Yet another "Which 1 to buy?" thread.

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BSea

BSea

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Ok, I told my wife I was getting a new metal lathe. That loosely translates to I begged & pleaded, and she finally gave in. And I don't care what she says, I really was planning on re-tiling the bathroom all along.:rolleyes:

Ok, back on topic.

My plans right now are to use it mostly for custom pens. Cutting threads is a must. I want to make some mandrels for custom pens. So far, all the mandrels I've made using my wood lathe just aren't working as well as I'd like them to work. And I'd like to make some custom parts like nibs and centerbands. There are some other non pen related things I'm going to make too, but any of these metal lathes should do the job just fine.

Here are the 3 I'm looking at right now.

MicroLux 7 x 16

HiTorque 7 x 12

LatheMaster 8 x 14

So here are my questions.

The MicroLux 7 X 16 looks about right, but I see nothing in the specs about metric threads. Right now I use the 12 mm 3 start for caps on my custom pens, and I'd like to be able to cut those threads on the barrel with the lathe. So those of you with the micro lux, does it do metric threads?

Most of the other things I plan on using it for can be done on any of the 7 x XX lathes.

The HiTorque is shorter, but from what I can tell, is just about the same except for using mm for the controls vrs tru inch like the MicroLux & LatheMaster

It does have the advantage of being from TMS which seems to have the best support from what I've read. And since I don't have anyone locally I can rely on for help, this may be important. It also says that it does both inch & metric threads. In the long run that may not be very important at all. But right now all my taps & dies are metric.

Last, is the 8 x 14 LatheMaster.

It looks to be a much heavier duty lathe. At least it weighs over twice as much. It also come with 2 chucks with the 3 jaw being a 4" vrs 3" like the other two. For pen, it's not an issue, but down the road, who knows? It also comes with a steady rest and a follow rest. I just don't know if I'd use them much if at all. If it had the VS like the other two, I would be sold. I don't seem to find anyone here that has one, or has any experience with one, but the reviews seem really good. I have called the number, but I've never reached anyone. That sort of bothers me, but I haven't left a call back number, so maybe that's just the way they operate.


So anything anyone could suggest would be helpful. This includes any other machine that you think I should be looking at. I should point out that I really hate buying things twice. And the size of all three have me just a little concerned. But then I could learn on one of these, then maybe I'd feel more confident about buying a larger used lathe down the road. Right now, since I have zero experience with a metal lathe, I'd feel better about buying new.

I'm going to call all 3 of them Tuesday to go over some things. So hopefully, I'll know more by then that I know now. That should not be too hard.:redface:
 
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Bob - I think you will find the hitorque to be too short once you have a jaw chuck on one end and a jacobs on the other. From your list there your 7 x 16 is your best option. It is a darn good machine, just ask Chuck. :tongue:
 
Bob:
I've been looking at and asking questions about the MicroLux 7x16 for some time. Additionally, I've played with this lathe a bit and it is far superior to my old junker Sherline.

Several of our Florida members have either this lathe or the MicroLux 7x14 and each member that I have questioned, loves the MicroLux. When I make my new lathe purchase, it'll be either the 7 x14 or the 7x16 MicroLux.
 
There is no doubt that all three will do as they say on the tin, and you will get loads of people saying they are just fine.

For me, you have to go bigger. 9x20 is the normal starting point. Mine is a 10x21 and I often curse not getting a bigger one.
Just it's weight and length alone is a great advantage.

Metric is the way to go, BUT NOT with a fixed gearbox. I can't understand why anyone would get a fixed box except for initial lack of knowledge or pure laziness. They are incredibly limiting. A full set of loose changegears will do an almost limitless combinations of thread lead, metric or imperial.
You can also arrange them so you can do stuff like doing only one spiral over a full pen length. Try that with a fixed box.:biggrin:

Later on you may want to do a little milling with a vertical slide or mount a rotary table on the bed for example. You want as much space as possible.
You may not invisage bolting other machines to your lathe like I do, but you will regret buying a small lathe if you ever want to try. :wink:

Oh, BTW....in my NSHO :tongue:, Variable Speed is a must. Not so much for regular turning but really really useful for threading. :biggrin:
 
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the Microlux 7 x 16 does not do metric threads it has imperial lead screws, which means standard inch threads. It may be possible to cut metric threads by adding a 127 tooth gear and figuring out the gear ratios. I would not recommend it for a beginner. Even with thread cutting capability most of us still use taps and dies for threading.
We use a tap guide and die guide in the tail stock.
 
Bob,

I went from a Grizzly 7x12 to a LMS 8.5x16. I have been very happy with it. It has several features that were not on the 7x12. Auto cross feed, lead screw cover, tachometer, quick release tailstock lever and a lots of extra weight. It also has the capability of adding a mill on the back. I have not cut threads with it yet, that will come as needed. By the way, it does have the 127 tooth gear included. I think it is a very nice table top lathe but of course it does have it's limitations.

Ben
 
Thanks for all the replies. It seems that cutting threads isn't one of the priorities I thought it would be with a metal lathe. However, there are still a lot of things I have in mind for using it. I spent about a half hour with Bruce Robbins just talking about lathes, and what I could do & not do. Mostly what I could do. And based on that, and what everyone has said so far, I'm leaning toward the MicroLux right now.


skiprat said:
For me, you have to go bigger. 9x20 is the normal starting point. Mine is a 10x21 and I often curse not getting a bigger one.
Just it's weight and length alone is a great advantage.
Click to expand...

Part of my problem with going much bigger is space. I'm somewhat limited in how large I can go. I think that may not be an issue in a few years, but it is today. So I doubt I'll go any larger than 7 x 16. And the other is money. Most of the machines that are bigger seem to use belt settings to change speeds. At least the ones from Grizzley do until you get in the $3k range & above. I'm trying to figure out a way to justify the 8 1/2 x 16 HiTorque lathe. There just isn't enough tile in my house.:biggrin:

skiprat said:
Metric is the way to go, BUT NOT with a fixed gearbox. I can't understand why anyone would get a fixed box except for initial lack of knowledge or pure laziness. They are incredibly limiting. A full set of loose changegears will do an almost limitless combinations of thread lead, metric or imperial.
You can also arrange them so you can do stuff like doing only one spiral over a full pen length. Try that with a fixed box.:biggrin:
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Well, I certainly qualify in the "Lack of knowledge" area.:rolleyes: I'm guessing that the fixed box is where you don't have to physically remove & change out gears, but just make a few settings based on the charts. Is that correct? I'll have to ask about the threading when I contact the manufactures.
skiprat said:
Later on you may want to do a little milling with a vertical slide or mount a rotary table on the bed for example. You want as much space as possible.
You may not invisage bolting other machines to your lathe like I do, but you will regret buying a small lathe if you ever want to try. :wink:
Click to expand...
That was something that Bruce & I discussed. I wondered about the milling operations that could be done on the lathe without actually having a mill attached. He told me there were options for mounting a dremel tool. We also discussed the milling attachment option that most of these machines have. It's going to be something I'll wait on for awhile. And while it's true that down the road I may regret not getting something bigger, I need to be somewhat practical today. Now next year . . . . . . who knows?

mredburn said:
the Microlux 7 x 16 does not do metric threads it has imperial lead screws, which means standard inch threads. It may be possible to cut metric threads by adding a 127 tooth gear and figuring out the gear ratios. I would not recommend it for a beginner. Even with thread cutting capability most of us still use taps and dies for threading.
We use a tap guide and die guide in the tail stock.
Click to expand...
I'm probably giving the threading thing too much weight. It just seems like using the lathe to cut threads would be the most accurate way to do it. And I'll be sure & ask when I talk with them this week. I want to know even if I don't use it as much as I 1st thought.


BKelley said:
Bob,

I went from a Grizzly 7x12 to a LMS 8.5x16. I have been very happy with it. It has several features that were not on the 7x12. Auto cross feed, lead screw cover, tachometer, quick release tailstock lever and a lots of extra weight. It also has the capability of adding a mill on the back. I have not cut threads with it yet, that will come as needed. By the way, it does have the 127 tooth gear included. I think it is a very nice table top lathe but of course it does have it's limitations.

Ben
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Is an auto cross feed something that's used much? I could see in a real production environment that it could be useful, but for a hobby machine, it seems like over kill. The extra weight makes a lot of sense. And the capability to add a mill has me thinking about down the road too. I may have to seriously consider this model.

Thanks again for all the info. I'm still doing research, so if you think of anything else, let me know.
 
I have the Hi Torque 7x12, and so far I like it. I have not run into any pen projects (or any other projects for that matter) where the 12" length was insufficient; it may help that I got a collet chuck, which doesn't stick out as much as a jaw chuck.

For cutting threads, first of all, if you have suitable taps and dies then you'll probably want to use them instead of single-point threading on the lathe. Second of all, with an imperial lead screw and the provided gears you can do a really wide variety of thread pitches... but not true metric. There are charts and calculators that will tell you how to get metric pitches, but they will be off by a fraction of a percent. LMS has an on-line calculator that tells you which gears to use, and how far from "true" the pitch will be. They also sell a metric lead screw, which gives you true metric thread pitches (but makes your imperial thread pitches off by a fraction of a percent).

Overall, the MicroLux is probably virtually the same machine as the LMS. The differences would be length, price, included accessories, and shipping. If the metric lead screw is important to you, you'll need to see if you can find one for the x16... it looks like LMS sells them for x10, x12, and x14 but not x16. In my opinion, the true inch vs. metric cross and compound feed screws are not really an issue for pen making.
 
azamiryou said:
...

For cutting threads, first of all, if you have suitable taps and dies then you'll probably want to use them instead of single-point threading on the lathe. Second of all, with an imperial lead screw and the provided gears you can do a really wide variety of thread pitches... but not true metric. There are charts and calculators that will tell you how to get metric pitches, but they will be off by a fraction of a percent. LMS has an on-line calculator that tells you which gears to use, and how far from "true" the pitch will be. They also sell a metric lead screw, which gives you true metric thread pitches (but makes your imperial thread pitches off by a fraction of a percent).

...
Click to expand...

I just looked at the LMS web page for the Hi Torque and at least twice in the descriptions it says it does metric threads through the change-out of one of the gears. The user manual (2010) says that, too and shows a chart of metric pitches available. The only caveat they have is that you can't use the threading dial when turning metric threads and you need to leave the lead screw engaged throughout the whole process. Same as with my old Jet lathe because of the Imperial lead screw pitch. Are they lying, misleading, wrong... about the metric threading?

Cheers,
Rich

(edit after doing a little more research ... The gear train on that lathe has an 80 tooth transposing gear which mated with the 21 tooth metric change gear and a subsequent easy 3:1 reduction gives you a conversion ratio of 1.2698412. That's a common metric gear conversion and is close enough to the perfect 1.27 for most applications over short distances. The ratio error is .00016, so, ... this lathe is not perfectly metrically accurate. It's close enough for anybody in the pen world.)
 
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Here's the LMS calculator: Change Gears - LittleMachineShop.com

You can pick your lathe or use it for any arbitrary lathe by giving the lead screw thread and available gears. The LMS lathe comes with a 21-tooth gear; apparently many others don't. This gear gets you much closer on some metric threads.

For some metric pitches, the 21-tooth gear is no help and the error can be quite a bit larger. E.g., .8mm pitch is off by .088% (compared to .012% for 1mm pitch).

You are correct this is still a tiny difference over the short distances we typically thread, so probably not an issue for many penmakers. Just something to be aware of when choosing a lathe, so that if this is important to you, you can choose a suitable lathe.
 
Nice LMS calculator. Thanks for the link. Yeah, an error of less than 9 microns over 10 pitches at 1mm pitch is something I wouldn't lose sleep over. My next pen will have a 10mm pitch to make unscrewing happening in ... what ... quickly! :biggrin: Anybody doing bayonet closures?

Cheers,
Rich
 
Rich,

You are quite right about the auto cross feed, very little use in pen turning, but suppose you decide to make a set of aluminum hand wheels or you add a mill to the back of the lathe. For myself, I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. Let us know what you do and any way we can help.

Ben
 
azamiryou said:
Here's the LMS calculator: Change Gears - LittleMachineShop.com

You can pick your lathe or use it for any arbitrary lathe by giving the lead screw thread and available gears. The LMS lathe comes with a 21-tooth gear; apparently many others don't. This gear gets you much closer on some metric threads.

For some metric pitches, the 21-tooth gear is no help and the error can be quite a bit larger. E.g., .8mm pitch is off by .088% (compared to .012% for 1mm pitch).

You are correct this is still a tiny difference over the short distances we typically thread, so probably not an issue for many penmakers. Just something to be aware of when choosing a lathe, so that if this is important to you, you can choose a suitable lathe.
Click to expand...

One question I didn't get answered is will the 21 tooth gear work with the other lathes I have in mind, and does it really make that much of a difference. I called LMS today, but they still had several people off of work from the holiday, and they asked if I could call back tomorrow.

Even if it does work with the lathe I end up with, I'll probably not buy it right away, but I'll see what happens based on the gears that come with the lathe. If they work ok, I'll skip the 21 tooth gear till I find a use for it.

BKelley said:
Rich,

You are quite right about the auto cross feed, very little use in pen turning, but suppose you decide to make a set of aluminum hand wheels or you add a mill to the back of the lathe. For myself, I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. Let us know what you do and any way we can help.

Ben
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I'd love to have a lathe that had this option (even though I don't know exactly what I'd initially use it for):confused:. It will have to wait till my next lathe I'm afraid. I'm pretty set on either the MicroLux 7 x 16, or the Big Dog 7 x 14. I talked about the BG 7 x 14 in another thread. The pluses for it are about $200 worth of extras. One of them being a 4" chuck. This allows for larger stock through the spindle than a 3" chuck.

The big advantage of the microlux is the extra 2 inches, and no hi /low speed setting.

One person in another thread talked about the extra shipping for a lathe from LMS vrs MicoMark. The reason is that MicroMark ships UPS, and most of the others use a freight company. But when talking with Big Dog Metal Works, I found out that if you can ship to a business rather than a residence, the shipping is just $10 higher than MicroMark. And I have a buddy that I can have it shipped to, so that will save me about $40.

Either way, I'll probably order it tomorrow since that's the last day the MicroLux is on sale.
 
BSea said:
...

One question I didn't get answered is will the 21 tooth gear work with the other lathes I have in mind, ....
...
Click to expand...

probably not ...

You'll need to call the other makers and see if the transposing gear they use 1) has the same number of teeth (a 21-tooth gear is just one of several gear train combos used to get to metric threads), 2) same pitch diameter and pressure angle, and 3) same size hole in the gear with or without keyway, and 4) thickness. Just 'cause a gear has 21 teeth does not at all make it interchangeable with someone else's gear.

If you really want metric threads and not an imperial approximation then you'll need a gear train that has the transposing gear set. You need to decide. No pressure :biggrin:

Cheers,
Rich
 
Rich L said:
BSea said:
...

One question I didn't get answered is will the 21 tooth gear work with the other lathes I have in mind, ....
...
Click to expand...

probably not ...

You'll need to call the other makers and see if the transposing gear they use 1) has the same number of teeth (a 21-tooth gear is just one of several gear train combos used to get to metric threads), 2) same pitch diameter and pressure angle, and 3) same size hole in the gear with or without keyway, and 4) thickness. Just 'cause a gear has 21 teeth does not at all make it interchangeable with someone else's gear.

If you really want metric threads and not an imperial approximation then you'll need a gear train that has the transposing gear set. You need to decide. No pressure :biggrin:

Cheers,
Rich
Click to expand...
Actually, it will according to the information on LMS. If you look at the compatibility tab on the page, it shows it works with both lathes I'm considering.
 
Rich L said:
probably not ...

You'll need to call the other makers ... Just 'cause a gear has 21 teeth does not at all make it interchangeable with someone else's gear.
Click to expand...

These 7x machines are highly compatible because they are all actually from the same maker. LMS, Micro Mark, Grizzly, Harbor Freight, etc. just choose some options and have it painted/branded for them.
 
azamiryou said:
Rich L said:
probably not ...

You'll need to call the other makers ... Just 'cause a gear has 21 teeth does not at all make it interchangeable with someone else's gear.
Click to expand...

These 7x machines are highly compatible because they are all actually from the same maker. LMS, Micro Mark, Grizzly, Harbor Freight, etc. just choose some options and have it painted/branded for them.
Click to expand...
The Big Dog lathe is made by Yangzhou Real Bull Machinery, not by Sieg. Although they appear to be almost identical, and use many of the same parts, the are not from the same manufacturer. Based on everything I've read, they both have their pluses & minuses.
 
I finally talked with LMS about some technical questions. They were very helpful.

Basically lathes from both Chinese factories are about 99% compatible. Both are comparable quality. I found it surprising they would say that since the lathe they sell is a Sieg, and the Big Dos is a Real Bull.

The 21 tooth gear will indeed work in both. But that was on their website (once I knew where to look).

Other interesting info:

The Big Dog is on sale through the end of the year. I don't know about the HiTorque because I didn't ask. The Microlux sale ends today.

You can change out parts from the Tooling Package from LMS, and just pay the difference. For example, I'm looking at upgrading the QCTP from the one with aluminum tool holders to the one with steel tool holders. (I don't know the part numbers, and their site is down right now).
 
Well, I ordered the Big Dog 7 x 14. I should have it by the end of next week, or early the following week. In looking at reviews & other recommendations, I couldn't find anything to really separate the MicroLux from the Big Dog. Both seem to have their issues, and most of them have been address by the manufacturer. The Big Dog has all metal gears in the headstock. Plastic ones had been a problem (go figure). And the Microlux has a brushless motor that eliminates the hi/low setting.

For me, the deciding factor was the ability to use the full spindle hole (20mm) without having to buy a new 4" chuck. The 3" chuck only has a hole of 9/16th (I think), so long 3/4" blanks can't go through the spindle. Of course, they can be cut, but I can see where some of the long (expensive) rods can be feed through the hole and hopefully reduce some waste. The fact that it came with a steady rest, follow rest, drill chuck, and live center was a bonus. I may not need any of those. Especially since my current live center & drill chuck will work. But it's nice to have the extras.

I didn't see the special on the HiTorque Deluxe before I ordered, but that's ok, my mind was about fried going back and forth. I guess time will tell if I made a good decision. Frankly, as long as it does what I want, I'll be happy. But I am kind of surprised LMS didn't tell me about the sale when I called them. It was around noon central, and I figured the staff would have known about the sale when I called.


azamiryou said:
BSea said:
You can change out parts from the Tooling Package from LMS, and just pay the difference.
Click to expand...

I wish I'd known that when I ordered mine! I guess that's what I get for avoiding the phone and placing orders on web sites as much as possible...
Click to expand...
I'm probably not getting the tooling package now because It includes the drill chuck & center bits. That would give me 3 drill chucks (including the one I have now), and 2 sets of centering bits. But it's nice to know what the options are.
 
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Dustygoose said:
Bob, I may pay you a visit one day if that's ok. I am anxious to see one and possibly get me one too
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Sure, Just give me a few weeks to figure out how the thing works. :confused:

I should have it by Friday. And my LMS order should be in by then too. Maybe we can have 1 of our between meeting meetings in early October.
 
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