Classifieds Overhaul

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Greetings,

For the last 6 months, the management team has been working hard on a complete overhaul of the Buy, Sell, & Swap section of the forum. Before that, Curtis and I had been working on various concepts for almost two years. Later today you'll get to see the new structure and rules, ask questions, and provide your feedback. Buy, Sell, and Swap will close to new ads on Sept 28, and the new "IAP Department of Commerce" (DOC) will open on Oct 1.

Our existing classifieds section has been operating essentially unchanged since 2004. While it has served the purpose of draining our wallets and filling out shops with the tools, kits, and supplies we can't live without, that section of our site has not been without problems. If you've been around the site for a few years, you're probably well aware of some of the issues and annoyances.

The main goals of the new DOC are to confine advertising and marketing to a single section of the forum, streamline the process of buying and selling, and encourage sellers to make more judicious and efficient use of the resource we're providing.

One change that you will immediately notice is that there is a cost associated with using two of the new forums; Classifieds, and Premium Classifieds. One of the reasons for the clutter in the existing classifieds is that there is no incentive for sellers to make careful use of the service we're providing. The cost is extremely small relative to the revenue most sales generate, and the income will help make the IAP a stronger organization and allow us to undertake some exciting new projects.

Some of the new rules apply to how vendors can discuss their products outside the DOC. You would not believe the number of reported posts we get which say "hey, that's advertising!" I'm sure you've seen threads in SOYP or elsewhere that turned into blatant advertising and clearly belonged in the classifieds. The new "Market Research" and "Vendor Cheers & Jeers" forums will help us corral threads which show up in the general forums but which do have some element of advertising.

For those wishing to trade and give stuff away, or sell the extra bits of stuff laying around the shop, we still have free forums for those purposes.

Look for the new DOC section in the forum list shortly, read the rules (in the "Rules" forum of DOC) and feel free to comment or ask questions in this thread or via PM to me.

Monolith · Sep 10, 2011

$10 to post a "for sale" thread? This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.

Edit: Especially when theres no automated system for purchasing a new thread. All you're doing is adding work for the moderators when you said yourself that the mods already had their hands full trying to regulate the old classifieds.

Sorry, but nothing about this system seems well planned or beneficial.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Monolith said:
$10 to post a "for sale" thread? This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.

Sorry you feel that way.

1 - It's an extremely reasonable cost based on the revenue which is typically generated from sales with a large number of photos and bumps.

2 - There is substantial cost to running this site, and donations don't provide the revenue we need to sustain ourselves and undertake new programs.

3 - The Classifieds forum cost is $5.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Monolith said:
$10 to post a "for sale" thread? This seems ridiculous... especially when theres no benefit over the old system.

Edit: Especially when theres no automated system for purchasing a new thread. All you're doing is adding work for the moderators when you said yourself that the mods already had their hands full trying to regulate the old classifieds.

Sorry, but nothing about this system seems well planned or beneficial.

Did you read the how to purchase a thread post? How much more automated could it be?

The mod team was an integral part of the development of the DOC. The new rules were in many cases tailored specifically to address the needs of the moderators to be able to do a more effective job with less work.

I do appreciate your comments.

Monolith · Sep 10, 2011

Sorry, I didn't see the thread detailing how to purchase threads.

Still, it seems like an overly convoluted system. How much does it cost to host IAP, anyway?

soligen · Sep 10, 2011

For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.

Timebandit · Sep 10, 2011

Monolith said:
Sorry, I didn't see the thread detailing how to purchase threads.

Still, it seems like an overly convoluted system. How much does it cost to host IAP, anyway?

Hmm... Do you question your boss when he makes a new rule at work...Jeff is the Boss and has worked with all of the Moderators, which is who has to deal with all that goes on around here, to come up with what they think is right for this site. I respect that.:wink:

alphageek · Sep 10, 2011

soligen said:
For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.

Dennis,

Although that was not called out, I am sure that the mods wouldn't act upon a "Closed" post other than closing the thread. You are right that a closed post at the same time as reporting it closed is a good idea in case the mods take time to get to closing the post.

Dean
Asst Moderator

soligen · Sep 10, 2011

alphageek said:
soligen said:

For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.

Click to expand...

Dennis,

Although that was not called out, I am sure that the mods wouldn't act upon a "Closed" post other than closing the thread. You are right that a closed post at the same time as reporting it closed is a good idea in case the mods take time to get to closing the post.

Dean
Asst Moderator

I would think so too, but the rules are VERY specific, so I am suggesting that you call it out in the rules.

alphageek · Sep 10, 2011

soligen said:
I would think so too, but the rules are VERY specific, so I am suggesting that you call it out in the rules.

I'm sure Jeff will take advisement of that. Just giving you a moderators view too.

knowltoh · Sep 10, 2011

To say the cost is "ridiculous" and nothing seems "well planned" IS ridiculous.

OKLAHOMAN · Sep 10, 2011

Am I to take it that as long as the ads or different( IE: not advertising the same product) that in the classified we can run more than one ad simultaneously?

DurocShark · Sep 10, 2011

Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.

maxwell_smart007 · Sep 10, 2011

DurocShark said:
Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.

Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.

I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!

DurocShark · Sep 10, 2011

maxwell_smart007 said:
DurocShark said:

Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.

Click to expand...

Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.

I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!

Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month.

Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.

OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

OKLAHOMAN said:
Am I to take it that as long as the ads or different( IE: not advertising the same product) that in the classified we can run more than one ad simultaneously?

No that's not the intent.

You can have one ad running in Classifieds at a time.

You can have two ads running simultaneously in Premium Classifieds.

The limits are per-forum, so you could have one running in Classifieds along with two running in Premium Classifieds.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

soligen said:
For the classifieds, I think you should always allow the OP to post Thread Closure notice, even if they have used up the 1 per week follow up post. This allows them to notify everyone that it is closed as soon as the item is sold, instead of having to wait for a Moderator.

We'll add some words to that effect. Thanks for the suggestion.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

DurocShark said:
maxwell_smart007 said:

DurocShark said:

Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.

Click to expand...

Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.

I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!

Click to expand...

Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month.

Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.

OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.

I understand that it may look a little restrictive, but about 80% of it is not new. It's either in the TOS, AUP, or scattered around in various rules posts in different forums.

If you can point out what's unreasonably restrictive, we'll certainly discuss it and make changes which improve it.

OKLAHOMAN · Sep 10, 2011

Are you going to have all payments made through Pay pal and is there in place a way to pay a set amount up front (lets say $200) that would cover ads for a period of time in the classified or the preimium classified ?

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

OKLAHOMAN said:
Are you going to have all payments made through Pay pal and is there in place a way to pay a set amount up front (lets say $200) that would cover ads for a period of time in the classified or the preimium classified ?

Yes, it'll all be done via PayPal. You can see screenshots of the process here.

Payments aren't "time based" now, although that was considered. It's a per-thread purchase. A different way to do this would be to charge for "subscriptions" to the Classified or Premium Classified forum which would then allow the starting of threads for a certain number of days, weeks, etc. That would of course require that we limit the number of threads per unit time for people who use the subscription method.

At this time, we're sticking to one thread credit per purchase. The only reason is that the plug-in we use for this does not have a means for members to see their credit balance. As soon as I can code something up for that, multiple credits will be available. That'll be far more cost-efficient for us from a PayPal fee standpoint than individual $5 and $10 transactions.

If there is interest in the "subscription" method, we can consider implementing that as well. So the frequent users could buy a subscription, and the occasional users could do it by purchasing threads. If any of you who are or plan to be heavy users of the classifieds would be interested in the subscription method of payment, please PM me.

mredburn · Sep 10, 2011

If your not putting the classified on the front page and the objective is to help raise funds to offset costs, why limit the amount of ads in the places they are intended to be?

Buzzzz4 · Sep 10, 2011

How will a buyer know what is available in a regular classifieds post if the buyers aren't allowed to claim items in the post and the seller is so limited in their postings? For a small seller like me this pretty much shuts me down.

nativewooder · Sep 10, 2011

I haven't read the new stuff, just looking through here, but I think it's sad that you've decided to only use PayPal, since I've decided not to ever use PayPay again due to problems getting money from them in a timely manner.

DurocShark · Sep 10, 2011

jeff said:
DurocShark said:

maxwell_smart007 said:

DurocShark said:

Reading through some of the info over there, it feels really restrictive. I don't sell much here so take my comment with a grain of salt. Perhaps the rules are necessary...

Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it? Sorry, I'm skeptical.

Click to expand...

Don, the rules are no more restrictive than the AUP (acceptable use policy) or TOS (Terms of Service) for the entire IAP site.

I doubt that many people read the AUP or TOS, however, until it's pointed out that they've violated a rule!

Click to expand...

Except I don't have to pay $5 per post in the rest of the site. Or am limited to X posts per month.

Like I said, I don't sell often, and my stuff would be in Deals & Steals, but if I did, I would find this new structure really restrictive.

OTOH, this is a good sized market here. So perhaps the need exists to tighten it down.

Click to expand...

I understand that it may look a little restrictive, but about 80% of it is not new. It's either in the TOS, AUP, or scattered around in various rules posts in different forums.

If you can point out what's unreasonably restrictive, we'll certainly discuss it and make changes which improve it.

I thought I did... "Time limits, photo limits, and reply limits. And that's after paying for it?"

I doubt one post per month or no replying are part of the TOS for the rest of the site. Otherwise my rambling would have had me banned long ago... :wink:

I'd have less of a problem with the restrictions if there was no fee. Or have the fee free up most of the restrictions. But paying to be more restricted just doesn't feel right.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Buzzzz4 said:
How will a buyer know what it available in a regular classifieds post if the buyers aren't allowed to claim items in the post and the seller is so limited in their postings? For a small seller like me this pretty much shuts me down.

Claiming posts bump the thread. That pushes the thread to the top of the forum listing. Exposure is value in selling, hence the higher cost of the forum in which claiming posts are allowed.

We hashed this over for months while developing the new forums. Looking at some of your previous ads, the $10 cost would be less than 10%. You could sell a lot more per ad and that percentage would go way down.

We looked at some average sales to set the cost. There are some sellers making >$1000 from a post selling blanks. $10 seemed reasonable.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

nativewooder said:
I haven't read the new stuff, just looking through here, but I think it's sad that you've decided to only use PayPal, since I've decided not to ever use PayPay again due to problems getting money from them in a timely manner.

There are a couple additional options open to us. What system do you use?

I have found the PayPal debit card to be very convenient for making withdrawals. The 3-4 day EFT delay is annoying.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

mredburn said:
If your not putting the classified on the front page and the objective is to help raise funds to offset costs, why limit the amount of ads in the places they are intended to be?

We were trying to strike a balance between cleaning up the classifieds and generating revenue for the site. A major complaint had been seeing 3-4 ad threads from the same person at the top of the forum.

Sure, we could generate additional revenue by not limiting the number of simultaneous ads. We not trying to generate as much money as possible, just a reasonable and fair amount for the exposure we provide.

Not sure I completely understood your question! :biggrin:

Haynie · Sep 10, 2011

I am a would be buyer. It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold. I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left. I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me. As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available. In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.

Then again maybe I read it wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

nativewooder · Sep 10, 2011

OK, now I've read all the rules and I think there are major improvements in the system. That doesn't mean you have to like them, or that vendors will not grumble about the cost, but if life didn't have problems, we wouldn't remember 9/11!

Toni · Sep 10, 2011

I give up!!! Where are the rules post?

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Haynie said:
I am a would be buyer. It would be extremely beneficial and much appreciated if the sellers were allowed to edit pictures to show which blanks are sold. I personally have not bought blanks from here due to the fact that it is too much work for me, the buyer, to filter through the pages to see what is left. I am not a quantity buyer, nor is this a business for me. As a hobbyist it is not worth it to create a spread sheet to figure out what is still available. In the new system, the way I read it, the seller is not allowed to edit or alter their pictures and therefore there is nothing stream lined about this process.

Then again maybe I read it wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

Buyers can edit their original post to add words under each photo listing the available blanks. I see that all the time. Like this.

The idea behind not editing photos is to preserve a record of what was being sold. I suppose we could allow the editing of photos to add an "X" over blanks which are sold. Would that help you?

DurocShark · Sep 10, 2011

Toni said:
I give up!!! Where are the rules post?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=161

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Toni said:
I give up!!! Where are the rules post?

http://www.penturners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=161

DurocShark · Sep 10, 2011

Longfellow · Sep 10, 2011

From first reading of the new rules and restrictions, I am sure my days of posting on the classifeds will be over. I can't justify paying $5.00 for an item I sell for $7.50 and then have to pay a Paypal fee on top. Might as well burn the wood. I guess I'll stick with their rates.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Longfellow said:
From first reading of the new rules and restrictions, I am sure my days of posting on the classifeds will be over. I can't justify paying $5.00 for an item I sell for $7.50 and then have to pay a Paypal fee on top. Might as well burn the wood. I guess I'll stick with their rates.

You post an ad almost every day. One option would be to take 14 of those sets of blanks, put them in one ad, and let it run for the two weeks. Would that be possible?

Rob73 · Sep 10, 2011

Trades and giveaways. I know this is not aimed at the 'classified ad's' but reading this thread I think it's still relevant.

I was looking at the trades and giveaways section. I've found some items after cleaning my shop out (used to be cabinet shop) I was thinking of putting up. Granted most are not specifically related to 'pens' but are items you would find in a wood shop. For example, drawer guides, door hinges and associated hardware. Not pen turning specific but easily something someone could use that's building some storage cabinets for their shop. I also have some chrome bottle stoppers I was considering putting up.

Now at the top of the current 'Trades And Giveaways' forum it states:

Trade or give away for free anything related to pen turning. Blanks, tools, parts. I've also looked at the 'new' section rule set terms as well.

Just taking a quick look at the current trade/giveaways forum you can plainly see users putting up items that have nothing to do with 'pen turning'.
Quick example : cane blank, a 36 volt dewalt charger (ok maybe you can try and argue this could be 'pen' related) , welding supplies, bottle stopper chuck, hard drives, and a guy looking for a milling machine.
To me this shows that you have been giving some leeway to users that are posting item(s) that are not necessarily related specifically related towards pen turning.

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is the moderation hammer is about to come down with the new 'Department Of Commerce' section. If this is the case don't you think that strictly enforcing a only pen related rule set is going to be hindering to the users of this section?

soligen · Sep 10, 2011

I've been painting a bedroom after reading these rules this morning, so have had plenty of free brain power to ponder this.

These comments are strictly from a BUYERS perspective, and what provides value to me as a consumer. I've never sold anything on this site, but I have bought things.

1)

If a post offers mutiple items for sale, but does not allow "claiming posts" then the from a comsumer's perspective this is worthless, and I will not buy from any such posts. Claiming posts are a service to the buyer so we all don't waste our time in a back and forth trying to figure out what is available.

I will never try to buy anything from a multi item post in the Classified forum. If the rules stay as is, seller should simply recognize that I am likely not the only one with this attitude and simply avoid this forum.

2)

There does not seem to be a provision for simply advertising, then conducting business at the vendors site. I find particulary valuable posts that items are now "in stock" or that a new item has arrived and where to go to buy it, or a special offer like free shipping or a discount. No need for any follow up posts - just let the add run for 2 weeks. I suggest that this is a better use of "classifieds" and suggest the classified forum be converted to this type of usage, allowing 2 bumps in the 2 week run time.

3)

I also think there is a loss of value to buyers by the complete prohibition on announcing advaced sales offers. I think this has value to many people, but without this site there is no way for us to convieniently hear about such offers. I suggest these be allowed in an "anouncement only" manner consistent with number 2 above, with all the business to subsequently be conducted on the vendor's site.

jeff · Sep 10, 2011

Rob73 said:
Trades and giveaways. I know this is not aimed at the 'classified ad's' but reading this thread I think it's still relevant.

I was looking at the trades and giveaways section. I've found some items after cleaning my shop out (used to be cabinet shop) I was thinking of putting up. Granted most are not specifically related to 'pens' but are items you would find in a wood shop. For example, drawer guides, door hinges and associated hardware. Not pen turning specific but easily something someone could use that's building some storage cabinets for their shop. I also have some chrome bottle stoppers I was considering putting up.

Now at the top of the current 'Trades And Giveaways' forum it states:

Trade or give away for free anything related to pen turning. Blanks, tools, parts. I've also looked at the 'new' section rule set terms as well.

Just taking a quick look at the current trade/giveaways forum you can plainly see users putting up items that have nothing to do with 'pen turning'.
Quick example : cane blank, a 36 volt dewalt charger (ok maybe you can try and argue this could be 'pen' related) , welding supplies, bottle stopper chuck, hard drives, and a guy looking for a milling machine.
To me this shows that you have been giving some leeway to users that are posting item(s) that are not necessarily related specifically related towards pen turning.

The vibe I'm getting from this thread is the moderation hammer is about to come down with the new 'Department Of Commerce' section. If this is the case don't you think that strictly enforcing a only pen related rule set is going to be hindering to the users of this section?

I don't moderate the Buy, Sell, Swap section so I have not seen those trade items. I don't think it would be objectionable to allow other items. I just don't want to have to write a long list of what's acceptable. We'll consider this.

I don't believe you're expanding this to include any of the for-sale forums, are you? I don't think it's unreasonable to limit for-sale items to pen-related. For years, we've allowed "pen-related" to include small turning stuff as well - stoppers, etc.

Rob73 · Sep 10, 2011

I don't believe you're expanding this to include any of the for-sale forums, are you? I don't think it's unreasonable to limit for-sale items to pen-related. For years, we've allowed "pen-related" to include small turning stuff as well - stoppers, etc.

No, I was speaking directly to the trade & give away forum. Non pen related if I wanted to 'sell' I'd just post over at SMC.

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