Wanted: Metallurgist

[ed4copies]

Anybody here know how to analyze a piece of metal, say a pen component?

Or do you know of a lab or university that would do such things?

My curiosity has been piqued--I'd like to get a scientific answer to several questions.

Thanks

 

[terryf]

I sent you a PM Ed!

 

[ed4copies]

Thank you, Terry!! All knowledge is gratefully accepted!!

Still looking for a testing lab, folks!!

 

[baileyr4]

Many years ago I worked in a steel mill and we used a Spectrometer to burn each piece to check the steel type. If you could find a small mill that might do the same thing, they might be able to get a reading on a pen component. Guarenteed the piece will be toast though when they are done burning it with the machine. The results from the burn are fed into a computer which will give a fairly complete readout of the components of the metal.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Hell I'll galdly split the cost, this has my curiosity piqued also and would be smething we all need to know the answers to.

 

[ed4copies]

I thoroughly expect to "toast" a few kits.

I hope to walk away better informed.

 

[Smitty37]

destructive tests

Most of the tests to determine composition and/or thickness will be destructive...hardness tests are probably destructive too.

That being said I'm interested too and offer my help with getting this done.

Don't send "herbie" though---I'll take PSIs word that they're Rhodium

 

[glycerine]

Ha ha, Ed, you are too much! It is a good idea though. I'd be willing to donate a few kits or something to help with this venture as well...

 

[steeler fan1]

Hey Ed,

Might try contacting someone at the U of W, Madison. One of the science departments might help?

Carl

 

[brookswife803]

Smittys right. Most tests are very destructive. In my past welding life we did many many tests on our test welds. Dye pen testing could show you weak spots, some x rays could show internal composition but a tensil test will tell you the strength of the metal and may be your best classifyer.

 

[ed4copies]

Ha ha, Ed, you are too much! It is a good idea though. I'd be willing to donate a few kits or something to help with this venture as well...

In the copier industry it is common practice for the sales department to make claims that the service personnel are told to refute.

So, as a dealer-owner, I was quite surprised when I attended service school and learned of the discrepancies. Made me doubt all statements until I could test it myself or have a "disinterested third party" test it. (There are such entities in the copier industry now and I subscribe to their services, for a fee). Amazing how our industry has "cleaned up".

After the research I have done today, there are holes large enough to drive a convoy through.

I am now motivated to find the truth. Someone PM'd me about suing for all the kits we buy, if they were misrepresented---that is NOT my intention. I am only interested in knowing what I am selling, so I make truthful statements to MY customers.

In this case, that would be all of YOU who buy kits from me. I am not contented by "parroting back" the "stuff" we get from the "non-manufacturing-manufacturer".

FWIW,
Ed

 

[KenV]

Ed -- there are two general types of testing designs.

Qualitative Testing -- what is there. You likely did some of this general heading when you took Chemistry in Highschool. Dipping a loop in solution and putting it into a flame could indicate presence of a specific ion in the solution.

Quantative Testing -- the actual quantity of what the components are in the sample. this can be expressed in a number of ways. As the precision increases, or the smaller trace amounts are being sought, the price tends to go up and the sampling methods become much more critical.

The method of extracting the sample, and the processes are commonly controlled by labratory standards and the labratories are specialized for the kinds of tests they perform. There are standard setting and publishing organizations who do such work -- such as the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM), American Welding Society, and others.

Do you want to just test platings? How many different kinds? What answers are you seeking and to what precision? Is there a standard already written for the test you are seekng?

Need to get some specifics before going lab shopping -- Otherwise you will not likely get where you want to go (You do not go to the bakery to get a special steak for the grill).

 

[ed4copies]

Thanks Ken!!

I expected to be in "uncharted waters" for me. I am hoping to have someone with greater knowledge guide me through. Wanna volunteer?? PM me, I am not trying to put anyone "on the spot"!!

 

[Smitty37]

Precious Metals

I suspect that our greatest interest in composition would be in the precious metals - Platinum - Rhodium - Gold 24kt - Upgrade Gold - and possibly Silver. The other metals are such that "cheating" on their composition wouldn't be likely because they are not that expensive.

The other item I think would be of most interest would be plating thickness. I don't know what others claim but I do know what my supplier claims.

Titanium is a special case...Titanium is a metal but in most of the plating we see it is in the form of Titanium Nitride which is not a metal it is a ceramic and might need some different form of testing.

We'd also need to do some investigating on the underlying material. A barrier coat is usually used between, for instance, gold and copper to prevent the copper bleeding into the gold. Typically it is Nickel but it doesn't have to be.

My supplier tells me they use Chrome under the Titanium Nitride...

We need to get some education so we know what to be looking for and what the answers we would get from testing mean.

 

[ed4copies]

Thanks to all who have PM'd me, as well as those who comment here.

We will move forward with this and I continue to look for guidance from any who may like to input--PM me.

Ed

 

[ohiococonut]

If you are just interested in the composition of the metal there are (NDT) Non Destructive Test that can be performed that shouldn't run too much money. It's just matter of finding the test lab and explaining what exactly it is you want done. The number of test that they can perform is mind boggling.

You do know you could be opening up Pandoras box :wink:

 

[workinforwood]

I do not know what pen parts are made out of. What I do know is that 85% of all steel used in the united states is carbon steel. The most common of that is mild carbon steel, which is ideal for industrial manufacturing such as mass turnings on Swiss screw machines <an ideal way to mass produce pen parts btw>. Mild steel can contain a bit of brass or nickle, but not often as that would raise the price. Mild steel is the cheapest steel and easiest to machine. When you spin down a typical pen component part, such as the nib connector of a cigar pen, it sure looks and acts like a mild steel to me. If we manufacture mostly with mild steel, and it is the most economical solution to mass produced machined parts, most likely China would be doing the same thing and their percent of use is likely higher than ours too. They do buy more steel than us, and they buy a lot of steel from us, so stands to reason I would think.

read more....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

 

[workinforwood]

Oh...I forgot to add. Set a cheap ole slim kit in some water for a while. Add a touch of salt to speed up the process if you like. The slim kit will rust. Even though it is plated, it will still rust, starting at the inside where it has less plating, sharp corners and burrs perhaps. You can speed things up even more if you scratch at the plating a bit. It will rust, I know this for a fact, I've seen it, a component part on the concrete near the overhead door that fell there one day and sat for quite a while, getting moisture to it from the concrete and minor amounts of rain that can get under the door on to the floor a bit.

Nickel does not rust. Brass does not rust. Add steel and nickel and brass together, it will get some rust but not much. For many years coins where plated with nickel, that's one strong plating and does not rust. You don't find too many old coins that are rusty unless something serious happened to the coin to get through the thick plating.

 

[bitshird]

Jeff, just check the parts with a Magnet, My bet is a lot of the metal parts are a brass alloy, for ease of stamping,I think any Lathe turning on the parts is a second operation, but still about the only parts of the pens I checked, a Sierra, one of Ed's Diplomat, a slimline,(copper) and chrome, a baron that had been 24 kt, an Emperor and a Zen, other than the clips there was only one pen that had any magnetic attraction to any of the body parts , the Zen, like !@#$%^e DUH, the nib on the Baron and the Emperor also had a bit of steel, as well, but that was to be expected, I think Ed is looking more into the Plating,, both on how many Mils thickness and the purity of the metals in question. With Gold around 1450.00 and silver around 35.00 and Rhodium over 2,000.00, with platinum close to 1800.00 an ounce you can bet you sweet hind end the thickness at least have been cut back a bit, but I'm not sure if any of the companies are going to risk stating false quality/purity of their plating's, even though the standards regarding Precious Metal Plating are kind of lax.

 

[Manny]

Ed,

I sent you a pm on this question

Manny

 

[workinforwood]

Interesting Ken. I didn't try that. I wonder what lets them rust. I know they don't rust in a normal environment, but they do rust in abnormal environment as I've seen it first hand with a woodnwhimsy slim kit.

 

[ed4copies]

Aside from my normal skepticism, the recent "conversation" led me to do research on the price of rhodium. I found that it was UNDER $1000, in 2005.

By 2008, it was in excess of $9000.

Indeed, today it is back down to the $1000 neighborhood.

I find it incredulous that our suppliers "ate" a 900% increase in the cost of ANY raw material, that they are using--so my hypothesis has to be, "this element is not being used". Now, a scientific test could find I am incorrect---I hope. That would make the providers of "rhodium plated kits" (some of which I sell) into heros.

Wouldn't that be nice????

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Here is a chart showing the 5 year prices with a high of 10,010.00 per ounce.

The avrage thickness accourding to jewerly standards​

Thickeness of the deposit should be minimized. Electroplated rhodium deposits tend to develop a highly fractured, very dense crystal structure. This high fracture crystal structure contributes directly to the wear hardness and durability of the rhodium surface. However, as the thickness of the deposit increases the possibility of the electrodeposit fracturing and delaminating from the substrate increases. Standard good manufacturing practice for rhodium plating requires that the rhodium bath be kept absolutely free of impurities and continuously monitored for the correct amount of organic stress reduction compounds. When properly maintained, a rhodium electrodeposit of up to 100 micro inches (2.5 micros, 0.000100 inches) is regularly attained.
A typical rhodium thickness would be 20 -30 micro inches

 

[workinforwood]

I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.

I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.

 

[terryf]

Jeff

Not always true in that the average jeweller wont be able to tell between 5 and 10 microns.

The better ones will be able to tell you that they believe its Rhodium or platinum or whatever but it will have to be sent to a lab for a definitive test.

It also depends on where they do the test - platings are thicker on corners and edges than on flats. Telling you its 32 microns doesnt mean anything (like the economy rate of a motor vehicle) - telling you that the average plating thickenss is 10.7 microns means a whole lot more.

Once I get the kits to the lab we will be able to clear this up once and for all

I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.

I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.

 

[workinforwood]

Staring at that chart got me thinking. What happened for the colossal price drop. At first I thought 911 terrorist attack, but no. Looks to me like the election of a new president may be the answer, along with the collapse of the housing market. It's right in that lull period between old and new president and if my memory is right, that's pretty much when the bank housing crisis broke the headlines too. So maybe it reads, save your money to buy Rhodium and wait until a new president is elected, which certainly could mean uncertainty in the market place since nobody knows what a new leader will do, and that's the time to buy buy buy?

Also, according to the chart, the average price is $3967 and it did jump to $10000 but only for 2 months and then it dropped to a price well below average and has stayed there. Possibly as a manufacturer, they buy in great bulk, so they had more than a couple months supply on hand..perhaps many months worth, buying rhodium on speculations, and since only a few months happened, they never payed that, so it didn't affect anything and now they are probably buying a whole boat load at current prices, which would mean that we are the ones getting screwed in the end because the cost went down more dramatically and for a longer period of time than it went up but prices did not go down for us to buy kits. So they look like hero's but are really bandits in disquise?

 

[bitshird]

It's also possible they are using one of several other Platinates, possibly Paladium, it's still around 750.00 and could be alloyed, with either Platinum or Rhodium. But given that in real life Platinum has a gray/brown tinge, and Paladium shows a subtle yellowish hue, while Rhodium is beautifully bright silver with a smidgen of white, it's what gives white gold it's beautiful color, since white gold still shows a yellowish cast even with the presence of Nickel.
I've wondered several times about some of the plating claims, I've gotten some Platinum kits that just didn't look quite right, looked more like Chrome.

Jeff the Slimline I checked was a copper slimline from WoodnWhimsies, and the only thing that a magnet would hold to as far as nib, CB,or finial and clip was the clip. These were the deluxe ones, but the transmissions are steel/albeit very thin, still magnetic.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Terry, do you need me to send you a few pieces from lets say the Jr. Statesman, full sized gent. for testing.

Jeff

Not always true in that the average jeweller wont be able to tell between 5 and 10 microns.

The better ones will be able to tell you that they believe its Rhodium or platinum or whatever but it will have to be sent to a lab for a definitive test.

It also depends on where they do the test - platings are thicker on corners and edges than on flats. Telling you its 32 microns doesnt mean anything (like the economy rate of a motor vehicle) - telling you that the average plating thickenss is 10.7 microns means a whole lot more.

Once I get the kits to the lab we will be able to clear this up once and for all

I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.

I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.

 

[terryf]

Roy, I sent you a PM.

Terry, do you need me to send you a few pieces from lets say the Jr. Statesman, full sized gent. for testing.

Jeff

Not always true in that the average jeweller wont be able to tell between 5 and 10 microns.

The better ones will be able to tell you that they believe its Rhodium or platinum or whatever but it will have to be sent to a lab for a definitive test.

It also depends on where they do the test - platings are thicker on corners and edges than on flats. Telling you its 32 microns doesnt mean anything (like the economy rate of a motor vehicle) - telling you that the average plating thickenss is 10.7 microns means a whole lot more.

Once I get the kits to the lab we will be able to clear this up once and for all

I did not know that Roy. Pretty neat info. Now lets all buy some Rhodium, prices are low! let me buy first, then all you guys buy which will drive the price up for me to sell. I see some amazing spikes on that chart.

I was taking a peak at some Rhodium and platinum online and it looks like if platings and thicknesses is a question, then any decent jeweler has the equipment to tell you what the plating is and how thick it is.

 

[terryf]

I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.

The Jr Statesman Clip is defintely magnetic.

I then hauled out a Rhodium Jr Gent FP. The clip, top and bottom caps are magnetic.

I also tested a Majestic and an Imperial and no magnetism was present.

I was, however, using a magnet a tad more powerful than your average fridge model!

 

[Smitty37]

Rust vs corrosion

Interesting Ken. I didn't try that. I wonder what lets them rust. I know they don't rust in a normal environment, but they do rust in abnormal environment as I've seen it first hand with a woodnwhimsy slim kit.

A lot of metals will corrode in salt water that won't "rust" in air. I believe it is a little different process than normal oxidation because there are other elements present.

There is a beach here in Delaware where silver coins get washed up every time a nor'easter blows through - if you don't know what you're looking for you'd never recognize them as coins or silver. They use electrolisis to clean them off.

Almost all, if not all platings are coated with a clear epoxy to keep metals like copper and silver from corroding before you can even get them turned.

Given that there seems to be no real reason for a vendor to deceive us with regard to what the base metal is...I'm prone to take their word for it.

I am told that plating thickness runs around 2 to 10 microns...perhaps more on the high priced components.

Gold as near as I can learn is never plated directly on copper there is always a barrier layer, usually nickel.

My supplier tells me they plate Gold TN and Black TN on Chrome. I know for sure that is is a silvery surface not a brassy one.

I also know for sure that Dayacom 24Kt gold is plated on a bright silvery colored surface.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

 

[Smitty37]

nickel

I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.

The Jr Statesman Clip is defintely magnetic.

I then hauled out a Rhodium Jr Gent FP. The clip, top and bottom caps are magnetic.

I also tested a Majestic and an Imperial and no magnetism was present.

I was, however, using a magnet a tad more powerful than your average fridge model!

I believe nickel is magnetic at room temperature if you use a strong enough magnet as are cobolt (sometimes added to "upgrade gold), gadolinium and of course iron. So some magnetic reaction should be the norm on 24kt gold plated parts. It might take a powerful magnet though.

 

[ed4copies]

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

Can you do similar calculations on TiGold? We are told that cost has "skyrocketed" to raise our prices to nearly double what they were five years ago---

The above information does imply that plating is a nominal, nearly non-existent cost---is this also the case with TiGold?

 

[terryf]

Nickel is magnetic at room temperature as you suggest but nickel used in electroplating is usually nickel sulphate or nickel chloride and boric acid.

This would generally not be magnetic at room temperature or certainly not noticably magnetic. The magnetic field I'm feeling is almost certainly from steel and is more than likely the base metal.

If it was a nickel plate, it wouldnt be more than 20 microns which would not allow the clip to be picked up off the table without touching it. When I bought the magnet within 1-2 inches of the clip it jumped to the magnet.

The top and bottom caps of the jr gent actually moved across the table towards the magnet.

I have just tested a Jr Statesman 22K/Rhodium Rb kit that was lying on the desk.

The Jr Statesman Clip is defintely magnetic.

I then hauled out a Rhodium Jr Gent FP. The clip, top and bottom caps are magnetic.

I also tested a Majestic and an Imperial and no magnetism was present.

I was, however, using a magnet a tad more powerful than your average fridge model!

I believe nickel is magnetic at room temperature if you use a strong enough magnet as are cobolt (sometimes added to "upgrade gold), gadolinium and of course iron. So some magnetic reaction should be the norm on 24kt gold plated parts. It might take a powerful magnet though.

 

[BRobbins629]

I just did some rough calculations and a little internet research.
...The surface area of a Sierra nib is approximately 2.5 square cm.
...Gold plating thicknesses range from .175 micron for flash coatings to 2.5 micron for heavy coatings and everywhere in between.
... For a .175 micron thickness of pure gold at $1500 per ounce, the cost of the metal would be $0.045
... For a 2.5 micron thickness of pure gold at $1500 per ounce, the cost of the metal would be $0.63. Lesser carat golds would be less as would thinner platings.

 

[terryf]

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 gram solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

 

[terryf]

Yip 1/2 gram per 8oz

2grams per 32oz (quart) is the norm which is the same ratio as above in a smaller bottle.

Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 gram solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

 

[Smitty37]

Not Electro plating

Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 ounce solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

I am not sure - would those solutions would be the same for PVD plating as for soulution plating?