qquake
Member
I want to dye a wood blank bright red. What is the best dye and procedure?
Wood dye
- Thread starter qquake
- Start date
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
egnald
Member
A friend of mine used some red Keda dye on maple for some cabinet knobs a couple of years ago. They turned out very bright red and very shiny when finished with spray lacquer. I've been tempted to buy a multi-color Keda dye kit just to experiment with. - Dave
dogcatcher
Member
I use Fiebings leather dye, it comes in every color imaginable. 2 kinds, oil based and alcohol based, I prefer the alcohol based for wood. For leather, I prefer the oil based dyes. If you want a natural wood look dye, search for Homer Dangler dyes for gunstocks. That should lead you to a muzzleloader forums that have a million and one tricks for disguising wood.
Bats
Member
I've had good luck with Keda powdered dyes in the past too (I bought the 5-color pack about five years ago, and most of it's still left - a little goes a long way, especially on small projects), although I haven't used them much on pens. They tend to look a little thin at first, but with multiple applications you can get some nice vivid colors.
sorcerertd
Member
I bought these also. Not sure if Bats is referring to the sample pack, but that's what I bought, and it probably will last almost forever for pen blanks. I've just started experimenting and can say that you probably will want to mix the red pretty strongly and do multiple applications to get it really bright. That's normal with reds, though. (Most of my experience is with food coloring, in actual food, not wood. Pink is easy, red, not so much)
qquake
Member
qquake
Member
Amazon says it can't ship this to me. Must be illegal in California, lie naphtha and denatured alcohol.
qquake
Member
Yep, Fiebing's website says it can't ship to the People's Republik of Kalifornia.
fiebing.com
Leather Dye - Fiebing's
The most recognized penetrating, alcohol-based leather dye in the world. Dries uniformly and mixes easily to create interesting middle tones.
fiebing.com
qquake
Member
I wonder if this would work. It's alcohol based.
dogcatcher
Member
Check on eBay for the Fiebings.
qquake
Member
I did. They won't ship to California.
sorcerertd
Member
That's exactly what I bought. This is my first test using blue and red. More like hot pink, which is why I said go strong with it, but it works OK for this pen. This is soft maple, so YMMV on other woods.
Attachments
dogcatcher
Member
Dharma Trading Company has the Angelus brand of leather dye. I have never used it,
They are in Petaluma California. I saw where someone diluted it with DNA so I am guessing it is alcohol based. If not, I would use an oil base Fiebings if I could get it.
Angelus Leather Dyes
Guaranteed to penetrate leather and form a lasting color which will not peel, crack, or wash off.
www.dharmatrading.com
They are in Petaluma California. I saw where someone diluted it with DNA so I am guessing it is alcohol based. If not, I would use an oil base Fiebings if I could get it.
egnald
Member
Yes, that is the one - Dave
monophoto
Member
Just curious - the Amazon description of the Keda powders say they should be mixed with either water or isopropyl alcohol, while the liquid version can be diluted in DNA.
Is is possible/desirable to mix the powders with DNA?
Is is possible/desirable to mix the powders with DNA?
sorcerertd
Member
Yes, absolutely. I just used rubbing alcohol, but I suspect DNA (fresh stuff anyway) would dry faster and cause less swelling with the lower water content.
CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI
Member
About 20 years ago I had to come up with a pen in blue and orange. Alcohol dyes were used wood was tongue depressors (maple?) complete immersion in the dye solution, a 25" vacuum drawn and maintained for 2 days. The outcome while satisfactory to the end user did not please me. The dye failed to penetrate well. Uneven. Outside was dark, inside while colored was light. Interesting effect. Made many extra pieces, good thing I did. 30-40% twists, bow, warping, defects revealed. After the requisite quality control, glue up went well, pen finished well after thorough drying. Our daughter still has it.
Bats
Member
Yup, as the sorcerer said, it works just dandy (not that the sorcerer said "dandy", but he was probably thinking it... maybe? who knows the mind of these sorcerous types?). In fact, with the blue I've found that you have to mix it with a little alcohol first to get it to dissolve properly.
The directions even cover "Mixing the Keda dye powder as alcohol base" as one of the options - although they say "We recommend using a 20% water to 80% alcohol blend to ensure proper dissolving of dyes".
monophoto
Member
Let me clarify (and extend) the original question here - - -
The information published by Keda talks about using water and/or isopropyl alcohol (ie, rubbing alcohol) when mixing powdered dyes to make a standalone dye solution, but go on to state that users want to use Keda dyes to tint lacquer, shellac or other solvent-based finishes should use denatured alcohol or lacquer thinner in combination with the liquid versions of Keda dyes. The liquid dyes are more expensive than the powdered dyes. However, the Keda instructions don't specifically address the use of denature alcohol in combination with the powdered dyes when used to create a standalone dye solution.
I routinely keep and use denatured alcohol in my shop, but I don't keep isopropyl alcohol. I know that isopropyl is readily available where I live (in any pharmacy), but the question I was asking was is it possible to use the denatured alcohol that I already have on hand, or must I purchase something different for use with the powdered dyes to make a standalone dye solution.
Isopropyl alcohol is also not drinkable and therefore not taxed as a beverage - it is mainly used as a medical disinfectant. Denatured alcohol is a solvent made by combining methyl and ethyl alcohols, with the methyl alcohol added to make it undrinkable (and therefore not subject to the taxes imposed on beverage alcohols). In many jurisdictions, it is possible to purchase pure ethyl alcohol ('Everclear') which is drinkable. So a question someone might have is can pure ethyl alcohol be used with powdered Keda dyes?
sorcerertd
Member
I hadn't really thought about this initially, but it might depend on what your DNA was "denatured" with. Acetone, turpentine, naphtha, some proprietary mixture? I can only speak theoretically in saying that it should work fine for dissolving and even the dyeing process, but may leave a residue after the alcohol evaporates which could affect your finish (or yellow over time?). Might be easier to buy a dollar bottle of rubbing alcohol than to do all the research.
Bats
Member
Y'know, somehow the distinction in the directions never actually registered on me (being a bat of very little brain) and I always ended up just using DNA, because it was what I usually had in reach (I even have a bottle of 98% isopropyl in the shop for exactly these situations... I just always forget it on the shelf).
So DNA definitely worked fine in place of isopropyl for initially dissolving the blue dye, but I can't comment on the other colors, or on using it as the primary solvent, since I usually use the dyes with water. Why do I use water instead of alcohol when it does horrible things like raising the grain? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea. I started that way, and it never occurred to me to do differently. I'll have to try it next time.
Nitpick: Denatured alcohol is a solvent made by combining ethyl alcohol with a denaturant. That denaturant is often, but not exclusively methyl alcohol. I've seen DNA that used Bittrex before, and a couple years back I tracked down another methanol-free DNA (sold only in California, although I was later told by a Californian that they couldn't actually get it) that used some other denaturant I can't seem to recall.
Another question someone might have is "does it matter"? Because after drinking that Everclear, you're in no condition to be in the shop anyhow.
But assuming you do stagger into the shop with vision and motor functions still somewhat intact, based on what I saw of powdered blue Keda+DNA, I'd say probably. It seems like (but bear in mind, I flunked* high school chemistry) all it should really take is a carrier that can hold the dye in solution that won't destroy or impair it, and that can later evaporate from the wood. The blue was definitely soluble in DNA, and seemed to work just fine afterwards... but I only had test patches to judge from - it was destined for mixing into a purplish maroon. So in my professional opinion as a totally-not-a-chemist, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work... but that's only a qualified "probably".
[ * I actually got a 1% in chemistry - as credit for the one day I showed up and was attentive before getting in a massive fight with the teacher and never going back. #notachemist ]
Bats
Member
Now that's something I hadn't considered (must've had too much of the Everclear). I'd been thinking DNA only used a couple percent denaturant, but looking at the MSDS for Klean Strip DNA (because it's what I've got a gallon of in the shop) it looks like it may even be mostly methanol - it only specifies 30-60% ethanol and 30-60% methanol, with .1-1% methyl methyl isobutyl ketone.
Then again, if the DNA was going to leave any residue and/or affect finishes, people wouldn't use it for wiping down their wood between sanding and finishing... so the big question is still whether it might somehow break down or impair the dye.
Maybe if I get bored later I'll try mixing some up and see what happens (without water and mixing colors in play) - at least in a short-term test.
monophoto
Member
Perhaps I should explain why I asked about using Everclear with these dyes. Bottom line is that it was just curiosity based on a couple of experiences I have had with pure ethanol.
Ethanol is used in some 'alternative' photographic processes, specifically the 'wet plate collodion' process. I do quite a bit of photography, and used to run my own darkroom. I did experiment with some of the alternative processes, but I never tried collodion. But did meet a young darkroom assistant at a workshop who was doing collodion and had a problem buying the Everclear that he needed because he was underage.
But the other point of reference is that many years ago, I traveled pretty extensively in Arab countries where alcoholic beverages were not allowed. It was not uncommon for expatriate residents in those countries (especially the Brits) to run their own stills. The result was that you were often offered drinks in private social situations, but the choice was limited to either 'white' or 'brown' - 'white' was essentially pure ethanol diluted with water, while 'brown' was made by soaking oak chips in 'white' to add color and flavor. Both were pretty nasty - but you didn't notice after the first sip.
Incidentally, there were speciality businesses who routinely shipped merchandise to those countries using oak chips as packing material. The merchandise was junk - their real business was selling oak chips!
Ethanol is used in some 'alternative' photographic processes, specifically the 'wet plate collodion' process. I do quite a bit of photography, and used to run my own darkroom. I did experiment with some of the alternative processes, but I never tried collodion. But did meet a young darkroom assistant at a workshop who was doing collodion and had a problem buying the Everclear that he needed because he was underage.
But the other point of reference is that many years ago, I traveled pretty extensively in Arab countries where alcoholic beverages were not allowed. It was not uncommon for expatriate residents in those countries (especially the Brits) to run their own stills. The result was that you were often offered drinks in private social situations, but the choice was limited to either 'white' or 'brown' - 'white' was essentially pure ethanol diluted with water, while 'brown' was made by soaking oak chips in 'white' to add color and flavor. Both were pretty nasty - but you didn't notice after the first sip.
Incidentally, there were speciality businesses who routinely shipped merchandise to those countries using oak chips as packing material. The merchandise was junk - their real business was selling oak chips!
egnald
Member
I wonder if the Keda dye denatures the Everclear. Perhaps the leftovers could be used to make some very colorful cocktails.
Dave
PS On the more serious side, I checked the MSDS for the Sunnyside brand of Denatured Alcohol that I use and they indicate that it is made up of Ethanol - no less than 30% and Methanol no less than 30%, and that the exact ratio is a trade secret. Coming from industry, I would suspect that it is mostly Methanol because Ethanol is more expensive to sustainably produce, especially considering the commodity value of Corn. (It takes about 26 lbs. of Corn to make 1 Gallon of Ethanol).
Dave
PS On the more serious side, I checked the MSDS for the Sunnyside brand of Denatured Alcohol that I use and they indicate that it is made up of Ethanol - no less than 30% and Methanol no less than 30%, and that the exact ratio is a trade secret. Coming from industry, I would suspect that it is mostly Methanol because Ethanol is more expensive to sustainably produce, especially considering the commodity value of Corn. (It takes about 26 lbs. of Corn to make 1 Gallon of Ethanol).
Todd in PA
Member
I'm glad that I searched and read this after buying the Keda powders. I'll get some rubbing alcohol.
My other question is whether you dye the wood after turning, or dunk the blank (vacuum?) and then turn it.
Do you just mix what you need, or make a gallon of each color and use it as you go?
Based on the conversation here, I assume this is NOT the stuff you'd use to color cactus juice. ?
My other question is whether you dye the wood after turning, or dunk the blank (vacuum?) and then turn it.
Do you just mix what you need, or make a gallon of each color and use it as you go?
Based on the conversation here, I assume this is NOT the stuff you'd use to color cactus juice. ?
Bats
Member
I haven't used it a lot (or recently), but I always dyed after turning - often with several passes of dye/sand/dye different color (or dye, wipe, dye, for a richer single color)
Just make what you need, since it has an expiration date once mixed.
I've never heard of it being used that way. I sort of doubt it would dissolve properly in cactus juice, and water (and, I assume, alcohol) in cactus juice is a no-no.
monophoto
Member
I bought the five-color Keda kit on a whim. It does the job. Multiple applications may be required to get any real depth of color, and because it does raise grain, some light abrasion using a gray Scotchbrite pad may be needed between coats. That said, a small item like a pen doesn't use up much dye, so that five-color trial kit will last a long time.
As I say - I bought it just to try it out, and it did work for me. Having said that, I also concluded that I prefer the natural color of the wood rather than some kind of psychedelic interpretation. But the yellow, brown and black colors applied thinly might enhance natural colors under some circumstances.
As I say - I bought it just to try it out, and it did work for me. Having said that, I also concluded that I prefer the natural color of the wood rather than some kind of psychedelic interpretation. But the yellow, brown and black colors applied thinly might enhance natural colors under some circumstances.