knowledge and information were money, the IAP would be making me rich!

I, for one, appreciate your efforts to do what is necessary to keep this site up and in good repair.

Respectfully submitted.

I appreciate all you contribute that I can learn from along with all the other experienced members here.

Jeff, thank you for allowing me access to this wealth of information. I just started this wonderful adventure the date I joined. With the help of the free help I have received, my sons and I have been able to tool up, kit up, and learn a lot !!!! Your efforts do not go unnoticed but sadly not acknowledged enough.

Keep up the good work and I can grow with any changes you make. I for one so no problems with you providing a Premium membership with member only forum for idea exchanges and help along with the privilege of using the logo on websites and business cards. I currently do that for another forum and the $25 is nothing compared to the value I receive.

Thank you Jeff and also your whole team for all the work you do....

Tom

 

[MesquiteMan]

Let me chime in here on the money thing and clarify some things...

Jeff Brown is the sole owner of IAP. It is a privately owned organization and is not a registered non-profit. No one gets paid anything for their time to help run IAP. I know for a fact that Jeff puts way more into IAP in both time and money than he ever gets in donations. Some key facts for you...

• IAP has 2 servers and they are dedicate servers. Visit this link and you will find a dedicated server from them cost $200 per month. Not saying Jeff uses them, this was the first one I picked with a search. That is $400 per month just in hosting fees and does not include extra disk space or bandwidth. IAP is NOT run on your typical $6.95 a month shared hosting account! If so, you would have a hard time getting on.
• V-Bulletin costs around $285 for the type of license IAP has
• Jeff has done, and continues to do a lot of custom coding for IAP. Sure, he does most of it himself but when is the last time you have checked to see what custom php coding costs to have done.
• During the last birthday bash, many of the top prizes were PAID for by Jeff to give away. They were not all donated.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I don't always don't agree with Ed but in this case I agree 100%, I'll gladly pay for advertising and yes even my signature line. If it wasn't for the IAP I would never have attempted to do shows the way I do them, which has made me not rich but a lot better off than just my retirement checks. And that has allowed me to start serving members here with my new site so Jeff no complaints here, this is your house and your rules and as said, about time.

 

[asyler]

as a ,newer member of the site, i would like to say a big thank to all the owners, mods and all who make this site the best source of supplies and knowledge i have found, i have learned a skill and a hobby that i never had any experience in Thank You

 

[cwolfs69]

GOOD JOB JEFF

Jeff, im 60+ years old. I have now idea how much you make off this site. My guess it is a (RED) or a (-) number, depending on your accounting books knowing what i know about web hosting and the intricasies of forum management. However i do know that this is an amazing website. Im sure that most people don't realize the work involved in such things as knowing who is signed in at this time, listing posts that have been updated since your last sign on, etc. Stop and think about just the job of determining who is signing up for the next PITH this fall. Don't worry about what a few naysayers and complainers say. Those of us who really appreciate this site are grateful for your work. As one other post said, at least you're letting it be discussed. I also thank those who have had genuine constructive comments and questions. But truly dislike the comments and condescension of some concerning your changes.

Basically i want to say , Thanks you for the site and you make the decisions the way you need to keep this site going.

Charley