Wanted: Metallurgist

[ed4copies]

Thank you Terry---I did visualize it inaccurately.

So, what we are saying is if there is one part white and 199 parts red, we will call the paint "White alloy"? Even though it is very red.

Would that be closer?

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmmm

Perhaps the Rhodium changes the atomic or molecular characteristics of the alloy sufficiently to warrant calling it "rhodium" or as in some cases "platinum.". I know that adding a very small amount of salt to the mixture changes the taste of food.

 

[terryf]

Thank you Terry---I did visualize it inaccurately.

So, what we are saying is if there is one part white and 199 parts red, we will call the paint "White alloy"? Even though it is very red.

Would that be closer?

Precisely! Only in this case we call it white alloy because the white part is so precious and we want people to know it has white in it.

 

[ed4copies]

Got it!!

Thank you!!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?

 

[terryf]

So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?

Spot on!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

So Terry are we saying that from now on I can tell customers that the plating is an rhodium alloy and not have some question my integrity?

Spot on!

Thank you, I think that clears up a lot of miss information here.

 

[Smitty37]

How about this

My supplier says their "Rhodium" (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium. That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.

Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum.

So their "rhodium" plating that they call "platinum" is in reality neither. In their defense I will say that they did not hesitate to tell me the formula.

If true, it also means that all rhodium is not the same.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

My supplier says their "Rhodium" (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium. That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.

Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum.

So their "rhodium" plating that they call "platinum" is in reality neither. In their defense I will say that they did not hesitate to tell me the formula.

If true, it also means that all rhodium is not the same.

LeRoy, I'm old and get confused easy, if your supplier calls their plating platinum what and where is the connection to Rhoudium other than rhodium is a form of platinum?

 

[KenV]

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

Jewelry is supposed to be marked as to the gold content. My wedding band is 10kt and is marked as such on the inside of the band.

What can be called "gold" would be established by each country. What is called Sterling Silver also varies from country to country.

The internet has that sorted so to speak. You can buy any type of gold on the internet from anywhere in the world.

The fact thats its stamped, to me, implies that even 1ct gold would be acceptable as the content is stated. 1/24 of the item is gold, the rest is something else.

Gold plating is usually done with 24ct gold which is the reason it rubs off so easily. Silver plating is done with silver not a silver alloy. It therefore follows that rhodium plating is done with rhodium not a 1% rhodium alloy.

Whilst to some it may be academic, to others, who sell a $600 pen with a very durable rhodium plating, I can see the potential long term issues.

Its like selling a black car and claiming its red because it has 1% red paint in the mix

I am reminded of a story told about a town I used to live in. During WW II there was a butcher in town that was selling rabbit burger -- after a lot of pressure he was cornered and admitted that he did mix a little horse meat with the rabbit -- when pressed further he acknowledged it was a 50%-50% mixture. After still more pressure, he was asked how he figured the percentages. His response was 1 rabbit to 1 horse.

 

[Smitty37]

Me too.

Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......

The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.

Why my supplier calls his plating platinum rather than white gold is beyond me. On the other hand if what he said is accurate, it has considerably more precious metal than the one analyzed.

He also says he used the same formula when I ordered Rhodium - I asked if his platinum was really rhodium and he said yes.

btw...being a member of the platinum group does not make rhodium or palladium a form of platinum. They are distinct elements themselves not isotopes.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Thanks! ...................I think:tongue:

Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......Not by much:wink:

The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.

Why my supplier calls his plating platinum rather than white gold is beyond me. On the other hand if what he said is accurate, it has considerably more precious metal than the one analyzed.

He also says he used the same formula when I ordered Rhodium - I asked if his platinum was really rhodium and he said yes.

btw...being a member of the platinum group does not make rhodium or palladium a form of platinum. They are distinct elements themselves not isotopes.LeRoy, I told you I was confused:wink:

 

[witz1976]

well then...I just got an education

 

[Penultimate]

Greetings
I used this metallurgy lab many years ago. http://www.msitesting.com/
If there is a heat treater in your area they should have a metallurgist and the equipment to do metals testing. A plater will have equipment to measure plating thickness but you need to know the plating material and the base metal. I need to get a calibration standard for our x-ray refraction machine to measure some plating thickness. Good luck.

 

[terryf]

My supplier says their "Rhodium" (Actually they call it platinum) plating is 60% gold, 20% copper and 20% Palladium. That looks to me more like a formula for 14kt white gold than anything else, although I would expect some silver in the mix as well.

Palladium is a platinum group precious metal that right now is about half the price of gold so I suppose that is how they come to call it platinum.

So their "rhodium" plating that they call "platinum" is in reality neither. In their defense I will say that they did not hesitate to tell me the formula.

If true, it also means that all rhodium is not the same.

Well Roy, I think I am actually older than you are, so......

The only relationship is that there are a group of 6 elements (metals) that are called the platinum group. Both rhodium and palladium are members of the platinum group and both are precious metals in their own right.

Why my supplier calls his plating platinum rather than white gold is beyond me. On the other hand if what he said is accurate, it has considerably more precious metal than the one analyzed.

He also says he used the same formula when I ordered Rhodium - I asked if his platinum was really rhodium and he said yes.

btw...being a member of the platinum group does not make rhodium or palladium a form of platinum. They are distinct elements themselves not isotopes.

Leroy

It sounds to me as if your supplier is trying to give you the answers he thinks you want to hear!!

 

[Smitty37]

I don't think so. Not that I don't believe he wouldn't "improve the truth" but that he'd have no way of knowing what I want to hear.

In the past I have asked him if what he called platinum was the same finish as rhodium and he said it was. I ordered some kits to be produced with a Rhodium finish. I also bought some kits from his inventory that have his platinum finish. My question would be, why on earth would he think I want to hear that the plating contains neither rhodium or platinum?

I have asked him a lot of questions about plating - all of his answers so far have been reasonable for a producer of low priced kits. Also, all of his answers can be verified by testing and he has no way of knowing I'm not doing that.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Isn't there a legal standing in this country that in order to call something like our pens Rhodium-plated, the alloy has to be of a certain percentage? As in the neighborhood of 90% minimum.
And yes, there are standard which are created, such as gold, that do not fall under these rules, because the industry has self-regulated itself by creating templates for naming the percentages.

Also, at the very least, ethically would it not be wrong to say that these kits are rhodium plated when the finish plating is way less than a majority of the substance?

It would be like saying a car is made in america because the air in the tires was pumped into them on this continent.

 

[terryf]

Jerry

I think that was the purpose of these tests. So that a sales person can maintain his or her integrity and inform a prospective client of exactly what it is they are receiving for their hard earn dollars.

I know I'd be ****ed if I was told it was X plated and later found it was only 1% of X.

I must also mention that the plating on these things is quite tough. I put an end cap on the buff yesterday (fine paste) and it took 87 seconds of buffing to get through to the base material. I didnt do it with a soft hand either. (no my stopwatch wasn't calibrated to the big ben :tongue

Aside from the content, Im convinced that this plating will hold up for many years of daily use.

I'm going to try an oxidation test next week to see if I can get one to oxidise which shouldnt be possible but lets see

Have a good Sunday ya'll!! :clown:

Isn't there a legal standing in this country that in order to call something like our pens Rhodium-plated, the alloy has to be of a certain percentage? As in the neighborhood of 90% minimum.
And yes, there are standard which are created, such as gold, that do not fall under these rules, because the industry has self-regulated itself by creating templates for naming the percentages.

Also, at the very least, ethically would it not be wrong to say that these kits are rhodium plated when the finish plating is way less than a majority of the substance?

It would be like saying a car is made in america because the air in the tires was pumped into them on this continent.

 

[LarryDNJR]

I am reminded of a story told about a town I used to live in. During WW II there was a butcher in town that was selling rabbit burger -- after a lot of pressure he was cornered and admitted that he did mix a little horse meat with the rabbit -- when pressed further he acknowledged it was a 50%-50% mixture. After still more pressure, he was asked how he figured the percentages. His response was 1 rabbit to 1 horse.

That is funny, sort of wrong but funny.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Now I'm a bit confused by Terry's results.

Electroplating involves dunking a charged item into a bath that contains solid metals....the metal is attracted to the charged item, and forms a thin layer...correct?

For items like chrome, you always dip in something like copper, and then nickle first as a base layer. Does Rhodium take a few base layers, like copper and nickle as well? Now everyone always says that the Rhodium plating is ultra-thin...wouldn't these results indicate that it's just a very quick dunk in the rhodium, to give an ultra-thin veneer to the base metals?

I don't really see the big 'conspiracy' here, but perhaps I'm interpreting the process incorrectly...can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

Andrew

 

[terryf]

Maxwell

What we're all missing is the Rhodium!!

There just aint a whole lot of it being used in the so called rhodium plating.

Now I'm a bit confused by Terry's results.

Electroplating involves dunking a charged item into a bath that contains solid metals....the metal is attracted to the charged item, and forms a thin layer...correct?

For items like chrome, you always dip in something like copper, and then nickle first as a base layer. Does Rhodium take a few base layers, like copper and nickle as well? Now everyone always says that the Rhodium plating is ultra-thin...wouldn't these results indicate that it's just a very quick dunk in the rhodium, to give an ultra-thin veneer to the base metals?

I don't really see the big 'conspiracy' here, but perhaps I'm interpreting the process incorrectly...can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

Andrew

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

 

[terryf]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

I'm getting the idea you haven't read the entire thread Maxwell :tongue:

Yip, initial test results indicate that the plating contains less than 1% rhodium but is being marketed to us a a rhodium plating rather than a rhodium alloy plating.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

As of my next show all my sales pitches will not say Rhodium plated but the plating used is a rhodium alloy. Terry thanks for all your effort.

 

[Smitty37]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

You are also thinking of the local jeweler's method of plating...that isn't the way it's done by most, if not all, pen component manufacturers. They generally use a vacuum process and vapor rather than a liquid bath.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

I'm getting the idea you haven't read the entire thread Maxwell :tongue:

Yip, initial test results indicate that the plating contains less than 1% rhodium but is being marketed to us a a rhodium plating rather than a rhodium alloy plating.

I read it, I just don't get it...isn't the plating percentage related to the amount of time that it gets dipped? I.e., if you dip the item in copper for 10 minutes, then nickle for 10 minutes, then chrome for 10 minutes, then a 4 second dip in rhodium, you'll get a VERY thin coat of rhodium...so it's pure rhodium, but becomes 1 percent of the entire mix..but no one who gets chrome plating gets upset when the chromium is only the final coat, and not 100 percent chromium...

But I don't know if that's how it works or not with pens...

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

You are also thinking of the local jeweler's method of plating...that isn't the way it's done by most, if not all, pen component manufacturers. They generally use a vacuum process and vapor rather than a liquid bath.

Ah, that is different then! Thanks Smitty, I think I understand the issue now.

 

[glycerine]

I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue. Why do I say that? Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is! We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to. Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating? Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating? Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test". Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium? At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating? Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans? Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant". What?!?!? I'll never trust that Diner again!! They lied to me!! This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
I also found this information about rhodium:
Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price. Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
No one has lied to us. They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings. There you have it...

 

[terryf]

I see - so the issue isn't that there's base metals as well, as that's part of the process...the issue is that the final dip is not giving much rhodium? Is that the crux of the matter?

I'm getting the idea you haven't read the entire thread Maxwell :tongue:

Yip, initial test results indicate that the plating contains less than 1% rhodium but is being marketed to us a a rhodium plating rather than a rhodium alloy plating.

I read it, I just don't get it...isn't the plating percentage related to the amount of time that it gets dipped? I.e., if you dip the item in copper for 10 minutes, then nickle for 10 minutes, then chrome for 10 minutes, then a 4 second dip in rhodium, you'll get a VERY thin coat of rhodium...so it's pure rhodium, but becomes 1 percent of the entire mix..but no one who gets chrome plating gets upset when the chromium is only the final coat, and not 100 percent chromium...

But I don't know if that's how it works or not with pens...

If its done layer by layer then its not a mix. Remembering of course that a mixture can generally be seperated physically whilst a compound (alloy) can only be seperated chemically.

I had a look at Dayacoms Limited Edition pens and they claim a 5 micron thickness of Rhodium plating (the only place this claim is made)

 

[terryf]

I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue. Why do I say that? Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is! We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to. Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating? Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating? Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test". Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium? At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating? Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans? Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant". What?!?!? I'll never trust that Diner again!! They lied to me!! This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
I also found this information about rhodium:
Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price. Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
No one has lied to us. They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings. There you have it...

We should be seeing anywhere from 45-85% Rh content depending on the process/method used.

 

[Smitty37]

I don't quite agree

I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue. Why do I say that? Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is! We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to. Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating? Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating? Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test". Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium? At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating? Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans? Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant". What?!?!? I'll never trust that Diner again!! They lied to me!! This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!

On the other hand, would you call a gallon of water with a thimblefull of gasoline in it gas and try to run your car with it? Good luck.

I also found this information about rhodium:
Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price. Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
No one has lied to us. They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings. There you have it...

There is a real issue I sell components to pen makers, I am the one who is telling them they are getting rhodium plating. I like to know what I'm talking about and felt the manufacturer would be telling me the truth. - I found, for instance, that the "platinum" plating that my supplier sells is in reality white gold containing palladium and no platinum at all. It is very good white gold (the cheaper is made with nickel) but it is in no way, shape or manner platinum.

Of interest, but no consequence to us, there is also an issue in the jewelry industry regarding the use of rhodium plating applied so thin (usually to white gold diamond rings to make the diamond sparkle more) that it wears off almost before they can get the ring home. That wouldn't be so bad except because it is going to be "plated anyway" they often cheapen the white gold and without the plating it has a yellowish tinge. Those rings need to be replated often.

 

[sbell111]

I understand the "issue", but it's a make believe issue. Why do I say that? Because no one has ever told us what the definition of a rhodium plating is! We are trying to "disprove" something that no one knows the definition to. Can any one of you please give me the definition of rhodum plating? Why are we as penmakers trying to define that instead of leaving it to the guys who are actually doing the plating? Why would anyone change what they tell their customers based on a "lab test". Did your supplier tell you that the last plating on your pen was 100% rhodium? At what percentage would it be acceptable for you to call it a rhodium plating? Is a cup of coffee 100% coffe beans? Heck no, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition of coffee is "a beverage made by percolation, infusion, or decoction from the roasted and ground seeds of a coffee plant". What?!?!? I'll never trust that Diner again!! They lied to me!! This is just a bitter cup of brown water!!
I also found this information about rhodium:
Solid (pure) rhodium jewelry is very rare, because the metal has both high melting point and poor malleability (making such jewelry very hard to fabricate) rather than due to its high price. Additionally, its high cost assures that most of its jewelry usage is in the form of tiny amounts of powder (commonly called rhodium sponge) dissolved into electroplating solutions.
No one has lied to us. They said it was rhodium plated and Terry proved that there is in fact rhodium in the platings. There you have it...

Agreed. This thread reminds me of last year's BOW conspiracy.

 

[Mapster]

I believe it was Smitty who asked if anyone had any problems with rhodium components, and I am just throwing in what I have found.

1. I have cut through the chrome and gunmetal of many different slimlines and it shows copper

2. I have sold a gunmetal slimline that with lots of wear from fingers, no cutting, shows silver underneath

3. I have received a black titanium band that had a non-plated part that was silver, I could then rub the rest on the black titanium off due to this area

4. I have a sierra elegant beauty that has worn black titanium as well as rhodium. The black titanium has worn into a silver, and the rhodium has worn into a darker, more black titanium looking silver

Hope that helps a little. This is interesting, and I am excited to see how it turns out

 

[bitshird]

We used to electroplate jewelry repair jobs done on White Gold with Rhodium. The stuff we used was the now hazardous Cyanide based plating solutions, the deposition isn't as dependent on time, as it is on Voltage and Amperage, even in the 1970s Rhodium plating solution which contained 1 gram of Rhodium pert quart of solution was nearly 80.00 a quart. 24 kt. gold was around 20.00 a quart. using to high of voltage left ridges in the finish and to much amperage left bubbles. I'm not sure what the problems are with the newer acid based plating solutions, other than they don't last as long, But you can't make Guyana Grape Kool Aide with them. Now Rhodium solution is or was 325.00 per QT with 2 grams per QT. and the anodes are around 75.00 keep in mind this is for small plating systems using less than a quart of bath.
Also you can bet that any of the 8,000.00 material was sold off long time ago, those guys play the metals market as much as any one, so even though they may have lost a little, they aren't going to loose a lot.

 

[mredburn]

Consumer protection and truth in advertising is at the base of the problem. Is it what you say it is and are selling it as. Is it really what your paying for when you buy it. Can there be liabilities to you as a reseller if it isn't. Copper is used as a base plating in plating baths because its cheap and conducts electricity well. Nickel seals the copper and produces a white shine and is hard wearing for the base of the other platings. Rhodium is used to make a brighter white over white gold to help diamonds pick up the white tint of the rhodium making them look whiter to the eye than they are. IT does'nt take a thick layer and its mostly in places that don't have much wear. Like the lower areas of the clusters on cheap diamond rings. Bath platings depending on the base solutions can have a thinner plating by reducing the dip time but sometimes hit a limit that immersing them longer does not build up more metal. They must be re cleaned and re dipped to build up the platings. Hence "triple dipped" the citrus based solutions of Dalmar don't have that problem and the longer you leave them in the heavier the plating is. Although no one is complaining or has complained about the wear factor of the plating thickness. There is a distinct possibility that someone may complain about false representation to the consumer. I am reminded of the post in in the" Client from Hell" Forum, A client had to remove his "contains real bacon" claim because it contained less than 2% Bacon. He had to switch to "great Bacon taste" or "tastes like real bacon". If their are no standards in place to hold the products plating levels to their may need to be in the future. How high a percentage or microns thickness is enough to legally call it "rhodium plated". and not "looks like rhodium plating" or "feels like great Rhodium plating"' If we as a cross section of the pen community demand answers and acceptable levels of metal in the platings of the kits we buy they will have to comply on certain levels to keep our business. Remember their first resposibility is profit, their second is customer satisfaction. If customer satisfaction effects their profits they will make the changes.

 

[Smitty37]

I believe it was Smitty who asked if anyone had any problems with rhodium components, and I am just throwing in what I have found.

1. I have cut through the chrome and gunmetal of many different slimlines and it shows copper.... The base material for a lot of pen kits is copper.

2. I have sold a gunmetal slimline that with lots of wear from fingers, no cutting, shows silver underneath...The "silver" is usually actually nickel which is often used as a substrait.

3. I have received a black titanium band that had a non-plated part that was silver, I could then rub the rest on the black titanium off due to this area....Shouldn't happen. Properly applied black TN is acutally partially absorbed by the substrait and even a very thin film shouldn't wear off very quickly.

4. I have a sierra elegant beauty that has worn black titanium as well as rhodium. The black titanium has worn into a silver, and the rhodium has worn into a darker, more black titanium looking silver. Black TN is often applied on a Chrome substrait while rhodium is usually applied over nickel or even silver.

Hope that helps a little. This is interesting, and I am excited to see how it turns out

Maybe (particularily we vendors) we will all try to become a little better versed in the details of plating.

 

[Smitty37]

Consumer protection and truth in advertising is at the base of the problem. Is it what you say it is and are selling it as. Is it really what your paying for when you buy it. Can there be liabilities to you as a reseller if it isn't. Copper is used as a base plating in plating baths because its cheap and conducts electricity well. Nickel seals the copper and produces a white shine and is hard wearing for the base of the other platings. Rhodium is used to make a brighter white over white gold to help diamonds pick up the white tint of the rhodium making them look whiter to the eye than they are. IT does'nt take a thick layer and its mostly in places that don't have much wear. Like the lower areas of the clusters on cheap diamond rings. Bath platings depending on the base solutions can have a thinner plating by reducing the dip time but sometimes hit a limit that immersing them longer does not build up more metal. They must be re cleaned and re dipped to build up the platings. Hence "triple dipped" the citrus based solutions of Dalmar don't have that problem and the longer you leave them in the heavier the plating is. Although no one is complaining or has complained about the wear factor of the plating thickness. There is a distinct possibility that someone may complain about false representation to the consumer. I am reminded of the post in in the" Client from Hell" Forum, A client had to remove his "contains real bacon" claim because it contained less than 2% Bacon. He had to switch to "great Bacon taste" or "tastes like real bacon". If their are no standards in place to hold the products plating levels to their may need to be in the future. How high a percentage or microns thickness is enough to legally call it "rhodium plated". and not "looks like rhodium plating" or "feels like great Rhodium plating"' If we as a cross section of the pen community demand answers and acceptable levels of metal in the platings of the kits we buy they will have to comply on certain levels to keep our business. Remember their first resposibility is profit, their second is customer satisfaction. If customer satisfaction effects their profits they will make the changes.

Not in my mind it isn't. The heart of the problem in my mind is personal integrity. I do not want to mislead the buyer whether it's against the law or not.