Wanted: Metallurgist

[terryf]

No, PVD (physical vapour deposition) uses a vacuum into which gases are pumped. The type of gas depends on the plating required. It gives a very even plating as opposed to EP.

Electroplating is a liquid process involving solutions.

Terry here is as link for the same company with 1/2 ounce solutions.http://www.ottofrei.com/store/home.php?cat=517

The rhodium plating solution sold by OttoFrei contains 2grams per quart. This is consistent with most other manufaturers including Cohler.

Heres a link
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=1558

Jeff I noticed that also, it hit it's high in April and in July drooped like a rock. It had a steady clime from July of 06 to its high in April of 08 and dropped from July to Nov 08 to it's 5 year low of $760. As my understanding goes in the research I have don it takes 1/4 gram to make a gallon solution that would be tarnish proof as there are approx. 28 grams to an ounce thats $142.00 a gram divide by 4=$35 and a gallon solution would plate how many? Maybe a few hundred? And I sure they buy their solutions and us vats that hold many gallons bringing cost down. Fine jewerly is plated using solutions from 1/2 gram to 1 gram and I just don't think out plating is using that much so the end cost is just pennies per unit. I have a Jewerly store that is very high end in town that has done a lot of work for me, I'll ask him on tuesday how much is he paying for the Rhoudium solution he replates rings with and how many can he plate with each quart....

I am not sure - would those solutions would be the same for PVD plating as for soulution plating?

 

[Smitty37]

MY Supplier

My Supplier once told me that they electro plate only the enamels...the rest of their platings I am pretty sure he said were PVD ... I am checking with him on that to make sure. I have a feeling that the PVD method might use less of the precious metal .... I'm also pretty sure that it is cheaper if doing things on a large scale and easier to get the entire piece plated. But that is just from superficial reading on the subject and not really discussing it with an expert.

 

[terryf]

It would certainly make more sense to use the PVD method as it is a better finish and will certainly be cheaper.

Would be quite quite costly to set up though.

This would make sense as you cant electroplate TiN - it would have to be PVD. If they use it for one they most likely use it for all.

Thanks for that Smitty.

My Supplier once told me that they electro plate only the enamels...the rest of their platings I am pretty sure he said were PVD ... I am checking with him on that to make sure. I have a feeling that the PVD method might use less of the precious metal .... I'm also pretty sure that it is cheaper if doing things on a large scale and easier to get the entire piece plated. But that is just from superficial reading on the subject and not really discussing it with an expert.

 

[Smitty37]

HMMM

It would certainly make more sense to use the PVD method as it is a better finish and will certainly be cheaper.

Would be quite quite costly to set up though.

This would make sense as you cant electroplate TiN - it would have to be PVD. If they use it for one they most likely use it for all.

Thanks for that Smitty.

My Supplier once told me that they electro plate only the enamels...the rest of their platings I am pretty sure he said were PVD ... I am checking with him on that to make sure. I have a feeling that the PVD method might use less of the precious metal .... I'm also pretty sure that it is cheaper if doing things on a large scale and easier to get the entire piece plated. But that is just from superficial reading on the subject and not really discussing it with an expert.

They now tell me that they do use a vacuum method but PVD is specifically used only for Titanium. There are a number of vacuum methods other than PVD so I'm not sure but at any rate it is not electro plating. I think most jewelers probably electro plate because that is what I see offered in small kits for individula item plating.

They do use manganese steel for some (I think most) of their clips but copper for the tips and bands.

 

[ragz]

This may be a little naive of me but...
Why not ask the manufacturer of the kits you are interested in? I would imagine that Dayacom is the manufacturer of the vast majority of the kits. I would also think that they would be willing to give you some basic info that would answer your questions just not everything since they may have some proprietary methods they don't want leaked.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

If what Ed Brown thinks that the Chinese are telling us what we want to hear anything we learn from Dayacom would be suspect...

 

[glycerine]

trust no-one...

 

[Hubert H]

When you feel good about when, where and how to test I would be glad to share some kits. The question for me is about kits that are almost the same coming from different manufactures. Glad you are looking into it. HWH

 

[johncrane]

I'm interested in this too Ed! i have turned down ground down a fair few kits, most of the parts are brass and copper with a plating finish, i have also wipe off 24k gold plating with acetone, other kits marked Tit gold i tried steel wool then Acetone and the plating held up really good, i think the cheap kits we buy is what we get, with high dollar kits i have not been silly enough to test,the test iv done have been for my own peace of mind.

 

[terryf]

A quick update...

I popped into the lab this afternoon and dropped off a few kits.

The process has begun........watch this space

 

[Smitty37]

Thin Film

Thin Film is one of two methods (at least) of applying TN finish, The other is called "coating" and it is thicker. Thicker is not necessarily better for wear resistance due to the way that Titanium Nitride adheres to the base metal.
They do not call Titanium Nitride "plating" because it is not metal it is a ceramic.
My supplier says they do thin film and the sub is copper plated with chrome before the TN is applied. Having seen a couple that were improperly finished, I tend to believe them.

 

[terryf]

Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about 35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the rhodium is 0.05%.

The actual rhodium readings measured between 0.25 - 0.41% - its given as <1% so that a margin of error is built into the return as this was the metal in question. Obviously, the higher the percentage content, the smaller the measurement of uncertainty becomes.

The variance between the readings (0.25 to 0.41) comes from 5 different kits which validates the results.

The base material is made of zinc (4%), nickel (31%) and copper (58%) along with a few other traces.

Between these two layers is a substantial nickel layer, as suspected.

Ed made a very good suggestion - to compare a rhodium Jr Gent kit against the results of the higher end kits we have analysed. I only have one rhodium jr Gent so the results may be a little skewed but it will give us an idea!

More to follow.....

 

[ed4copies]

Very interesting beginning Terry!!

Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about 35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the rhodium is 0.05%.

When I add this up, I arrive at 88% (35+31+22)
What am I missing?
(Remember, I admitted knowing nothing about this process).

 

[terryf]

Very interesting beginning Terry!!

Initial feedback is the that the plating has less than 1% Rhodium, about 35% nickel, 31% zinc and 22% copper. Measurement of encertainty on the rhodium is 0.05%.

When I add this up, I arrive at 88% (35+31+22)
What am I missing?
(Remember, I admitted knowing nothing about this process).

Yip, bear in mind we were looking at rhodium content so I just took down the rhodium plus the other main component elements. If you'd like a complete list I'll get it from the lab sheet :biggrin:

 

[wolftat]

Aside from my normal skepticism, the recent "conversation" led me to do research on the price of rhodium. I found that it was UNDER $1000, in 2005.

By 2008, it was in excess of $9000.

Indeed, today it is back down to the $1000 neighborhood.

I find it incredulous that our suppliers "ate" a 900% increase in the cost of ANY raw material, that they are using--so my hypothesis has to be, "this element is not being used". Now, a scientific test could find I am incorrect---I hope. That would make the providers of "rhodium plated kits" (some of which I sell) into heros.

Wouldn't that be nice????

Maybe they were just using old stock when the prices went up and didn't feel it would be fair to raise the prices since it wasn't effecting them. Almost got that typed without cracking a grin too.:biggrin:

 

[terryf]

Almost got that typed without cracking a grin too.:biggrin:

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[ed4copies]

Uh-huh!!! That'll happen!!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

The actual rhodium readings measured between 0.25 - 0.41% - its given as <1% so that a margin of error is built into the return as this was the metal in question. Obviously, the higher the percentage content, the smaller the measurement of uncertainty becomes.

The variance between the readings (0.25 to 0.41) comes from 5 different kits which validates the results.

Terry, we now know there is SOME rhodium but as we've been led to understand the plating is in microns would the percentages be enough to be thick enough to be considered plated in rhodium?

 

[ed4copies]

Or, could we assume that the rhodium, used on the points where the most wear will occur, will be worn fairly rapidly and we will be left with shiny nickle plating. This method is widely used to make any plating look better.

When we did gold, we were warned the nickle could become apparent as the gold wore--of course you don't WEAR gold plating on Stained glass, like you would wear plating on the nib of an Imperial pen.

At least preliminarily, we know we can make an accurate statement: "Mr. Customer, this is less than 1/200th rhodium, which the manufacturers represent as "rhodium plated".

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I'm not convinced one way or the other until some one with knowledge of platings chimes in, but most certainly we now know that rhodium is used but before we jump on anyone's band wagon about weather it will or not wear off lets see how many of us who have sold these over the years have had wear problems. Two years ago we had some pitting, but that seemed to be on a few cases and I've haven't heard any more complaints. I have not had a single one ever sent back for plating problems as to wearing off but have had a few Chrome and gold cigars come back with worn platings. That was my main reason to stop doing any cigars or any gold platings three years ago.

 

[Smitty37]

Jewelry makers have fits about this

Rhodium plating is common in jewely and the industry seems to have fits about it. I just spent an hour reading and trying to understand a little but it (hodium) can apparently be plated so thin that it wears off rings in weeks or at time even days. I have asked my supplier what percentage of rhodium is in the rhodium plating they use....be interesting to see what they say. One of the problems cited in the stuff I just read is they they plate it just enough to make it shine using an electroless proces.

 

[ed4copies]

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.

 

[terryf]

Well I can tell you this, its a substantial thickness and not likely to come off in a rush!! The exact thickness I will be able to tell you in due course.

Roy, let me give you an example;
Gold comes in varying carats as you well know. 18ct is 75% gold and 25% other metals which could be copper, zinc, palladium, silver etc depending on the required color. 9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

Is this making any sense??

Another thing that we need to consider is that the actual plating mixture may be named rhodium plating mixture and therefore, when applied to an object, may be called rhodium plated - the fact that it has rhodium in it is a bonus and means that the claim is substantiated.

One last thing, talk to any jeweller and they will tell you that rhodium plating on a white gold ring is quite common. They will also tell you that you will need to have it replated from time to time as it will wear off.

I would consider making the statement, "Mr Customer, the metal components of this pen are plated with a Rhodium alloy."

If you say 1/200th, he might ask for a substantial discount :biggrin:

 

[Russianwolf]

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

 

[Smitty37]

Implications

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.

It kind of implies to me that the premium charged for rhodium plated components might be a tad excessive. It almost seems to me that silver over a nickel substrait would be ok...the silver might wear but with the nickel substrait it wouldn't show much and the product would be about as bright as Rhodium.

 

[terryf]

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

I dont know much about gold in the USA but in South Africa you get two main alloys, 9ct (375) and 18ct (750). In Europe its mostly 14ct (585) and 18ct (750).

 

[sbell111]

For me, this thread is purely academic. I think we have mentioned a pen's plating twice, so far. Both times, the customer couldn't care less.

 

[Russianwolf]

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

I dont know much about gold in the USA but in South Africa you get two main alloys, 9ct (375) and 18ct (750). In Europe its mostly 14ct (585) and 18ct (750).

10ct 14ct and 18ct are the most common in jewelry here.

 

[glycerine]

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.

Look at it this way. I drink alot of tea... which is really nothing but water. Instead of calling it tea leaf flavored water, they still call it tea!

 

[terryf]

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.

It kind of implies to me that the premium charged for rhodium plated components might be a tad excessive. It almost seems to me that silver over a nickel substrait would be ok...the silver might wear but with the nickel substrait it wouldn't show much and the product would be about as bright as Rhodium.

I'm not sure I agree Smitty. Thats one of the reasons they rhodium plate white gold, so that it looks really nice n shiny! Nickel has some serious cutaneous reactions in some people and might, therefore, not be permitted for sale in places like Europe where nickel content is governed.

 

[IPD_Mr]

Lets just say there is no "mass conspiracy" in the pen industry which has been implied.

So you are using a pinch of Rhodium for the shine, but you don't want to use too much so that it is durable. If this is the idea behind Rhodium plating, I am curious where the issue lies?

 

[Smitty37]

10kt

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

Jewelry is supposed to be marked as to the gold content. My wedding band is 10kt and is marked as such on the inside of the band.

What can be called "gold" would be established by each country. What is called Sterling Silver also varies from country to country.

 

[terryf]

9ct is 37.5% gold plus copper, zinc, silver etc so theoretically we shouldn't call it a gold ring but rather a silver ring as a normal yellow 9ct ring contains approximately 42.5% silver, 37.5% gold and 20% copper!!

If memory serves, gold goes down to 10ct. any lower and you aren't supposed to call it gold anymore. Why 10ct and not 12ct has always baffled me since at least at 12ct you can say its mostly gold.

Jewelry is supposed to be marked as to the gold content. My wedding band is 10kt and is marked as such on the inside of the band.

What can be called "gold" would be established by each country. What is called Sterling Silver also varies from country to country.

The internet has that sorted so to speak. You can buy any type of gold on the internet from anywhere in the world.

The fact thats its stamped, to me, implies that even 1ct gold would be acceptable as the content is stated. 1/24 of the item is gold, the rest is something else.

Gold plating is usually done with 24ct gold which is the reason it rubs off so easily. Silver plating is done with silver not a silver alloy. It therefore follows that rhodium plating is done with rhodium not a 1% rhodium alloy.

Whilst to some it may be academic, to others, who sell a $600 pen with a very durable rhodium plating, I can see the potential long term issues.

Its like selling a black car and claiming its red because it has 1% red paint in the mix

 

[Smitty37]

True

Again this thread shows that everyone has to have their own comfort level.

For ME, telling someone something that is 1-200th true would not be MY choice. But, to each his own.

It kind of implies to me that the premium charged for rhodium plated components might be a tad excessive. It almost seems to me that silver over a nickel substrait would be ok...the silver might wear but with the nickel substrait it wouldn't show much and the product would be about as bright as Rhodium.

I'm not sure I agree Smitty. Thats one of the reasons they rhodium plate white gold, so that it looks really nice n shiny! Nickel has some serious cutaneous reactions in some people and might, therefore, not be permitted for sale in places like Europe where nickel content is governed.

What reading I did kind of supports what you say. Going on what I've read "White Gold" can't be made with nickel and sold as jewelry in most of Europe but it can in the USA.

Rhodium plating as done on white gold is a cosmetic plating that is not intended to have great wear characteristics. I've seen it described as simple process often done right in the store.

My contention is - if there is so little of the expensive metal there, and the process is no different than other plating processes, what is the premium price for?

It will be interesting to see what my supplier says.

 

[Fibonacci]

My contention is - if there is so little of the expensive metal there, and the process is no different than other plating processes, what is the premium price for?

It will be interesting to see what my supplier says.

Because people will pay for it.

 

[Russianwolf]

Okay, 10K or 10ct is the lowest that can be called gold in the US.

http://reviews.ebay.com/Meaning-of-...18K-14K-10K-9K-9CT_W0QQugidZ10000000006395947

8K and 9K are used elsewhere in the world, but apparently nothing lower is used as being called "gold"

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I'm still waiting for someone to come forward and tell us that they have had ware issues with their rhodium plated pens other than the pitting we had 2 years ago.
and remember that we're talking about the plating not the entire metal content which would only be a micron or so thick so your 1/200th part rhodium analogy is not valid, if I'm reading Terry's results correctly.

 

[ed4copies]

If I'm reading it correctly, you can't SEE the wear.

Rhodium comes off, you are left with shiny nickle. NOT a bad look, just not rhodium.

It really doesn't matter---we can all SAY whatever we wish, now we just know more about what we are selling.

 

[terryf]

I'm still waiting for someone to come forward and tell us that they have had ware issues with their rhodium plated pens other than the pitting we had 2 years ago.
and remember that we're talking about the plating not the entire metal content which would only be a micron or so thick so your 1/200th part rhodium analogy is not valid, if I'm reading Terry's results correctly.

Well to put my head on a block so to speak as we need to measure it properly, Id guesstimate at least 3-5 microns perhaps a bit thicker.

The 1/200th is incorrect in so much in that I said <1%. Analytical terms really. So in essence, one could say that 1% of the plating is rhodium which I think is what Ed was implying.

I dont think we should read too much into this yet - lets finish the tests first and then get out the ropes. Im sure Wolftat is still up for bringing along his tree :biggrin:

 

[terryf]

If I'm reading it correctly, you can't SEE the wear.

Rhodium comes off, you are left with shiny nickle. NOT a bad look, just not rhodium.

It really doesn't matter---we can all SAY whatever we wish, now we just know more about what we are selling.

This is not true Ed. It is an alloy which contains the rhodium and therefore is spread throughout - its not a very thin covering of rhodium, its a very thin covering of alloy containing rhodium!!

Think of it as mixing 1% white paint into another color - the white doesnt come off as its part of the mixture.